Egosoft had to release X4 unfinished?

[Kaeltheras]

Oh boy this is a fun thread!

I think this has been stated enough, but here it goes again:
You either like it or you don't.
You have reasons/opinions for both.
I received a fully usable game, with all the listed features included. I can build/fight/think/trade.
I have found bugs, reported some, and many have already been addressed or straight up fixed.
Do I want a refund? Nope

If you want a refund, go for it. No one's stopping you, but before you do leave a list of things you'd like changed, bugs that you found or your just general reason for finding the game not delivering what it promised. Hopefully this can be used to improve or fix problems that you found in the game.

It seems like 72% of people found this game acceptable on release according to steam user review rating (at the time of posting). If that big of a percentile took the time to rate (which they can change whenever) it as a positive experience they probably didn't think the game was unfinished.

Also to touch on the "early access" "open beta" tags people throwing out there. Why? What's the point in that. No new game in modern history has been released that has not had to have some bug fix or issue that came up. that's exactly what's been going on here since release.

[Orthanc]

Also to touch on the "early access" "open beta" tags people throwing out there. Why? What's the point in that. No new game in modern history has been released that has not had to have some bug fix or issue that came up. that's exactly what's been going on here since release.

Yeah sure, some bugs. I have seen almost every release (Rebirth was a nogo due to the one ship restriction) from Egosoft but frankly this takes the cake in my opinion. I really want to support them, as they cater a niche I really like. But this is really really bad this time.
There are so many things not done or implemented that it is beyond belief. And they could have easily been tested.
- Traders and Exploration, AI in general takes just ONE right click and 30 minutes of time to see they are not working
- PlayerHQ and I want to stress PLAYER, the one place the player can go and call rightfully his, cannot be reached by the AI pilots. They get stuck in the rock. Unbelievable to me. How the f can you not notice and not fix that.

I really begin to question wether or not anyone at Egosoft has actually played the game before release. A lot of stuff just manifests itself a couple of hours in, sure but I hate to say it, it is the first time I regret paying money for a product of theirs. I feel that I have been intentionally handed a broken product by a company that I really liked to support. But this shit show is beyond belief. Yes the devs work hard, no doubt. But not even the patches do what has been promised a lot of the time and that is a major difference to earlier releases. Do I think this game has been rushed? Definitley. It came for me somewhat out of nowhere on my steam front page. Should I have waited to purchase? I guess so. I will be smarter next time.

I do not buy EA titles for quite a while now, because of the companies ethics. It pains me, but it seems Egosoft follows this route as well. There would have been so many different ways nowadays to adress an early release. Early Access, open Beta, name it what have you. Just release it cheaper, slap a fiver onto the DLC, heck even crowdfund. Everything would have been better then what they delivered.

I cannot trade as mechanics are broken, I cannot fight as despite patch 1.30 the xenons in my save are all but destroyed having 1 Destroyer, 1 solar power plant and a couple of defense stations left. And I think it has been done to me on purpose by the company. This is a sad day and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. But seeing my station miners slacking of in space as my HQ that I only can watch from afar (because of acute in sector asteroidtis) ran out of ore just kind of tilted me over.


EDIT: Typos

[kgkosio]

I pre-release purchased the game plus DLC for $75 (base game was $50). Due to the holidays, I haven't been able to play for a significant number of hours. During that limited time, I haven't encountered any bugs. I have battled several pirates and 3 or 4 xenon in a single battle (at least 2 waves).

This is the first Egosoft game I have played at release since X2. I expect there will be a few bugs, but at least I know the bugs will be fixed. This may be part of Egosofts cash flow problems, but I trust Egosoft to complete and expand the game after release.

Why did I pre-release purchase a game that I knew would contain bugs? I know Egosoft will fix them. I purchased games from Microsoft and EA that had day one bugs that were never fixed. Many of their games never received a single patch. How about the many unfortunate souls that purchase "Games for Windows Live" games that are now unplayable.

As far as Early Access games go... My experience has been: Release a demo, rewrite the demo, redo the graphics on the demo, rewrite the demo, convert the demo to VR, rewrite the demo, for a game that I paid for early acess five years ago.

[Kaeltheras]

@Orthanc
Sorry you had run into issues that seem to completely bork your game : /
I have not yet seen a bug or issue that's made the game unplayable or not enjoyable.
I've had several (4 if I remember) AI ships dock at my PHQ since it was built that I've watched while in system. I don't use it for anything other than a solar farm, but it seems to be turning a profit off that.

IDK why it "came out of nowhere on your steam front page" I've seen it on my recommended upcoming titles list months ago.
I will agree that it was rushed out before the X-max holidays, but it doesn't feel like an game that's missing major core components/unfinished, but again, those are my opinions and it won't apply to all.

Im sure many of the bugs will get fixed, and If they do not get address or fixed, I'll post my criticism then.

from my personal experience, (I started x2 after release) I tried X3 R /TC/AP and XR all @ their release and I will say for certain, this was the best experience I've had. No game breaking bugs (that i've run into yet) at 1.00. I've seen what they've done in the past, and will change my OPINION if I need to.

TL;DR:
Everyone's experience with X4 has been different, with some people unfortunately running into game breaking bugs, Since I haven't I'm personally happy with my game. Hopefully those bugs some people are facing get patched quickly so they can also enjoy X4.

[Taramafor]

I will agree that it was rushed out before the X-max holidays, but it doesn't feel like an game that's missing major core components/unfinished, but again, those are my opinions and it won't apply to all.

There's opinions and then there's facts. and the simple fact is that weapon descriptions are missing altogether in the shops.

I consider that VERY major.

[Keris]

I miss the beautifull x:rebirth maps, that long highways throught some sectors and long superhighways showing you the beauty of systems. Plutarch controlled starting system with cracked open planet and some sectors inside, blak hole in one of argon systems, xenon sectors with spiral shaped highways. Albion system in ruins... I loved that maps. X4 look empty in comparison (im not talking about lack of wars and big quests and main story).

[MrFiction]

I got what I expected, paid full price for an unfinished game. But I'm not complaining, I'm playing it a bit now and will return after a few years when it's expanded and fixed.

It's understandable money becomes an issue at some point, I hope after a year or so this game will be a classic and bring in new players to support Egosoft.

[fallenwizard]

I miss the beautifull x:rebirth maps, that long highways throught some sectors and long superhighways showing you the beauty of systems. Plutarch controlled starting system with cracked open planet and some sectors inside, blak hole in one of argon systems, xenon sectors with spiral shaped highways. Albion system in ruins... I loved that maps. X4 look empty in comparison (im not talking about lack of wars and big quests and main story).

Agreed. I liked the sector backgrounds in X Rebirth. Sadly people were complaining about it and wanted more realism.
This is what we got now with X4. Even the music is pretty bland in comparison of older titles.

[CaptainX4]

I miss the beautifull x:rebirth maps, that long highways throught some sectors and long superhighways showing you the beauty of systems. Plutarch controlled starting system with cracked open planet and some sectors inside, blak hole in one of argon systems, xenon sectors with spiral shaped highways. Albion system in ruins... I loved that maps. X4 look empty in comparison (im not talking about lack of wars and big quests and main story).

you can always go back and play x:r

[Komuso]

Yes, it's not completely finished and it feels buggy at times, but there was a lot of people advising others to wait for a few in-depth reviews and then decide. You decided to buy despite/before that, your problem, not everyone else's. Me? I bought the Collector's Edition, played for 20-30 hours, shelved the game for now and kicked off another X3AP modded session. I'm happy. Planning to revisit the game in a month or two.

I don't need to convince anyone, I didn't make the OP but I agree with it.

You just validate my points. In a sane product world do you not buy a product based on advertising then find out it doesn't work and "put it on the shelf" until it's fixed.
You typically buy a product because it's supposed to work as advertised - otherwise it's called false advertising aka fraud.

That's how it works in the marketplace. It's irrelevant if ES has adopted this strategy as a standard business practice. Just because EA and others also put out shite doesn't make it "right" either because MANY companies release games that work as advertised. Yes, bugs always exist but there's levels of bugs and game design fail as any sensible person can recognise. This falls on the extreme end of the spectrum which is classed as "massive fail".
If you have to wait months for a solid release...well, that speaks for itself.

The fact is Early Access was available to them and they chose to ignore it, instead adopting to continue with the old practice - partly because of people like you who don't bitch slap them over it and say that's unacceptable.

It doesn't matter that you're happy, what they are doing is unacceptable from an ethical business perspective when Early Access was available for them to roll it out in the state it was.

[shinzah]

I don't need to convince anyone, I didn't make the OP but I agree with it.

You just validate my points. In a sane product world do you not buy a product based on advertising then find out it doesn't work and "put it on the shelf" until it's fixed.
You typically buy a product because it's supposed to work as advertised - otherwise it's called false advertising aka fraud.

Again I implore you, please get legal representatives involved. What you're describing is a crime and crimes should be punished.

That's how it works in the marketplace. It's irrelevant if ES has adopted this strategy as a standard business practice. Just because EA and others also put out shite doesn't make it "right" either because MANY companies release games that work as advertised. Yes, bugs always exist but there's levels of bugs and game design fail as any sensible person can recognise. This falls on the extreme end of the spectrum which is classed as "massive fail".
If you have to wait months for a solid release...well, that speaks for itself.

I have had enough problems with the game I can count them on one hand. My paints don't work properly - not a big deal. The war mechanic isn't firing ships out of shipyards to their deaths - will probably be fixed but still isn't a big deal to me, travel mode on the nodan doesn't turn the window yellow - really not a big deal, I had a save break but that was patched out almost immediately after it happened and finally I expected/wanted the ships and stations from X:R to come back.

None of this is game breaking. This is my personal experience. I understand other people are having more trouble with the game.

The fact is Early Access was available to them and they chose to ignore it, instead adopting to continue with the old practice - partly because of people like you who don't bitch slap them over it and say that's unacceptable.

What about people like you who ad-hom other consumers and accuse the company of committing actual, serious, crimes without having any legal clout to back it up?

It doesn't matter that you're happy, what they are doing is unacceptable from an ethical business perspective when Early Access was available for them to roll it out in the state it was.

This is the best quote.

"It doesn't matter that YOU'RE happy. I'm going to pitch a bitch about muh ethics until the cows come home"

[Komuso]

I don't need to convince anyone, I didn't make the OP but I agree with it.

You just validate my points. In a sane product world do you not buy a product based on advertising then find out it doesn't work and "put it on the shelf" until it's fixed.
You typically buy a product because it's supposed to work as advertised - otherwise it's called false advertising aka fraud.

Again I implore you, please get legal representatives involved. What you're describing is a crime and crimes should be punished.

That's how it works in the marketplace. It's irrelevant if ES has adopted this strategy as a standard business practice. Just because EA and others also put out shite doesn't make it "right" either because MANY companies release games that work as advertised. Yes, bugs always exist but there's levels of bugs and game design fail as any sensible person can recognise. This falls on the extreme end of the spectrum which is classed as "massive fail".
If you have to wait months for a solid release...well, that speaks for itself.

I have had enough problems with the game I can count them on one hand. My paints don't work properly - not a big deal. The war mechanic isn't firing ships out of shipyards to their deaths - will probably be fixed but still isn't a big deal to me, travel mode on the nodan doesn't turn the window yellow - really not a big deal, I had a save break but that was patched out almost immediately after it happened and finally I expected/wanted the ships and stations from X:R to come back.

None of this is game breaking. This is my personal experience. I understand other people are having more trouble with the game.

The fact is Early Access was available to them and they chose to ignore it, instead adopting to continue with the old practice - partly because of people like you who don't bitch slap them over it and say that's unacceptable.

What about people like you who ad-hom other consumers and accuse the company of committing actual, serious, crimes without having any legal clout to back it up?

It doesn't matter that you're happy, what they are doing is unacceptable from an ethical business perspective when Early Access was available for them to roll it out in the state it was.

This is the best quote.

"It doesn't matter that YOU'RE happy. I'm going to pitch a bitch about muh ethics until the cows come home"

>>None of this is game breaking. This is my personal experience. I understand other people are having more trouble with the game.

If that is so why have there been multiple patch releases in the first week addressing game breaking bugs (and will be ongoing as more of the games systems actually get stress tested)?

What planet do you live on?

If a product doesn't work as advertised then it's typically called "False advertising". That's common sense, and in more than a few legal jurisdictions can be construed as Fraud if you want to push it that far (and have the resources to do so).
I'm just happy to get a refund, but Steam is refusing to give me one. I bought a game to play (and learn) now, not have to put it on the shelf for 6 months to a year in order to get it into the state where a new player can pick it up and have FUN immediately. The opportunity cost to use that money for something else in the meantime is high in this case.

Just because a certain segment of the game consumer market has become habituated to accepting bug ridden releases followed by endless patching on the fly doesn't make it acceptable.
There's a whole other segment of the consumer base who buy things based on the advertising.

Go and look at similar crowdfunded projects that have pulled similar stunts.

All the defenders of this practice are typically long time fans of the franchise who are habituated to a dodgy bug ridden release followed by a long period of patch releases to beat it into shape, sometimes taking a couple of years.
There are plenty of other games that don't do this, and they demonstrate this is viable. There are also plenty that use Early Access to manage expectations on high concept but complex games like this.

THAT'S WHAT EARLY ACCESS IS FOR SO YOU CAN AVOID ALL THIS BLOWBACK.

Are you thick that you don't understand that and keep harping on defending an old skool deployment practice that is terrible from all perspectives (brand, marketing, development etc)?

[shinzah]

If a product doesn't work as advertised then it's typically called "False advertising". That's common sense, and in more than a few legal jurisdictions can be construed as Fraud if you want to push it that far (and have the resources to do so).

Believe me, for a class action against a company in a billion dollar industry, you need very few resources.

I'm just happy to get a refund, but Steam is refusing to give me one. I bought a game to play (and learn) now, not have to put it on the shelf for 6 months to a year in order to get it into the state where a new player can pick it up and have FUN immediately.

I find steams grace period of two hours more than fair, two hours is enough time to encounter game breaking issues. If you've played more than two hours, that's really tough luck.

But what's interesting is you're directly accusing the developer of committing a crime. Do you understand the word "libel" and how it pertains to you? You are not providing evidence to support your claims and many members of the community have disputed it.

Just because a certain segment of the game consumer market has become habituated to accepting bug ridden releases followed by endless patching on the fly doesn't make it acceptable.
There's a whole other segment of the consumer base who buy things based on the advertising.

Opinion is not facts.

Go and look at similar crowdfunded projects that have pulled similar stunts.

Most of the serious offenses have had legal action taken, and in the cases where legal action couldn't be taken, the reputation of the developers was completely sunk; they won't be working again in this industry. Ever.

All the defenders of this practice are typically long time fans of the franchise who are habituated to a dodgy bug ridden release followed by a long period of patch releases to beat it into shape, sometimes taking a couple of years.

But this isn't legally wrong, this is also an opinion. Being "habituated" to how a studio conducts itself, especially a small studio that's heavily reliant on community involvement because of its niche market isn't something that *I* would consider bad. Of course, maybe you don't remember the launch of BC 3000 AD, perhaps you are too young.

THAT was a disaster. THAT was a mess. And that happened over two decades ago. The practices you speak of are frankly, not new. They have been in place forever. And it's unlikely Komuso on the internet is going to prevent another BC 3000 AD or Daikatana or Fallout76 from happening because of standing on a soap box on egosoft forums and demanding the developers conform to his particular brand of ethics.

There are plenty of other games that don't do this, and they demonstrate this is viable. There are also plenty that use Early Access to manage expectations on high concept but complex games like this.

There are also many that fail entirely.

THAT'S WHAT EARLY ACCESS IS FOR SO YOU CAN AVOID ALL THIS BLOWBACK.

I thought early access was for small developers to sell their products based on glorified tech demos in order to fund them for feature completion and instead turned into an excuse to cancel development, or worse, prolong it indefinitely to establish features the community demands spoiling the original vision and never releasing a feature complete product.

Kind of like a certain crowd funding project that has the funding of several major motion pictures but charges outrageous prices for assets not even completed.

Yes 'early access' and 'crowdfunding' are for AVOIDING blowback. Right.

Are you thick that you don't understand that and keep harping on defending an old skool deployment practice that is terrible from all perspectives (brand, marketing, development etc)?

I'm not thick at all. I hold a perspective different from yours having been involved in development and seeing firsthand the challenges that smaller studios face. Egosoft is doing a stellar job of working to make the product 'right' for everybody.

But then we could have had Derek Smart tell us it's great and just ignore all criticism of the steaming pile of junk he forced upon us.

Which would you rather have? A developer that works on the product post-launch to make it right, or one that just doesn't care about the consumer at all whatsoever?

[Komuso]

..blah blah blah...

Which would you rather have? A developer that works on the product post-launch to make it right, or one that just doesn't care about the consumer at all whatsoever?

A developer that uses Early Access to develop a product to the point where it's in an acceptable V1.0 release state (EA community input driven), complete with supporting documentation for new players. Also consistent with its advertised features and description.

There's plenty of companies that do this (from small one persons indies to big companies), and it shows more respect for your customer's time and money than the snake oil you're trying to sell.

This isn't rocket science, it's a solved product/project management problem. Defending old skool practices that have many negative outcomes just shows how far your development skills and knowledge are out of date.

[shinzah]

..blah blah blah...

Which would you rather have? A developer that works on the product post-launch to make it right, or one that just doesn't care about the consumer at all whatsoever?

A developer that uses Early Access to develop a product to the point where it's in an acceptable V1.0 release state (EA community input driven), complete with supporting documentation for new players. Also consistent with its advertised features and description.

There's plenty of companies that do this (from small one persons indies to big companies), and it shows more respect for your customer's time and money than the snake oil you're trying to sell.

Good luck in your journey to impose your brand of ethical morality on unwilling participants in order to fashion the world's greatest videogame, my angry little internet friend.

[Komuso]

..blah blah blah...

Which would you rather have? A developer that works on the product post-launch to make it right, or one that just doesn't care about the consumer at all whatsoever?

A developer that uses Early Access to develop a product to the point where it's in an acceptable V1.0 release state (EA community input driven), complete with supporting documentation for new players. Also consistent with its advertised features and description.

There's plenty of companies that do this (from small one persons indies to big companies), and it shows more respect for your customer's time and money than the snake oil you're trying to sell.

Good luck in your journey to impose your brand of ethical morality on unwilling participants in order to fashion the world's greatest videogame, my angry little internet friend.

It's funny you say that, as ethics are a big topic in CS education/profession right now. Your comment speaks volumes about your respect for the customers time and money.
You really are out of touch. You also need to read a little more widely, I'm not the only one saying this (about X4 or product/development practices in general)

[shinzah]

I have about as much faith and respect in modern Academia and the drivel it produces as you do in game developers.

[Komuso]

I have about as much faith and respect in modern Academia and the drivel it produces as you do in game developers.

You're displaying your ignorance again. Academia is only a part of this.

You're also wrong about how I think about game developers, as you deliberately ignored my comments about devs that do pull this off successfully in order to spin your own viewpoint.

tsk tsk, uncool.

[shinzah]

I have about as much faith and respect in modern Academia and the drivel it produces as you do in game developers.

You're displaying your ignorance again. Academia is only a part of this.

You're also wrong about how I think about game developers, as you deliberately ignored my comments about devs that do pull this off successfully in order to spin your own viewpoint.

tsk tsk, uncool.

Oh you mean like how you considered an entire post "blah blah blah" and responded with the same broken record agenda you've been running for the last eleventy pages?

Come now, Komuso.

Why can't we just get along?

[Komuso]

I have about as much faith and respect in modern Academia and the drivel it produces as you do in game developers.

You're displaying your ignorance again. Academia is only a part of this.

You're also wrong about how I think about game developers, as you deliberately ignored my comments about devs that do pull this off successfully in order to spin your own viewpoint.

tsk tsk, uncool.

Oh you mean like how you considered an entire post "blah blah blah" and responded with the same broken record agenda you've been running for the last eleventy pages?

Come now, Komuso.

Why can't we just get along?

Yes, it's just me saying this isn't it...

*cough*

ref: https://steamcommunity.com/app/392160/d ... 806293808/
Does anything in this game actually work as it's meant to?

I am genuinely starting to lose patience with crap like this.

This ship is now forever stuck above the loading dock and I have no idea how this actually happened. All I did was assgn captain to another ship and promote the idiot on the right. Now the idiot on the left is stuck in his chair, can't be fired, can't take control of the ship. He is now and forever a lemming.
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments

Seadogs has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
Not really, i've put it down and started playing X3:AP again with a new appreciatioln.
#1

CubeBix9000 has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
i suggest waiting 6 months or more for the game to be completely finished + the dlc.
#2

SiN has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
The Game Over screen works without a hitch. =)
#3

DEADPOO 1 hour ago
Well, the Egosoft logo when you boot up is astoundingly loud, so that is working great!
Last edited by DEADPOO; 1 hour ago
#4

Carlos Spicywiener has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
Sound sliders work as they should. When i lower the music slider, the volume decreases, every time
#5

DEADPOO 1 hour ago
"Auto-pilot epically failed."

Works every time my auto-pilot smashes into foreign objects.
#6

WiseWarrior has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
I got a larger ship and literally rammed it into the ship, forcing it to dock (didn't think it would work but it did). Seems the AI needed a little bit of a "push"

...Yeah, I went there.
#7

InertFurry has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
To look at this game in context, you need to have been there for X:3 release and X:Rebirth release. They both got way better (read: complete) over the intervening half-decades after their launches.
#8

MERC Major Gosnell has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
The landing pad works so wel lyou end up landed underneath it.
#9

WiseWarrior has X4: Foundations 1 hour ago
Originally posted by InertFurry:
To look at this game in context, you need to have been there for X:3 release and X:Rebirth release. They both got way better (read: complete) over the intervening half-decades after their launches.

I have been. I understand this. It's still not a valid development cycle for twenty-*******-eighteen! Saying it always gets better over-time shows we're all morons for continually buying egosoft games at release, thinking perhaps this is the time?

Argh... While I'm ranting, X:rebirth is still not a fun/complete game, it's just plain awful.

...WHY AM I STILL PLAYING THIS!!