[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 4.x

[Shuulo]

Edit: Btw, I just updated my personal Buzzard from 3x PAC's - very good weapon - to 2x HEPT and 1x PAC. However, the HEPT's do far less damage than the PAC's until all weapons overheat. In the stats the HEPT looks to be better per-shot, but is killed by its RoF. Is there any scenario in which the HEPT is better than the PAC in real term? In my tests, vs. S and M-Class targets, replacing two of my PAC's for HEPT's has hugely increased the time it takes to bring down a target's shields - the Buzzard in my force 'em to bail ship of choice. If HEPT's had a higher RoF with less heat build-up per shot, they'd be great.... I was expecting green blobs of death incidentally lol. I'm aware the HEPT does some hull damage through shields, but that's tiny.

Scoob.

Damage in encyclopedia is DPS, not damage per shot, HEPT is generally better vs slower fighters and larger targets, its heavy weapon for a reason, but if shots land it makes short work of the target.

[Scoob]

Damage in encyclopedia is DPS, not damage per shot, HEPT is generally better vs slower fighters and larger targets, its heavy weapon for a reason, but if shots land it makes short work of the target.

Thanks for clarifying.

I was in a Buzzard, attacking an SCA Minotaur Raider. My hits were landing consistently, yet it took far longer to get his shield down with just 3x PAC. I can't explain why the HEPT's were doing negligible damage, though I've also watched AI-controlled ships with HEPT's - though I didn't know they were HEPT's at the time - firing, accurately, and not appearing to do much damage. Most odd.

I changed back to an all PAC loadout and the ship is much more effective again. I'll test some more.

Edit: Just to add, I too can confirm that Stations are MUCH more effective In Sector vs Out of Sector. I'd been watching a station for a while OOS, and it was taking a pounding. I go IS, external view on it and it's had various modules taken out by a Xenon K. However, as I was watching it owned the K quite convincingly. It wasn't heavily armed, it had one working PPC Turret and a few lighter weapons.

Scoob.

[Shuulo]

I will test OOS stations more, I tested mostly fleets vs fleets lately

edit: next mini-patch may have some improvements to this, damage application from slow/static objects was not large enough

[Scoob]

I will test OOS stations more, I tested mostly fleets vs fleets lately

edit: next mini-patch may have some improvements to this, damage application from slow/static objects was not large enough

Cool. I think that'll help a lot. The only stations that seem to be able to hold their own OOS are the larger ones such as Wharfs. Regular stations really struggle OOS or low attention. I was watching a station surrounded by Fighters and they just weren't taking damage. F3 view on the station and fighters start to fall like flies.

Scoob.

[maseren]

Shuulo, quick report regarding Xenon activity. I know you have set it that only 2 Xenon come out of a gate at a time. However, this is not what i am seeing. I have seen 3 come out, a K, V and an I, and just now, i saw two Vs, and two Ks i believe. They where "somewhat staggered" but its almost like the AI is finding ways to bypass what you told it. I guess perhaps they are not coming in as a "fleet" but they are definitely coming in together which will definitely feel like a fleet. There is no real delay between them either.

[ScandyNav]

However, this is not what i am seeing. I have seen 3 come out, a K, V and an I, and just now, i saw two Vs, and two Ks i believe.

Changes will not be seen right after the patch. At first AI will throw for several hours everything it got already built. Me too noticed that right after the patch there was simultaneous I-fleets attacks on several directions.

[Shuulo]

Shuulo, quick report regarding Xenon activity. I know you have set it that only 2 Xenon come out of a gate at a time. However, this is not what i am seeing. I have seen 3 come out, a K, V and an I, and just now, i saw two Vs, and two Ks i believe. They where "somewhat staggered" but its almost like the AI is finding ways to bypass what you told it. I guess perhaps they are not coming in as a "fleet" but they are definitely coming in together which will definitely feel like a fleet. There is no real delay between them either.

The change was only for Xenon Is, not Ks and Vs.
There will be 2 Is attacking fleets (that also include 2K/V as escort) in the galaxy at one point in time, before it was 3-5 so too much, and there are around 18-22 K/Vs in the galaxy in attacking fleets. Those can join forces sometimes so you basically see a fleet of I (with escorts) and a fleet of K/V.
Also, if save is old it will not just delete those fleets that were already built, they must either be destroyed or de-spawn after a a long time.

[Shuulo]

Version 2.1.9
Fully compatible with previous saves.
Smallish update this time, but important for OOS balance. Note that While I tried to bring OOS calculations as close as possible through numerous tests there are still some outliers that are impossible to fix due to the nature how OOS is being calculated (like a bit too survivable M ships in some situations or when ship with turrets can apply damage to 15 fighters at the same time), only Egosoft can fix those and IIRC they have this in their plans.

Notable changes:
- Xenon P damage, health and speed nerfed a bit.
- Fixed modifiers omission that lead to stations did not deal enough damage to capital ships in OOS.
- Another OOS pass trying to fix some outliers
- Added Cormorant Vanguard to Teladi Warfs (making MIN love to get that ship felt mostly like grind and not something I enjoyed really.)

Miscellaneous:
- updated jobs for DAGO compatibility (missed few last time)

[maseren]

Version 2.1.9
Fully compatible with previous saves.
Smallish update this time, but important for OOS balance. Note that While I tried to bring OOS calculations as close as possible through numerous tests there are still some outliers that are impossible to fix due to the nature how OOS is being calculated (like a bit too survivable M ships in some situations or when ship with turrets can apply damage to 15 fighters at the same time), only Egosoft can fix those and IIRC they have this in their plans.

Notable changes:
- Xenon P damage, health and speed nerfed a bit.
- Fixed modifiers omission that lead to stations did not deal enough damage to capital ships in OOS.
- Another OOS pass trying to fix some outliers
- Added Cormorant Vanguard to Teladi Warfs (making MIN love to get that ship felt mostly like grind and not something I enjoyed really.)

Miscellaneous:
- updated jobs for DAGO compatibility (missed few last time)

very cool. Thanks Shuulo. Will apply it today and report, though my stations are kinda insane, so i won't see much of a change.

[maseren]

Shuulo, wanted to ask you, is it ok for us to discuss ships etc... on here? i don't want to confuse the reasoning for the post, but VRO has become such a big thing i really want to discuss with others how they're using their ships, their preferred ships, what their experiences have been like with the different turrets etc...

let me know and thanks.

[Shuulo]

Shuulo, wanted to ask you, is it ok for us to discuss ships etc... on here? i don't want to confuse the reasoning for the post, but VRO has become such a big thing i really want to discuss with others how they're using their ships, their preferred ships, what their experiences have been like with the different turrets etc...

let me know and thanks.

sure, this is the point of the forum and I can grab some feedback from discussion as well

[maseren]

Alright, here is my thoughts right now.

Currently, i do use the XR shippack, so will avoid any discussion regarding those ships, though i love them and prefer their looks to the vanilla.

So for defense platforums, i find myself leaning more towards beams ie. heavy lances, generally DPS is based on chance to hit, and beams, in general let's be honest, by definition are not meant to miss, yes they are less damage, but they don't miss. With lances, its consistent strikes, even against smaller ships. Yes I don't kill big ships as fast, but i also never miss them.

Where i get conflicted to be honest is the smaller turrets, i tend to lean more towards cyclone, and ciws, again for similar reasons as above, they don't miss, or less likely to miss, OR they're constant firepower. I find myself hating having to wait to be able to shoot again, turrets or otherwise.

Finally for front weapons on Mediums and smalls, again I go beams and rapid fire machine gun types, like neutron gatling.

Any thoughts guys? have you guys found a better combination. I have been considering trying argon's PPCs for heavy turrets, and umm, AM turrets? i can't remember the exact name, throws an energy bolt i think.

[ScandyNav]

HLTs are for sure best option for defense platforms. I even glad that ai don't use em.
For personal use ships: AlphaMD+Reapers or AlphaMD+Storm cannons. But ai-driven ships can't use properly these highROF-ships because they have to maintain target tracking for a long time. AI is bad at this.
AI is good with alpha-damage weapons. They miss 4 times, but critically strikes on 5th. So for ai-diven ships weapons will be: CIG, Fusion repeater, Storm cannon. Maybe plus Plasma Incinerator.
L turrets for ships? I don't know. They are all good. But my preference is HMDs, because of no-clip firing type. Green "Slasher" mod turns on beast mode on no-clip weapons. PPC and Gauss also benefits greatly from this type of mod.
M turrets. Well...They are mostly bad, at least when InSector. CIWS, Cyclone, Plasma are quite ok though.

[blackice85]

HLTs are for sure best option for defense platforms. I even glad that ai don't use em.

Heavy Lance Turrets I assume? I like the idea of them, but I feel like they have a pretty long cool down, and the first shots from any turret seems likely to miss, so I'm not sure. Maybe that's not the case for defense platforms though.

[ScandyNav]

HLTs are for sure best option for defense platforms. I even glad that ai don't use em.

Heavy Lance Turrets I assume? I like the idea of them, but I feel like they have a pretty long cool down, and the first shots from any turret seems likely to miss, so I'm not sure. Maybe that's not the case for defense platforms though.

Yeah, not the case when it comes to def.platforms. Low ROF is nothing because of 20km range.

[blackice85]

HLTs are for sure best option for defense platforms. I even glad that ai don't use em.

Heavy Lance Turrets I assume? I like the idea of them, but I feel like they have a pretty long cool down, and the first shots from any turret seems likely to miss, so I'm not sure. Maybe that's not the case for defense platforms though.

Yeah, not the case when it comes to def.platforms. Low ROF is nothing because of 20km range.

I see then. The 20km range is largely why I was interested in them originally, that and the potential accuracy. Landing hits beats everything else in my opinion. For my ships I tried the Gauss turret which I liked but was still a bit slow, Fusion Burst seems to land a lot of hits against targets big and small. Still need to check out the others, particularly the other race specific ones.

[maseren]

What about argon PPCs?? Anyone have experience with those?

Those and the split hull peircing turrets.

[maseren]

Shuulo! Something just occured to me, the khaak installations, are they always within Xenon space? If so, this might be why i have never seen one, with them being destructible now, the Xenon must have destroyed them i am guessing??

[Rastuasi]

Shuulo! Something just occured to me, the khaak installations, are they always within Xenon space? If so, this might be why i have never seen one, with them being destructible now, the Xenon must have destroyed them i am guessing??

No they are not, some are in normal space, there's one in Paranid and one in Teladi space that would always attract those fleets from actually attacking xenon.

[Buzz2005]

destroying khaak stations does not stop khaak, they still spawn in those spots and via encounters