Trump

[Vertigo 7]

Is it just me or is 2019 shaping up to be the year of corruption made manifest? Not just Trump, but the world at large...

[Santi]

This may well have been what Trump was thinking, but that's because he's a coward, an idiot and (as inferred) very bad at poker.
If Erdogan said this then it was a bluff, there is NO way he would have knowingly attacked American troops. NONE.

The US has warned Turkey that it has a right to self-defence as the Pentagon confirmed US forces near the town of Kobane came under Turkish artillery fire on Friday evening. The Guardian

A near miss, could have gone the other way too, and further confirmation that the presence of USA troops will not stop Turkish armed forces to pound the Kurdish army.

Following on the Timeline of the events leading to the Turkish offensive, a truce has been brokered by the USA as to implement the security zone or buffer zone, between Kurdish territories and Turkey as was agreed roughly in August 2019.

Erdogan is keeping the pressure up, making a declaration that if the buffer zone is not implemented, as it was agreed with the USA and the autonomous Kurdish authorities, Turkey will carry on with attacking the Kurds, he also declares that President Trump was informed of the Turkish offensive on a phone call three days before they launched the attack. Source Reuters

Disclaimer, those are the words of Erdogan, on top of the military clashes between both armies, there is a propaganda war as well, in order to gain support for their cause, not only internally but also internationally.

[Chips]

The thing is, people act like it was Trump saying "troops out" and THEN Turkey said "okay, we go". Incredibly unlikely. They can't mobilise a force to invade in 72 hours. Or even a week. It's taken time to build up troops, it's been ongoing for months in planning and preparation with intelligence and recon. They also have recent history of doing operations over the border. They likely see the presence of a few US troops (a handful, literally) as attempts to deny them their claimed "right to defend themselves" - and in that you'd have to ask why we deem it not acceptable for them to do so, whereas it is acceptable for us lot to do that. It's not even our back yard being interfered in by a super power being the world police from across an ocean.

Timeline of actions:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syri ... SKBN1WQ274

They've said they're not going to listen to US threats either - so likely just told Trump straight up what they were going to do and when. Trump turned around and pulled out troops (they probably just said 72 hours we go regardless) and... we get to where we are.
https://www.france24.com/en/20191008-tu ... ria-border

Unsure why anyone thinks Trump had any influence in anything here. Trump isn't to blame for Turkey's actions, they were going to go in anyway. Trump may be seen to abandon them, but his only other option was to suddenly start either arming them with weapons capable of fighting a fellow NATO member, or start fighting a NATO member. Neither of these are remotely acceptable whatsoever. Removing the handful of US troops in the entire border area is to minimise their risk. I seriously doubt their presence would make any difference to Turkey's actions.

So is the manner Trump did it really bad? It may seem so, but he couldn't do anything about it. I really dislike Trump, but this could have been Obama and it'd have happened.

[Vertigo 7]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Trump start a war with Turkey. There are alternatives to fighting. This is like the 4th time I've said this now. Trump could have relocated the ISIS prisoners and evacuated civilians from the combat area. He had what, 2 months or more to plan that and work out the details with the Kurds? Surely that would be a much better alternative to abandoning them. If Turkey were to protest that, it wouldn't have amounted to shit. But, Trump had more important things to do than to worry about our allies.

[Santi]

And this is the 5th time I said it. It is up to the Kurdish government to move the prisoners and evacuate the cities. I understand that you think that the USA owns the Kurdistan and can boss people around at will. But that is not the case here.

[Vertigo 7]

Do you think that it could have been discussed? How difficult would it have been to say "Hey, Turkey is going to invade. We can help you save lives or you can stay and get slaughtered, but we're going to have to leave."? ffs dude, I know we're arrogant but give us some credit.

Not even offered, not even considered. Trump spent the entire time sitting on his fat orange ass and did nothing. You can be apathetic about that if you want to, I wont, though.

Also, don't claim to know what I think. You don't know me. If you want to ask me what I think, I'll be happy to tell you.

[felter]

And this is the 5th time I said it. It is up to the Kurdish government to move the prisoners and evacuate the cities. I understand that you think that the USA owns the Kurdistan and can boss people around at will. But that is not the case here.

And I will say this again as you seem to be ignoring it.

If Trump knew that Turkey was going to attack, then that makes the matter even worse than it is. He sat on his ass and did nothing until he surprised everyone by announcing he was pulling the troops out. Remember no one else knew what was going on or was about to happen, as everyone said including military advisors personal advisors what are you doing and don't do it. They are all on record saying these things, no one else seemed to know what was going on which is even worse than doing nothing, as he didn't even tell anyone else what was going on.

You seem to be defending Trump with a flawed defence by saying he knew, but no one else did. So if he knew why did he do nothing, why did he not even tell anyone else about it, why did he leave his allies blind and in the lurch.

You say it was up to the Kurds to evacuate, but seeing as what you are saying and Trump was the only person that seemed to know what was going to happen, how were the Kurds meant to know they were about to be sacrificed by the Americans. What your defence for Trump is, is actually the worst thing he could have done, but you seem to think it was the best thing he could have done.

[Santi]

The nobody knew, is what is not correct. Everybody knew what was going to happen because it was not a sudden event, only two things were unknown, I will go into them last.

We knew in advance what caused the Turkish attack, the agreement between Turkey and Kurds brokered in August to create a buffer zone in their border was not happening because Kurdish fighters did not vacate the zone.

Everybody knew that Turkey was preparing a military operation to create such a buffer zone. We knew because Erdogan said so, and they did a military build up in the border of tens of thousands of troops, something that is quite noticeable and was reported by the press several times. The Kurds knew that Turkey was preparing an operation, because they are not idiots, and did prepare for it, fortifying, build up of troops and supplies to defend their territory if necessary.

@Vertigo7
I take your offer, why do you think in the build up of forces, the Kurdish government didn't evacuate or moved the prisoners away as a preventive measure?

What we did not know:
- The day the operation will commence, in this things you cannot wing it, well you can, but then normally you get a disorganized disaster. Not knowing the day is normal, it is considered a very poor practice to let your enemy know when you are attacking.

- What Trump will do with American troops present in the future battlefield? This we didn't know it is true. He had several options:

He could stand with his Kurdish allies and fight Turkey. That is the very stupid option.
He could stand and not tell Turkey were Americans troops were, hoping that Turkey will not attack (bluffing). The stupid option because is giving the excuse to Turkey in case it hit American troops. Also it is a rubbish way to use your troops.
He could stand and tell Turkey the exact location of American troops (small bluff). The risky option because Turkey will just set a no fire zone in those locations and carry on, then Kurdish troops that are no idiots, will place troops in the no fire zone to fire back, and suddenly, there is a big chance that Americans will get hit.
He could withdraw American troops and let Turkey and Kurds sort themselves out without risk of being sucked into a conflict that has nothing to do with America. The smart option.

Feel free to discuss or add to those choices and the reasoning behind it.

[Bishop149]

This may well have been what Trump was thinking, but that's because he's a coward, an idiot and (as inferred) very bad at poker.
If Erdogan said this then it was a bluff, there is NO way he would have knowingly attacked American troops. NONE.

The US has warned Turkey that it has a right to self-defence as the Pentagon confirmed US forces near the town of Kobane came under Turkish artillery fire on Friday evening. The Guardian

A near miss, could have gone the other way too, and further confirmation that the presence of USA troops will not stop Turkish armed forces to pound the Kurdish army.

Nope.
They fired a little too close to an American base, were told to stop and they did so.
It's proof of the exact opposite. That Turkish forces will stand down upon instruction from American command.
From the Kurdish perspective I'd imagine the strategy employed was: "Use the Americans for cover!" and it sounds like it worked a treat.

[BugMeister]

Betcha, the loon says his rights are being violated by the impeachment and then insists on being either the judge or jury in his own trial..??

[Vertigo 7]

@Vertigo7
I take your offer, why do you think in the build up of forces, the Kurdish government didn't evacuate or moved the prisoners away as a preventive measure?

failure of leadership would be my guess.

What we did not know:
- The day the operation will commence, in this things you cannot wing it, well you can, but then normally you get a disorganized disaster. Not knowing the day is normal, it is considered a very poor practice to let your enemy know when you are attacking.

- What Trump will do with American troops present in the future battlefield? This we didn't know it is true. He had several options:

He could stand with his Kurdish allies and fight Turkey. That is the very stupid option.
He could stand and not tell Turkey were Americans troops were, hoping that Turkey will not attack (bluffing). The stupid option because is giving the excuse to Turkey in case it hit American troops. Also it is a rubbish way to use your troops.
He could stand and tell Turkey the exact location of American troops (small bluff). The risky option because Turkey will just set a no fire zone in those locations and carry on, then Kurdish troops that are no idiots, will place troops in the no fire zone to fire back, and suddenly, there is a big chance that Americans will get hit.
He could withdraw American troops and let Turkey and Kurds sort themselves out without risk of being sucked into a conflict that has nothing to do with America. The smart option.

Feel free to discuss or add to those choices and the reasoning behind it.

He could have moved out of the "buffer" zone and encouraged the Kurds to do the same. No one gets hit. The best option.

[fiksal]

He could stand with his Kurdish allies and fight Turkey. That is the very stupid option.
He could stand and not tell Turkey were Americans troops were, hoping that Turkey will not attack (bluffing). The stupid option because is giving the excuse to Turkey in case it hit American troops. Also it is a rubbish way to use your troops.
He could stand and tell Turkey the exact location of American troops (small bluff). The risky option because Turkey will just set a no fire zone in those locations and carry on, then Kurdish troops that are no idiots, will place troops in the no fire zone to fire back, and suddenly, there is a big chance that Americans will get hit.
He could withdraw American troops and let Turkey and Kurds sort themselves out without risk of being sucked into a conflict that has nothing to do with America. The smart option.

Feel free to discuss or add to those choices and the reasoning behind it.

That also depends on the objective.

Was the objective to let Turkey kill off kurds, and have 100s of prisoners flee? If so, then the was accomplished it appears.

From what I can see that was the only objective. Which makes Trump's "stable genius" letter all the more interesting to read.


If there was another objective to protect kurds, could've done it. Could've even make them an independent state if you really wanted, no-one would be able to challenge it.

[felter]

So today it was the turn of Ambassador Bill Taylor Ambassador Bill Taylor to give evidence to the Trump impeachment inquiry and it didn't go to well for Trump. But not just Trump as what Bill Taylor said was kind of the opposite to the statements Ambassador Gordon Sondland made earlier now I'm not sure if those statements were made to the senate inquiry if it was is that no a jailable offence to lie to one of these inquiries, I think it is. It wasn't just Sondland though that he has painted a target on he also accused US envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Trumps lawyer Rudy Giuliani along with Gordon Sondland of creating an informal channel which was used along with the withholding funds to Ukraine to as he put it.

"Our relationship with Ukraine was being fundamentally undermined by an irregular, informal channel of US, policy-making and by the withholding of vital security assistance for domestic political reasons,"

Looking at all of this Volker, Perry, Giuliani and Sondland are all going to end up in the Gaol at some point. I suspect they will all be hoping for a pardon from Trump, as they are all doing suspicious things on Trumps behest.

BBC coverage

[RegisterMe]

Article 1 Section 9....

"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office or Profit or Trust under them shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from King, Prince, or foreign State.

[RegisterMe]

Oh, hi, ermm.

[Vertigo 7]

Oh, hi, ermm.

"All roads with you end with Putin."

She called it.

[Vertigo 7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IimKh0qblR4

Uhh ohh... signs that Moscow Mitch is pulling away from Trump. I think it's pretty telling that the republican senators are slowly inching away. It may just be wishful thinking on my part but it feels to me that every day goes by, Trump is loosing more and more support from congress. I have a feeling it won't be long now before articles of impeachment are voted on and the full slew of charges and evidence against Trump is laid bare.

[felter]

The look on McConnell's face at the end of that video, you couldn't pay him to make that look. That was the face a pure fear, I reckon he had to change his pants afterwords. He is now beginning to see the end of the road and the realization that Trump will sell him out in the blink of an eye, for his own personal gratification.

[Vertigo 7]

This is really going to be a test of will for Trump. He's never once admitted at any point in his life of making a mistake or being wrong. Even if he resigns to avoid the impeachment trial, he's still going to face a shit load of criminal and civil cases against him.

[pjknibbs]

This is really going to be a test of will for Trump. He's never once admitted at any point in his life of making a mistake or being wrong. Even if he resigns to avoid the impeachment trial, he's still going to face a shit load of criminal and civil cases against him.

I like that you give him enough credit to assume that his total disconnect with reality is down to strong willpower...