Should X Rebirth's meta-critic score be re-reviewed?

[yoyolll]

If they start releasing information about a possible X4/XR2, then they have learned nothing from their mistake. Overhype, advertising, and preorders are the reason so many people are still sour about XR.

[khartsh]

If they start releasing information about a possible X4/XR2, then they have learned nothing from their mistake. Overhype, advertising, and preorders are the reason so many people are still sour about XR.

But a big part of the problem with Rebirth was the total lack of information and the wild speculation of some fans which led to people having expectations of things that were never intended.

ie. Capital Ship Bridges, Hidden Systems, Exploration between populated areas, mod in multiple ships, customizability of the Skunk.

So there needs to be a balance where they aren't overhyping but also they aren't leaving things so vague that people fill in expectations with the wild speculative.

[Cabrelbeuk]

It turns around... Finally, the conclusion is that there is a lack of communication and information.
Was not good with the release. 2.0 was a good surprise. It seems that we can just wait the next one...
It's a bit discouraging. A lot of suggestions have been made, a lot of ideas from a lot of people who try to help by participing in Beta Mode and giving feedback. And we have no idea on what Ego is working on now (besides optimisation and debugging).
The Bernd Planning said that we should have interface recast for this summer, but as far as Ego put "Interface recast" in the 2.0 description we can expect too that this is enough for them/they've started working on something else.
Or not.
They've might started to work on Mobile App. Or started a kickstarter for potato salad.

It's really strange because we do communicate with Ego Team (thanks CBJ and others) but they are really strong to not let the most little information.

Yes i know, it's to don't create expectation in player imagination and co. But if we would know at least if you are working on the Bernd ToDo list... I mean, if people know that you are working on interface, they will give ideas/advices/Whatever they want related to the interface. And you can take or not what you want. And they will not be 500 ideas lost in the sea because they are not related to the current subject.



PS : congrats for the 7-1 humiliation

[Graaf]

From your quote from the Egosoft shop the emphasis should be on "new beginning" which in essence implies change. Whether we like the changes or not is a different matter entirely.

Don't change what isn't broken.

But a big part of the problem with Rebirth was the total lack of information and the wild speculation of some fans which led to people having expectations of things that were never intended.

ie. Capital Ship Bridges, Hidden Systems, Exploration between populated areas, mod in multiple ships, customizability of the Skunk.

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't we been telling in the the 2.5 years before release that the single ship limitation was a bad idea? Haven't we explained to certain people that the ability to modify the game has nothing to do with it being a good game?

We of the so-called "haters side" have warned both the community as well as Egosoft that Rebirth was not going to end well, despite some people painting it with nice colors to hide the truth. So some people should stop barking our way like we are the culprits of this catastrophe.

No need to review this ever. Current course of actions of Egosoft are not going to change the real issues in Rebirth in the near future, since they will require a complete redesign.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Graaf: Errm... the old X engine was broken in a round about sense. But this is an OLD argument and not really worth debating further as both sides of the argument have valid points and debating them further will achieve nothing.

If the sole major gripe is the single player ship limitation, my guess is that it will be addressed in X4/XR2 and not in any update to X-Rebirth - although someone is looking at the possibility of modding in multiple flyable ships (Observer IIRC).

[pref]

Errm... the old X engine was broken in a round about sense. But this is an OLD argument and not really worth debating further as both sides of the argument have valid points and debating them further will achieve nothing.

Don't think it's about the engine. More about what the gameplay has to offer.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Errm... the old X engine was broken in a round about sense. But this is an OLD argument and not really worth debating further as both sides of the argument have valid points and debating them further will achieve nothing.

Don't think it's about the engine. More about what the gameplay has to offer.

The two go hand in hand really, forgetting the single ship decision (which appears to be an implementation decision not an engine design one) the additional functionality added with the new engine (e.g. Highways, FP Mode, and Modular Ships/Stations) has been requested on several occasions by different people since at least X2. As has the technological advancements to the engine such as Multi-Threading.

The perceived missing functionality (possibly with the sole exception of SETA) are more than likely necessary implementation limitations due to lack of time to be able to cover everything (We KNOW the full 7 years was not spent purely on developing X-Rebirth).

But as I tried to point out earlier this is an OLD argument.

[vukica]

i if know anything about software development, they'll first try to make the most of rebirth. if for nothing else, then just to iron out the engine faults.

then they'll use the same game/graphics engine for the new game.
if they're not too stupid about it, it just might work and result with something decent. that's one big if, but it gives hope.

note that "same game engine" is in no way equal to same gameplay style or game mechanics.

however, unless there's a public alpha or beta, i doubt they'll see much preorder money.
egosoft has a potential to create a metacritic_90+ high-seller, i hope they finally use it.

[pref]

The two go hand in hand really

As XR shows they do not go in hand as you suggest.
With a more capable engine, we have a more limited gameplay experience.

Often its quite hard to follow you, when you make these wild assumptions and then present them as facts. Don't even understand why do you assume anyone would want back the old X3 engine.
Just as you can make a great game with a bad engine if the concept is good. It does not work the other way around though, obviously.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@pref: There is a significant difference between designing an engine for a capability and implementing said capability - the latter requires significantly more work. This I (and I think others) have tried to explain on multiple occasions but for one last time...

There is no reasonable reason to believe that the perceived limitations (lack of certain capability implemented in the latter X games) were never intended to be addressed at some point in the new engine's on-going development path. The indications pre-release was that X-Rebirth was going to be the engine for all X-games for the foreseeable future.

There is however, obvious (at least to me) justification to first implement any unique and new fundamental functionality from the outset to some extent (e.g. the FP mode and modular ships/stations). These features have been indicated as problematic to implement with the old engine and thus as requiring core engine features would reasonably be designed in and implemented from the beginning.

Features such as AI, C&C, and Multiple Flyable Ship capability are almost certainly seen as relatively easy to "add on" or "improve" later (c/f the progression from X-BTF to X-Tension - the latter adding multiple-flyable ships to the former).

The decision about what features get implemented first is typically not about what is most desirable necessarily but rather what carries the most technical implications and/or risk. Having worked on projects where delivery of staged capability is required it is a planning approach I know pretty well.

This is not about having inner knowledge of the workings of Egosoft, nor having any significant insight into their inner workings or the design of the product. It is however about drawing reasonable conclusions from past history and what public information has been available since pre-release (and before) - some of which seem to get overlooked.

If you truly cannot understand the logic of the above then I am wasting both my time and yours - I can not really put it much clearer than that (I have tried already on several occasions to no avail).

[BigBANGtheory]

But a big part of the problem with Rebirth was the total lack of information and the wild speculation of some fans which led to people having expectations of things that were never intended.

ie. Capital Ship Bridges, Hidden Systems, Exploration between populated areas, mod in multiple ships, customizability of the Skunk.

So there needs to be a balance where they aren't overhyping but also they aren't leaving things so vague that people fill in expectations with the wild speculative.

I think Bernd was pretty upfront and honest in the Reddit AMA before release, though of course not everyone will have read that. What caught me be surprise (and I'll openly admit it), was having read and understood everything I was expecting a lot more i.e. they were holding back and being coy about <everything else> when in actual fact there was not a great deal more in gameplay terms. I expected Egosoft to have dealt with the gameplay as a whole and its clear they missed that, they tested function, they did not test experience (or non-functional aspects).

XR has been a costly experiment in what needed to be done and what players like / do not like / miss with empathy.

[Nanook]

@Graaf: Errm... the old X engine was broken in a round about sense. ....

There was nothing "broken" in the old engine even "in a round about sense".

It was just limited in what it could do. Broken implies the developers didn't code it properly. For an engine that was originally coded for Windows 95/98 (or even DOS), it was actually quite impressive for what it could do. Saying it was broken does a real disservice to the Egosoft team, IMO.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Nanook: In the context of the apparent technical objectives of X-Rebirth and certain public statements wrt the implementation of requested new functionality (and Graaf's comment) the old engine could be reasonable called "broken"... or as I would put it "at the end of it's useful life".

It is not the first time a software baseline has had to be abandoned in order to implement new functionality or fix perceived flaws/deficiencies in the old design and I doubt it will be the last either.

[Nanook]

You have an interesting, if incorrect, idea of the word 'broken', it seems. That's not how most dictionaries would define it.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

You have an interesting, if incorrect, idea of the word 'broken', it seems. That's not how most dictionaries would define it.

It is one of the colloquial definitions for it, at least where I come from - broken meaning unfit for intended purpose, which does apply in this context.

Graaf's statement was a mutation of a proper engineering axiom - if it's not broke don't fix it. I think my mutation of the term "broken" is just as applicable.

Are we not verging on breaking forum rules by discussing this matter in open forum though?

[Nanook]

Using "colloquial definitions" "where (you) come from" probably isn't the best way to communicate and avoid misunderstandings on a multi-language forum. By your "colloquial definition" a small box would be "broken" simply because it's too small to hold a large item (not fit for purpose).

Are we not verging on breaking forum rules by discussing this matter in open forum though?

And just what rule(s) would that (those) be, pray tell?

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Nanook: You SHOULD know being a moderator, but for the sake of clarity - discussing people's posts as opposed to the matter at hand.

But to further support my usage of the term broken I believe it is covered by at least one dictionary definition of the term.

[khartsh]

But a big part of the problem with Rebirth was the total lack of information and the wild speculation of some fans which led to people having expectations of things that were never intended.

ie. Capital Ship Bridges, Hidden Systems, Exploration between populated areas, mod in multiple ships, customizability of the Skunk.

So there needs to be a balance where they aren't overhyping but also they aren't leaving things so vague that people fill in expectations with the wild speculative.

I think Bernd was pretty upfront and honest in the Reddit AMA before release, though of course not everyone will have read that. What caught me be surprise (and I'll openly admit it), was having read and understood everything I was expecting a lot more i.e. they were holding back and being coy about <everything else> when in actual fact there was not a great deal more in gameplay terms. I expected Egosoft to have dealt with the gameplay as a whole and its clear they missed that, they tested function, they did not test experience (or non-functional aspects).

XR has been a costly experiment in what needed to be done and what players like / do not like / miss with empathy.

First of all the AMA was what, just 3 months before release? Hardly enough time to stem the already 3 year old speculation machine running around these forums.

And second even in the AMA we couldn't get a straight answer on upgrades to the skunk, expanded universe size and capital ship bridges.

But yes, the point is that the tightrope has to be walked perfectly if pre-release hype is part of your marketing plan.

[GrieferBastard]

X:Rebirth is the exact same game that got one of the lowest ratings of any game on Metacritic - ever. Half way down page 34, out of 34 pages of reviews.

Some bugs have been fixed. That's great. Some promised features are closer to being released. Even if they were though it'd still be the same game.

Peoples opinions of that are not going to change much. It sold a lot more copies; just that most the people who bought them didn't like the game. I'm not sure that's a 'win' in the long run.

Re-opening the games reviews are not going to change peoples opinions of it. It's still a 33. It's pretty - when it runs. The experience of the game though... If you're one of the 130 people who liked the game, great. I'm sure you like it more now. Everyone else has already shared their opinion and making broken features that they did not enjoy work, but still be unenjoyable...

Anyway. If nothing else X:Rebirth helped solidify for a lot of people the dangers of pre-ordering. Ironically that may be what it's best remembered for.

[Graaf]

The two go hand in hand really, forgetting the single ship decision (which appears to be an implementation decision not an engine design one) the additional functionality added with the new engine (e.g. Highways, FP Mode, and Modular Ships/Stations) has been requested on several occasions by different people since at least X2.

But they requested to have those functionalities added to both X2/X3. When did we ask to have trade removed from the gameplay experience? In order to my definition of trade back they not only have to completely redesign those mechanics, they also need to add the ability to pilot multiple ships.

The perceived missing functionality (possibly with the sole exception of SETA) are more than likely necessary implementation limitations due to lack of time to be able to cover everything

Nothing "perceived" about that then. It is missing. Or broken, if I have to use your dictionary (incomplete, uncomplete - not complete or total; not completed).

(We KNOW the full 7 years was not spent purely on developing X-Rebirth).

The time has come: after seven long years of development, X Rebirth is finally available.

One of these is wrong. Which one?

But to further support my usage of the term broken I believe it is covered by at least one dictionary definition of the term

Yes, imperfect - not perfect.