Will we be able to navigate large capital ships by ourselves in X4?

[mirage202]

Just to add in my own 2 cents to the topic.

I own X, X2, X3, X3:TC, X3:AP, I refunded X:R. I'm currently still playing X3:AP with the LU mod (Mayhem next).

Right or wrong in your own mind I skipped X:R for one reason, Ego took away my choice to play as I saw fit.

A hundred games exist out there where I could fly a fighter or corvette if that's what I wanted. The reason I've played X for decades and continue to do so to this day is it offered something the rest didn't, I could jump in a giant metal behemoth.

Hopefully X4 continues the tradition, if not, well then more power to those that will enjoy it but for this one voice it'll be another pass.

[Alandauron]

That's because you've admittedly never played the previous games. If you had, you'd understand. The scale of what could be done in the two previous games is massive compared to Rebirth. You might want to take a little time and try the previous games before you make any more judgments on what the X vets are saying.

That is a very valid point lol. More and more though it sounds like the initial release of the previous titles weren't what everyone expected from XR though and mods along with continued support from the devs is what got it to what it is known for. That being said I stand by everything I have stated so far.

[Alandauron]

Just a small insight, there is a game in the making, Starpoint Gemini Warlords, which is completely based upon players flying and commanding capital ships. You can also build fleets, stations, capture territories...

http://store.steampowered.com/app/419480/

I really doub that flying capital ships is so boring after all.

Completely different game built from the ground up differently, but others have already covered this so I don't really need to.

Yes, I know, that is why it worked so nicely in X2 and in all iterations of X3 and why it failed so miserably in the XR.

I must be having trouble transitioning...what failed miserably?

[Alandauron]

Just to add in my own 2 cents to the topic.

I own X, X2, X3, X3:TC, X3:AP, I refunded X:R. I'm currently still playing X3:AP with the LU mod (Mayhem next).

Right or wrong in your own mind I skipped X:R for one reason, Ego took away my choice to play as I saw fit.

A hundred games exist out there where I could fly a fighter or corvette if that's what I wanted. The reason I've played X for decades and continue to do so to this day is it offered something the rest didn't, I could jump in a giant metal behemoth.

Hopefully X4 continues the tradition, if not, well then more power to those that will enjoy it but for this one voice it'll be another pass.

So basically you're saying that even if they nail everything else and the game is otherwise a great game if there's no capship piloting then you won't buy? That seems like a silly reason to not buy, but to each their own.

[Meme Turtle]

Just to add in my own 2 cents to the topic.

I own X, X2, X3, X3:TC, X3:AP, I refunded X:R. I'm currently still playing X3:AP with the LU mod (Mayhem next).

Right or wrong in your own mind I skipped X:R for one reason, Ego took away my choice to play as I saw fit.

A hundred games exist out there where I could fly a fighter or corvette if that's what I wanted. The reason I've played X for decades and continue to do so to this day is it offered something the rest didn't, I could jump in a giant metal behemoth.

Hopefully X4 continues the tradition, if not, well then more power to those that will enjoy it but for this one voice it'll be another pass.

So basically you're saying that even if they nail everything else and the game is otherwise a great game if there's no capship piloting then you won't buy? That seems like a silly reason to not buy, but to each their own.

Actually, thats a proper expression of personal attitude. If flying cap ships is a critical feature to anyone, it is their right to express their opinion, provided they do not get personal or pervert facts. It is simply not possible for devs to satisfy everyone and appeal to all groups of gamers.

I do not play Evochron or Elite as those games do not have a critical for me feature: ability to own cap ships and command them. However, I do not cry on forums how I got scammed, or how game does not have features, or blatantly insult people.

[Slashman]

I do not play Evochron or Elite as those games do not have a critical for me feature: ability to own cap ships and command them. However, I do not cry on forums how I got scammed, or how game does not have features, or blatantly insult people.

There were indeed a lot of loud and rude protest on the forums, but there were also calm and rational criticisms of things that made no sense and of things that were promised and never delivered.

For instance, the utility and viability of drones in XR. That was promised as a major game changer for the series. With all these options and functionality that players would prefer to use them etc etc. The actual implementation and drone behavior in the game turned out to be pretty darned meh in the end. And I love how we got that feature that let Yisha fly the Skunk while you remote-pilot drones with the VR interface.

I personally listened to a podcast where Bernd proudly proclaimed that they had solved the pathing issues in the game...yeah OK....solved!


Personally, XR to me comes across as a scaled down X3 and not as some shiny new thing worthy of awe. It's not a bad game now but I'm not sure why its something to get excited about either. I look at it and see restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions. If this was the first game of a new game company I would probably applaud it for a decent first effort. But I've played the previous X games and know what could be.

I mean we can spend time looking at the improvements that XR bought and most of them fall into the category of 'its about time...' rather than 'Wow! That's awesome! Didn't think about that!"

Modular cap ships - Been around in space sims since Freespace and Wing Commander Prophecy.

Space highways - We got them...some folks wish we hadn't

A decent mining system implementation with specialized ships - It's about time honestly

Better Boarding - Sorely needed for a while. Unfortunately tied to just the
Skunk

Economy - A more thought out economic flow with more moving parts and multi-ware manufacturing.

Crew system - Something that was sorely missing from previous X games and makes it less creepy that you as a single person control a vast fleet of cap ships and fighters with no people on board

Pirates - We finally got some pirates who act like pirates and steal stuff. Instead of homicidal maniacs who want to watch the world burn

Most of the rest is eye candy and then walking on stations which turned out to be useful for pretty much nothing and more an annoyance than help. It could potentially be turned into something useful but I have serious doubts about Egosoft's ability to do it without diverting necessary resources away from the important things in the upcoming game.

[Alandauron]

I mean we can spend time looking at the improvements that XR bought and most of them fall into the category of 'its about time...' rather than 'Wow! That's awesome! Didn't think about that!"

Modular cap ships - Been around in space sims since Freespace and Wing Commander Prophecy.

Space highways - We got them...some folks wish we hadn't

A decent mining system implementation with specialized ships - It's about time honestly

Better Boarding - Sorely needed for a while. Unfortunately tied to just the
Skunk

Economy - A more thought out economic flow with more moving parts and multi-ware manufacturing.

Crew system - Something that was sorely missing from previous X games and makes it less creepy that you as a single person control a vast fleet of cap ships and fighters with no people on board

Pirates - We finally got some pirates who act like pirates and steal stuff. Instead of homicidal maniacs who want to watch the world burn[/b

They should just hire you and then all this would already be in plus all the stuff people love from X3 right?

Sorry for the snide way of putting it, but to simply say, "All this is great but it's about time..." is really about the most disrespectful thing that is commonly seen on game forums. Maybe it should have been in previous installments, but from what I've gathered much of the features that people swear by now were first introduced by modders and then added as standard to the game from the constant ongoing support of Egosoft.

Really took away from the credibility of anything else you posted by just outright spitting in the faces of the devs with that attitude, but I'm the one that's out of line so apologies for that.

Back on point, I will agree that the drone system needs work, but so does everything else that was added. This is normally what devs that don't have unlimited resources do, they test something out in a limited fashion to see how people like it, if it is liked they expand on it. Hopefully they can see these things are liked despite all the hate directed at XR, but only time will tell.

[mirage202]

Just to add in my own 2 cents to the topic.

I own X, X2, X3, X3:TC, X3:AP, I refunded X:R. I'm currently still playing X3:AP with the LU mod (Mayhem next).

Right or wrong in your own mind I skipped X:R for one reason, Ego took away my choice to play as I saw fit.

A hundred games exist out there where I could fly a fighter or corvette if that's what I wanted. The reason I've played X for decades and continue to do so to this day is it offered something the rest didn't, I could jump in a giant metal behemoth.

Hopefully X4 continues the tradition, if not, well then more power to those that will enjoy it but for this one voice it'll be another pass.

So basically you're saying that even if they nail everything else and the game is otherwise a great game if there's no capship piloting then you won't buy? That seems like a silly reason to not buy, but to each their own.

In short, yes. I enjoy X because it offered something different. Nailing it is all well and good, but it would lose some of the uniqueness over some potentially better fighter based games.

Granted the large universe, complex economy and empire building aren't exactly common elsewhere yet I see those aspects as a means to an end, the end being acquiring and funding caps.

I'm not going to sit here and demand they include player caps in X4, but I am going to say my small piece in the hopes that maybe it has an impact on the decision. If they don't, then it's not going to be for me, I understand and accept that.

[Slashman]

They should just hire you and then all this would already be in plus all the stuff people love from X3 right?

No idea what hiring me has to do with anything. Never made a claim that I'm a developer or had a desire to be one. I was just not that impressed by Rebirth in several areas and I listed those. Lots of people weren't that impressed with Rebirth and many had good reasons (many just ranted because the game at launch was not quite ready). Those are my reasons and you can take them or leave them.

Customers don't have the obligation to understand the inner workings or tribulations of a dev studio. And the majority do not care.

Sorry for the snide way of putting it, but to simply say, "All this is great but it's about time..." is really about the most disrespectful thing that is commonly seen on game forums.

You sure you frequent many game forums?

Maybe it should have been in previous installments, but from what I've gathered much of the features that people swear by now were first introduced by modders and then added as standard to the game from the constant ongoing support of Egosoft.

Which is something else that bothers me greatly to be honest. I love games with a healthy mod community, but when you have to have modders make features that should be in the game already, they aren't modding...they're fixing your game. The Mosquito Missile Defense system is a stellar example of this. Why wasn't there a proper anti-missile system in the game before?

Really took away from the credibility of anything else you posted by just outright spitting in the faces of the devs with that attitude, but I'm the one that's out of line so apologies for that.

If that's how you see it, then that's how you see it.

Back on point, I will agree that the drone system needs work, but so does everything else that was added. This is normally what devs that don't have unlimited resources do, they test something out in a limited fashion to see how people like it, if it is liked they expand on it. Hopefully they can see these things are liked despite all the hate directed at XR, but only time will tell.

If you're making a game that is selling as a full release and it is full of under-realized features, then you are doing a disservice to your customers. That's what early access or beta access is for.

This is the entirety of my point, which you are getting up in arms about. Coming from the breath of features in X3 and then seeing incremental updates in so many areas (especially and including areas that have been touted as either revolutionary or long-standing problems that have finally been solved) and then seeing the feature set of Rebirth feels a lot like stepping backwards, to the side, then moving diagonally forwards a short distance. Don't use an alpha/beta release as a full game with the intention of datamining features from your customers and expect a good reception.

At the very least, don't do it without appropriately labeling it as such.

[Nikola515]

If people want another XR game than they should ask for it whenever X4 is done. There is no reason why they should change how X3 worked just becuse they don't like it X3 and XR are totally different games and that is how it should stay.

As for RTS UI it would be useful later in game when it comes to empire building. XR already have exterior view with Skunk.... With little optimization it would be useful for capital ship piloting ( simular to SPG).

[Ketraar]

If people want another XR game than they should ask for it whenever X4 is done.

That's a rather arbitrary statement to make. Others could say, people that want X4 should ask for it after it rains. Is it not a tad, erm... presumptuous to be the one defining what are valid requests and timings if one does not happen to be in charge of the project?

Its this notion of "being right" that people should shake imho and maybe a bit of humble pie for everyone "demanding" features or labelling additions as "easy" or "simple". Unless you are the one doing it, its NOT easy, simple or cheap.

MFG

Ketraar

[Slashman]

Its this notion of "being right" that people should shake imho and maybe a bit of humble pie for everyone "demanding" features or labelling additions as "easy" or "simple". Unless you are the one doing it, its NOT easy, simple or cheap.

MFG

Ketraar

No on needs to take into account the budget of a dev studio when asking for features. Most people don't know and really shouldn't care. The developer just has to say yes or no and give a reason if they feel like it.

Why try to tell people what they should or should not ask for? The more I hear that line of reasoning, the more I get the feeling that the actual motive behind it is to somehow control what goes into the game for your own benefit or interests. People can dream about what they want in their ideal space sim and they can voice those wishes unless it somehow breaks a forum rule.

Maybe something completely crazy and far out there is exactly what the game needs. Who can say apart from the developers? I've seen some crazy features go into games which made them better from users who weren't even fully serious. Honestly...what is with all the stifling of ideas?

[CBJ]

Why try to tell people what they should or should not ask for?

You are right to make this point, but you seem to have missed the point that the post you quoted was made in direct response to someone doing exactly that.

Now, back to discussing features, not other forum users.

[Nikola515]

If people want another XR game than they should ask for it whenever X4 is done.

That's a rather arbitrary statement to make. Others could say, people that want X4 should ask for it after it rains. Is it not a tad, erm... presumptuous to be the one defining what are valid requests and timings if one does not happen to be in charge of the project?

Its this notion of "being right" that people should shake imho and maybe a bit of humble pie for everyone "demanding" features or labelling additions as "easy" or "simple". Unless you are the one doing it, its NOT easy, simple or cheap.

MFG

Ketraar

What i actually wanted is that X4 should stay true to its original roots (X3). Reusing XR and making another game calling it X4 would be disaster and betrayal of X3 community. If they are actually reusing XR and adding only S/M ships than it will never be X4 in my opinion. This reminds me what Konami is dong with its new zombie game by using Metal Gears good name to make more money (scam) X3 had ability to all ships personally or you could switch it to autopilot so I don't see the problem. We already had this so I don't se reason why people insist on limiting to one when it worked fine in X3

[Slashman]

What i actually wanted is that X4 should stay true to its original roots (X3). Reusing XR and making another game calling it X4 would be disaster and betrayal of X3 community. If they are actually reusing XR and adding only S/M ships than it will never be X4 in my opinion. This reminds me what Konami is dong with its new zombie game by using Metal Gears good name to make more money (scam) X3 had ability to all ships personally or you could switch it to autopilot so I don't see the problem. We already had this so I don't se reason why people insist on limiting to one when it worked fine in X3

Honestly, I'd settle for a polished, low-bug count, properly fleshed out game on launch day regardless of the final feature set.

My current only real wish at this point (after the disappointment of Rebirth) is that Egosoft sets a firm set of achievable goals for themselves and makes them a reality in the next game. Bring out a game that on launch day is stable, has the core features working in the manner promised and does not take months and months to get to an acceptable level of completion. If they know they can't do a feature properly, don't half-ass it and try to get to it later. Remove it and put something in that is usable and fun NOW and not a year down the road.

Experiment in EA programs and Steam betas, not with the live code of the finished product.

[Ketraar]

Reusing XR and making another game calling it X4 would be disaster and betrayal of X3 community.

And again with the arbitrary defining. Last time I checked I was X3 Community too so please avoind to speak on my behalf, thank you.

If they are actually reusing XR and adding only S/M ships than it will never be X4 in my opinion.

Since no one really knows what X4 stands for and everyone and their automated Darth Vader robot will have a different definition of what it should be, this statement is irrelevant, albeit being correct. It has the same value to a conversation as saying I think X4 will be blue. It "being X4" is also irrelevant, as pointed out before, all it has to be is good and to my liking. So the question is really if a game that has flyable S/M ships is good and could I like it? The answers would be probably "yes, but..." as it usually is much complexer to define enjoyable games and hardly ever related to just one design choice or game mechanic.

This reminds me what Konami is dong with its new zombie game by using Metal Gears good name to make more money (scam)

You do realise that scam has a different meaning and you cant just use words as you see fit. Last time I checked most countries based their economies on pseudo capitalism or any version of, so scam does not apply to companies using their brands to make money. None is forced to buy it either, especially now since you have enlighten us all about it. Still I'd suggest you use words with their meaning and avoid hyperbole, it does not help the conversation.

We already had this so I don't se reason why people insist on limiting to one when it worked fine in X3

"We" landed on the moon and now "we" dont any-more. We put lead in gasoline and we stopped that, Firefly got cancelled after season 2. The common thread is a thing called choice. People take the options they have (hopefully) think about them and then make choices. Its not a very complicated concept and has been around quite a while. Now there are many reasons why one would make any choice, often those reasons are related with finite resources, as pointed out a few times, seems game devs consume fuel in form of food, often in the shape of pizza. As it stand pizza is not free and thus constitutes a finite resource. So as you can only cut pizza in so many pieces its understandable if devs decide (again hopefully) careful where to invest how much pizza in what features. As it also is in their best interest to make good games, as it sells more and thus gets them more pizza, its safe to assume that they'll do their best. No one really wants to miss out on pizza, thats just universal!

No one has to like it or even agree with it, just do something else. But it strikes me as ludicrous to bash devs and often insult them by thinking "you/one" know(s) best. Again I say, no one that has a simple solution to any complex "problem" can be taken seriously. Nothing wrong with sharing your wants and wishes, just accept what they are, wishes.

My current only real wish at this point (after the disappointment of Rebirth) is that Egosoft sets a firm set of achievable goals for themselves and makes them a reality in the next game. Bring out a game that on launch day is stable, has the core features working in the manner promised and does not take months and months to get to an acceptable level of completion. If they know they can't do a feature properly, don't half-ass it and try to get to it later. Remove it and put something in that is usable and fun NOW and not a year down the road.

The thing is, one is often only wiser after the fact. Or can you say you have not miss-planed ever? I often have this conversation when debating work-flow and trying to iron out possible error causes and after 25 years "on the field" and many debates, no one has ever found a solution to prevent errors to 100%. If you set out to do anything, you are vulnerable to problems, the more complex your project the more issues you will face, many of those issues you wont even realize existed, until you are well under way, often almost "at the end". Many such problems can be "fixed" and/or worked around, some you may have a real hard time solving, some are plainly unsolvable or require you to restart, maybe even abandon your project. The question the is, can you afford it? This is hard in any project but more so in ones you are making up, inventing things. How to plan for issues to things that dont exist yet?

I just imagine what NASA (and other science, art and cultural institutions, including games companies) would be like if they got the same treatment.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - T. Edison"

Stupid double post

If no one has replied yet you can delete your last post.

MFG

Ketraar

[Slashman]

The thing is, one is often only wiser after the fact. Or can you say you have not miss-planed ever? I often have this conversation when debating work-flow and trying to iron out possible error causes and after 25 years "on the field" and many debates, no one has ever found a solution to prevent errors to 100%.

I'm definitely not saying there are not going to be a few bugs and issues that need patching. But I'm pretty sure you know that there is a huge gulf between an acceptably smooth day one launch and Rebirth. What's more is this is not the first time Egosoft has done this.

I sincerely hope you're not telling me that after your 25 years of experience that each of your projects goes just as sideways as your last bad one because "things happen". And if that's acceptable can you please give me a list of your clients because it sounds like they are the sort of people I'd want to do work for if they are fine with that work philosophy.

If you set out to do anything, you are vulnerable to problems, the more complex your project the more issues you will face, many of those issues you wont even realize existed, until you are well under way, often almost "at the end". Many such problems can be "fixed" and/or worked around, some you may have a real hard time solving, some are plainly unsolvable or require you to restart, maybe even abandon your project. The question the is, can you afford it? This is hard in any project but more so in ones you are making up, inventing things. How to plan for issues to things that dont exist yet?

I just imagine what NASA (and other science, art and cultural institutions, including games companies) would be like if they got the same treatment.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - T. Edison"

That's really awesome but as a customer who's just looking to buy a working game, I really don't need to care. I have this thing called a refund request and I fully intend to use it. And while I'm enjoying some other game that actually works, Egosoft can continue happily finding their other 9,999 ways that won't work.

If they cannot handle making games of this scope with their current resources, then maybe it's time to try something else.

[hisazul]

Maybe it should have been in previous installments, but from what I've gathered much of the features that people swear by now were first introduced by modders and then added as standard to the game from the constant ongoing support of Egosoft.

Which is something else that bothers me greatly to be honest. I love games with a healthy mod community, but when you have to have modders make features that should be in the game already, they aren't modding...they're fixing your game. The Mosquito Missile Defense system is a stellar example of this. Why wasn't there a proper anti-missile system in the game before?

Apples to oranges. There is bethesda.... that releases broken, barely holding together sandbox titles that they leave to litteraly ROT, they are unplayable without patching mods. And there is taking an idea that a modder had that worked pretty nicely and adding it in to a later title. You had missile defense, in form of turrents and specialized weapons, quit taking things out of context and pretending that it's a fact. Someone decided it would be cool if mossies actually had a purpose. Same for entire bonus package. Ego added plenty of their own features... you just choose to shove your head in the sand and pick at anything that you can latch on.

The thing is, one is often only wiser after the fact. Or can you say you have not miss-planed ever? I often have this conversation when debating work-flow and trying to iron out possible error causes and after 25 years "on the field" and many debates, no one has ever found a solution to prevent errors to 100%.

I'm definitely not saying there are not going to be a few bugs and issues that need patching. But I'm pretty sure you know that there is a huge gulf between an acceptably smooth day one launch and Rebirth. What's more is this is not the first time Egosoft has done this.

I sincerely hope you're not telling me that after your 25 years of experience that each of your projects goes just as sideways as your last bad one because "things happen". And if that's acceptable can you please give me a list of your clients because it sounds like they are the sort of people I'd want to do work for if they are fine with that work philosophy.

If you set out to do anything, you are vulnerable to problems, the more complex your project the more issues you will face, many of those issues you wont even realize existed, until you are well under way, often almost "at the end". Many such problems can be "fixed" and/or worked around, some you may have a real hard time solving, some are plainly unsolvable or require you to restart, maybe even abandon your project. The question the is, can you afford it? This is hard in any project but more so in ones you are making up, inventing things. How to plan for issues to things that dont exist yet?

I just imagine what NASA (and other science, art and cultural institutions, including games companies) would be like if they got the same treatment.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. - T. Edison"

That's really awesome but as a customer who's just looking to buy a working game, I really don't need to care. I have this thing called a refund request and I fully intend to use it. And while I'm enjoying some other game that actually works, Egosoft can continue happily finding their other 9,999 ways that won't work.

If they cannot handle making games of this scope with their current resources, then maybe it's time to try something else.

And now I'm wondering if it's your reading comprehension that is failing. Quoting one thing, taking it completely out of context or utterly twisting it around and then just continuing on your whine train...

Why are you here? Isn't there a bitch and moan forums out there? Suicide hotline? If all else fails a psychologist?

Combining utter ignorance of how game developing works, or any project for that matter as it turns out... "I can't be wrong" mind set and a dose of "my way or the highway".

This is why this sub-forum is flooded with toxic waste. This wasn't all that different a decade ago... yet there was about infinitely less incessant whiners... ty glorious age of entitled kids behind a screen.

[Nikola515]

Supporting every action that Egosoft does and ignoring criticism will get Egosoft nowhere. Everyone knows what happens when company is surrounded with Yes Mans.... Like i said before X4 should be separated game from XR . We can argue about this all we want but in the end reviews or sales will determine who is right just like with XR.

[Slashman]

Apples to oranges. There is bethesda.... that releases broken, barely holding together sandbox titles that they leave to litteraly ROT, they are unplayable without patching mods.

That's very odd because I own both Oblivion and Skyrim and I assure you that I can boot both of them up right now and run them without mods and finish both games' main quests. Fun fact that you may not know: Most gamers do not use mods. That isn't to say that a large number of mod users don't exist for some games, but most people experienced both of Bethesdas' latest Elder Scrolls games without mods.

And there is taking an idea that a modder had that worked pretty nicely and adding it in to a later title. You had missile defense, in form of turrents and specialized weapons, quit taking things out of context and pretending that it's a fact. Someone decided it would be cool if mossies actually had a purpose. Same for entire bonus package. Ego added plenty of their own features... you just choose to shove your head in the sand and pick at anything that you can latch on.

I made a statement and gave an example. If you don't find it acceptable then feel free to disagree. But I do wonder why if the game needed more missile defense options, obvious things like ECM and decoy launchers somehow never got put on the table.

And now I'm wondering if it's your reading comprehension that is failing. Quoting one thing, taking it completely out of context or utterly twisting it around and then just continuing on your whine train...

Why are you here? Isn't there a bitch and moan forums out there? Suicide hotline? If all else fails a psychologist?

Combining utter ignorance of how game developing works, or any project for that matter as it turns out... "I can't be wrong" mind set and a dose of "my way or the highway".

Most of this sounds like: "I don't like you criticizing things I like so you must be a horrid/ignorant person." Maybe I have it wrong.

And as an aside, my way or the highway is the way we make purchasing decisions every single day. Do you continue to drink a brand of orange juice that you find unpalatable in the hopes that the manufacturer will fix it up so it tastes more like you want it to?

This is why this sub-forum is flooded with toxic waste. This wasn't all that different a decade ago... yet there was about infinitely less incessant whiners... ty glorious age of entitled kids behind a screen.

Please do an actual check of where toxin is coming from in this conversation.