Poll on Xenon strength (8.0/9.0)

[elijahgalador]

Adding to the discussion, trying to support the case that Xenon are way (!) too weak still in V9.0. I started a fresh game and would consider me still being early in the playthrough; i.e. the Hatikva Plot is done, non-DLC map part is almost explored, first few stations from e-cells to shiptech are up and running, reseach mostly done and HQ is constructing its final production modules up to shiptech while I patiently wait for my agents to aquire the remaining equipment blueprints.

[Scale Plate Green already forsaken]
In my game, I just recently opened up Scale Plate Green, only to discover that the sectors are already completely forsaken. The Xenon Wharf (if there ever was one) is already gone, two defence platforms and an abandoned Shipyard are just waiting to be destroyed by the Teladi coming in via Company Regard. Not a single Xenon unit remains in the sectors.

[New plan: Let me try to support the poor machines]
I immediatley stopped my blockade in Hatikvah's Choice I and tried for the last few (real time) hours to support SE ships on their long voyage towards Scale Plate Green, hoping they might revive the economy. But frankly, at this point I am just about to give up completely. I have to constantly aggro a huge PAR fleet that is guarding the north gate to Trinity Sanctum III and otherwise shoots any SE leaving the ring highway on sight. In addition, every ten minutes, I have to disable the turrets on a PAR defence platform guarding the entrance to Hewa's Twin. And still - the (very) few SE ships that with my help make it past this point, have nothing better to do but to pick every single fight they possibly can on their way.

[Mission failed]
The only solution I could think of is declaring war on PAR and TEL or bring them to fight each other via diplomacy to distract and weaken them. Both options I am unwilling to take, since I would prefer to be on good terms with PAR and TEL.

[Verdict]
I completely agree with the prevailing opinion, that Xenon need to be toughened up, to be a more consistent threat for longer playthroughs. The poor machines, meant to be the scourge of the universe, are at a disadvantage in just too many cases:

• the way the map is currently set up, the Xenon are literally cornered right from the start, with the exception of Tharka's Cascade

• the SE ships the Xenon rely on to keep their disconnected economy alive, are outright unfit for the job

• instead of concentrating on their primary job as mining/economy vessels, SEs tend to mistake themselves for battle cruisers and pick every possible fight they can

• additionally, while a larger fleet of Ks and Is can be devastating for a raided sector, there seems to be no logic for them in supporting/guarding their own economy

• and the icing on the cake: Late game the player is at least given a strong incentive, to destroy the little that is left of a working xenon economy spanning Tharka's Cascade sectors as part of the Yaki plot

[Edit/Addition]
When you think it just can't get any weirder ... this is when Xenon start a war with ARG Federation in Hatikvah's Choice I, sending their elite SE class ships
Link to image: https://i.ibb.co/m3qczHW/SE-raging-War- ... ration.png (not meant all that seriously ...)

[Blaze1st]

Adding to the discussion, trying to support the case that Xenon are way (!) too weak still in V9.0. I started a fresh game and would consider me still being early in the playthrough; i.e. the Hatikva Plot is done, non-DLC map part is almost explored, first few stations from e-cells to shiptech are up and running, reseach mostly done and HQ is constructing its final production modules up to shiptech while I patiently wait for my agents to aquire the remaining equipment blueprints.

[Scale Plate Green already forsaken]
In my game, I just recently opened up Scale Plate Green, only to discover that the sectors are already completely forsaken. The Xenon Wharf (if there ever was one) is already gone, two defence platforms and an abandoned Shipyard are just waiting to be destroyed by the Teladi coming in via Company Regard. Not a single Xenon unit remains in the sectors.

[New plan: Let me try to support the poor machines]
I immediatley stopped my blockade in Hatikvah's Choice I and tried for the last few (real time) hours to support SE ships on their long voyage towards Scale Plate Green, hoping they might revive the economy. But frankly, at this point I am just about to give up completely. I have to constantly aggro a huge PAR fleet that is guarding the north gate to Trinity Sanctum III and otherwise shoots any SE leaving the ring highway on sight. In addition, every ten minutes, I have to disbale the turrets on a PAR defence platform guarding the entrance to Hewa's Twin. And still - the (very) few SE ships that with my help make it past this point, have nothing better to do but to pick every single fight they possibly can on their way.

[Mission failed]
The only solution I could think of is declaring war on PAR and TEL or bring them to fight each other via diplomacy to distract and weaken them. Both options I am unwilling to take, since I would prefer to be on good terms with PAR and TEL.

[Verdict]
I completely agree with the prevailing opinion, that Xenon need to be toughened up, to be a more consistent threat for longer playthroughs. The poor machines, meant to be the scourge of the universe, are at a disadvantage in just too many cases:

• the way the map is currently set up, the Xenon are literally cornered right from the start, with the exception of Tharka's Cascade

• the SE ships the Xenon rely on to keep their disconnected economy alive, are outright unfit for the job

• instead of concentrating on their primary job as mining/economy vessels, SEs tend to mistake themselves for battle cruisers and pick every possible fight they can

• additionally, while a larger fleet of Ks and Is can be devastating for a raided sector, there seems to be no logic for them in supporting/guarding their own economy

• and the icing on the cake: Late game the player is at least given a strong incentive, to destroy the little that is left of a working xenon economy spanning Tharka's Cascade sectors as part of the Yaki plot

I reckon this sums it up pretty concisely...

I wonder if they would work better as seperate Xenon sub-factions per pocket that are allied to one another? If they would focus on the development and defense of their own pockets more effectively then?

Seems to me just stopping them somehow from venturing too far before they're ready would solve a lot of their problems.

[Keldy]

I was thinking that the SE were acting kind of weird—before, it seemed like they'd do anything to escape a fight, but now they're fighting like crazy.

IMHO, a small change to the AI based on the previous version would solve a lot of problems.

Personally, (as i mentioned before)I'm having a bit of trouble with the new AI for the K-class, which now coordinates its actions and intervenes in combat, so CoP/Ter destroyers simply don't have a chance to exploit their range advantage, and in CQB, the K-class has much greater firepower.

I guess once I have 30–40 destroyers, I won't care anymore, but it really ruins the early stages of the game.

[Nothinnn]

It's not only the SE's - it's all miners and traders. The culprit seems to be the "use judgement" setting regarding how to respond to attacks - which seems to be the default.

I don't know exactly how they determine when to fight but both miners and traders are surprisingly keen on bloodshed right now. I found this out whn I set my global orders from "flee" to "use judgement in an attempt to stop my L class miners from running from every little Kha'ak scout. The result was twofold - my L class ships now rightfully ignored and/or obliterated S class ships harassing them but my M class miners and traders suddenly decided they were the second coming of Rambo. Suddenly a Boa I had run errands in sectors with frequent Xenon raiding party presence due to it's ability to outrun just about anything decided to duke it out with the very Xenon fighters it was supposed to avoid. I also saw my Alligator Miners - which I likewise use because they can actually outrun the Kha'ak - duke it out with the Kha'ak that spawned in to harass them as opposed to doing the thing they're supposed to do: run.

TL:DR the "use judgement" command seems to make M class ships take fights they shouldn't take and once they decided to fight they will keep doing so with whoever is around, even if the reason they started to engage was a fighter harassin them they will also go for a nearby station as soon as they get tagged by the turrets once...

[Scoob]

Improvements to Capital ship AI really hurt the Xenon for any in-sector encounter. A Xenon K could, once upon a time, quite reliably chew up a singe Behemoth with ease. Behemoth would spend more time just faffing around, achieving nothing, while the K's turrets went to work. It didn't matter if the K couldn't face the target, or sat their doing weird, pointless manoeuvres... its turrets still fired. For me, it took a 3-1 ratio of Behemoths to Xenon K to guarantee a win. With the likely loss of one Behemoth, and heavy damage to another. It was simply bad. Now a Behemoth has AI that can actually use that main battery properly, K's fall easily. I found, during the v9.0 beta, that a Single Behemoth E or Phoenix E, with a few fighters to protect against fighters, was pretty much all I needed most of the time. I've even had a single Destroyer face - and win against - three Xenon K's. Sure, they "lined up" to fight it, but still. A Xenon I is still scary, but three Destroyers can usually do the job.

Main batteries give faction destroyers a HUGE advantage over the turret-only Xenon K, now the AI is so much better. The K's turrets-only setup meant it wasn't hindered as much by poor AI. These are largely in-sector, or rather High Attention factors - at least, most obvious when watched in person - though it cannot be denied that faction Destroyers are better in low-attention now too... at least, that's what I see. Perhaps it's time for the Xenon to adapt. Start fitting Main Batteries to a new Destroyer variant. Maybe start using missiles too...

As for resourcing, well, yeah, SE's are the Xenon's universal "do everything" economy ships. They should be fast and only try to fight if they really cannot escape. I.e. they're "stunned" (temporarily disabled travel drive) and their boost is either drained or blocked. They should always do their best to flee. Perhaps the Xenon need some larger ships supporting their economy too... The thing is, the SE is a really good miner. I had a few bail, claimed them and put them to work. They're better than the Drill Vanguards I actually build. They mine faster. I'll see the SE's mining for my station sometimes returning TWICE for the Drill's single return to offload. Not checked the SE's specs, but they're very good at mining. Incidentally, mine know to FLEE when attacked... just sayin' lol.

I suppose civilian ships dying - regardless of faction - is often down to awareness, or lack of it. Ships simply cannot "see" the obvious danger they're about to fly in to oblivious that we can. That does frustrate a little. Seeing dozens of SE's delivering wares to the Build Storage of an already destroyed station build site, when the fleet that destroyed it is still there... not smart.

[Blaze1st]

Did Xenon even get the travel drive stability update in 9.0? I would have assumed this should have helped with SE survivability too...

[Nothinnn]

Perhaps it's time for the Xenon to adapt. Start fitting Main Batteries to a new Destroyer variant. Maybe start using missiles too...

I fully support the idea of upgrading the K with a doom laser coming out of it's giant, glowing red eye~

That said, we don't even need to go there. The K actually fields a surprisingly low number of Turrets for it's immense size with it's entire back lacking any turrets whatsoever. If I was a dev I'd plot at least one more graviton on it's giant forehead.

Regarding low attention there is a bit of an anciet piece of code holding back the Xenon right now. As of right now Turrets have a mere 30% chance to fire at any given time in low attention. I personally consider this an artefact from previous game iterations where it still made sense to tune down turrets in low attention to help out the AI of ships with main batteries in their struggle to keep their guns on target. I really wish the devs were nmore open to changes such as these, I had really hoped 9.0 would be THE updtate to clean up more of the game's ancient baggage.

[Hammerhirsch]

I’ve tried three times now, and they all ended the same way. Sooner or later, the Xenon lose without me even lifting a finger. Since version 9.0, the Xenon stand absolutely no chance in the long run; the player doesn't even need to get involved. All that talk from the Terrans and other factions is a lie—they aren't losing; they're winning, and since 9.0, they don't need the player at all. It’s so boring. For me, the 9.0 update is overshadowed by the Xenon's inability to hold their territory. They gradually lose their SE ships, and the Terrans finish the job with their intervention fleet. Before 9.0, the Xenon were more balanced when it came to conquering territory. Since 9.0, I don't see that anymore; they just lose everywhere, sooner or later.

The Xenon usually get off to a good start, but then it just turns into a hot fart. You really can't leave it like that. I’m really not enjoying the Xenon this way. They don't need to be overpowered; they just need to be able to hold their territory and engage in a back-and-forth struggle, rather than slowly bleeding out.

[WINT3R]

Are the Xenon ships weak, or is their number just too low?! In my game, the Xenon often attack with "only" 1 to 3 Ks plus S and M ships. The other factions often have larger fleets for defense, plus sometimes stations nearby. Additionally, when there are multiple Ks, they often split up, making it even easier for the other factions to deal with them.
[Translated via LLM]

[Alan Phipps]

I think there are initially two main Xenon survivability issues to address:

1. Their supply ships need to be faster and more agile, less likely to stop and turn (or fight) on first being hit, and be restricted in mining/trading range so that they prioritise supply of local station build storage needs from local resources and not try to go to those halfway around the galaxy.

2. The Xenon strong patrol/incursion jobs need a bit of a rethink so that almost every fleet is an I and 3 K, maybe an H, plus fighter support that doesn't leave until all is outfitted and ready and then stays as a cohesive fleet. That would mean a decent battle with NPC fleets, especially if two incursion fleets are about at the same time, rather than say for just a few Ks that explore independently but die quickly to gate-camping fleets. In early game such strong Xenon incursions might risk NPC sectors getting wiped out without much opposition, so the strong incursion jobs should not start until after suitable time in-game. If the player quickly gets hold of 'I-win' ships such as a pimped-up Syn or Asgard for personal use, even those strong incursions might not prove too difficult to negate (it's a player choice whether to do that though).

[Nanook]

In my opinion, the Sohnen/Ego-devs messed up when they dispersed the Xenon the way they did. And then they put the largest concentration of Xenon right in the most untenable location so that the other factions have no choice but to try to wipe them out (I'm referring to Hatikah's here). The Xenon would be more of a threat, last longer and yet be able to be contained (with difficulty) if their major concentration was somewhere outside the CoP and separated by a number of empty sectors. There should be sufficient resources in their own sectors at the start of the game to allow a build up, but then they'd need to push into CoP territory for more once they start to get low.

Someone mentioned that they only bring small fleets to the party. That's most likely because of the dispersal of their sectors and the fact that many of those support fleets never make it to their destination. Many times I've seen a large Xenon fleet start out from Savage Spur or Frontiers Edge only to be whittled down and destroyed by the intervening Arg/Ant/Ter fleets and stations before they could join in the invasion of Hatikvah's.

[LightII]

Yesterday, I captured Matrix #598. I expected it to be a cakewalk, since there weren't many Xenon ships in sight. After I'd wiped out the two visible Xenon stations, just like in any other sector, the sector didn't flip to me. Just as I was about to post on the forums asking for help, my Sapporo, which I'd sent out to scout, spotted two Xenon shipyards a fair distance apart, far outside of the initial map range.

That battle was absolutely brutal. Hundreds of defence drones, wave after wave, coming from two directions. Thankfully, my formation was solid – thanks to the long-range S specialising weapons, my ships could cover each other nicely, fending off the Xenon's divide-and-conquer tactics, so they didn't cause me too many losses – except for the poor Sapporo. Even though there was no K around to tempt it into charging forward, and it stayed at the back, it still got banged up. You can see from the screenshot how many drone wrecks are out there, not mention most of them vanished already.



To win this fight, I tried three different tactics:

Spoiler

Show

1. Steady and methodical – keep formation, manually control the M-class ships docked on the larger vessels (specialising in hunting S-class ships), and rescue any big ship that gets swarmed in time, until the Xenon drones are whittled down. This is stable and easy to manage, but it takes forever – those Xenon drones could keep coming for an hour or even two without running out.
2. Move the Asgard directly above the station, wait for the fleet to regroup, then have everyone rush in at once to spread the incoming fire. Use the Asgard's main battery to quickly knock out the shipyard's defence platforms, then concentrate fire on the drone storage. The problem here is that you can't order NPC captains to target a specific module – so whether you actually hit the drone storage is down to luck. It's a bit of a gamble, but if it goes well, the fight ends quickly – though you'll have some repair bills afterwards.
3. Use just the Asgard for a lightning raid on the Xenon shipyard. Yes, you read that right – the Asgard can do hit‑and‑run too. Cruise in to about 15 km from the station, stop, immediately engage the travel drive, and during the spool‑up, fire the main gun at the drone storage. Then bug out to 30 km or until your speed exceeds 2 km/s, disengage the flight assist and turn back towards the station. Wait for the fourth pass until the drones have returned, so you can catch most of them inside the storage when you blow it. Then destroy the defence platforms, and finally send the whole fleet in. That was the tactic I ultimately went with – it's a bit trickier and takes some practice, but it's not as reliant on luck, and it doesn't drag on for ages.

After all that, I was absolutely knackered.

[RedEclipse]

Been shot by Ks yesterday in my newly Hyperion with the Xperimental ship docked.
Hatikva -> blockade -> 6xK + dozens of fighters + 2 xenon def stations + another xenon station -> boom -> good night, will try something tomorow.

6K is a little excessive when the player have only 1 large ship.
today I just spend 2 hours trying to shoot escort and SE, but man they are keep coming back and back.

There is an Argon cap fleet at the other side of the gate but they are doing nothing to defend Hatikva, is it strange or not ?

[LightII]

It's normally strange but in game it's normal.

[Damian Swift]

Xenon are a complete joke in 9.0

i last played around 2 years ago and the Xenon were pathetically weak then (within a day game length they had lost sectors to the HOP, Teladi and even the northern Split were encroaching on their sectors (never seen that before) but this new game with 9.0 is on another level...

Within 10 hours, they had lost sectors to both the Teladi and Hop, and the northern split were easily dealing with the pathetic invasions the Xenon launched, was/is a huge let down.

At least i can fall back on the mod Xenon jobs + to give the poor Xenon a fighting chance to survive.

[LightII]

When you see a xenon fleet which, is consists of 2 I, 15+ k, 3 H and 100+ heavy fighters, right behind of the jump gate , then you may think different.

My conclusion about this topic is the xenon ship is strong, but their behavior is rediculous. Anyway, they are mad machines, are't they?

[EmeraldFlint]

Adding to the discussion, trying to support the case that Xenon are way (!) too weak still in V9.0. I started a fresh game and would consider me still being early in the playthrough; i.e. the Hatikva Plot is done, non-DLC map part is almost explored, first few stations from e-cells to shiptech are up and running, reseach mostly done and HQ is constructing its final production modules up to shiptech while I patiently wait for my agents to aquire the remaining equipment blueprints.

[Scale Plate Green already forsaken]
In my game, I just recently opened up Scale Plate Green, only to discover that the sectors are already completely forsaken. The Xenon Wharf (if there ever was one) is already gone, two defence platforms and an abandoned Shipyard are just waiting to be destroyed by the Teladi coming in via Company Regard. Not a single Xenon unit remains in the sectors.

[New plan: Let me try to support the poor machines]
I immediatley stopped my blockade in Hatikvah's Choice I and tried for the last few (real time) hours to support SE ships on their long voyage towards Scale Plate Green, hoping they might revive the economy. But frankly, at this point I am just about to give up completely. I have to constantly aggro a huge PAR fleet that is guarding the north gate to Trinity Sanctum III and otherwise shoots any SE leaving the ring highway on sight. In addition, every ten minutes, I have to disbale the turrets on a PAR defence platform guarding the entrance to Hewa's Twin. And still - the (very) few SE ships that with my help make it past this point, have nothing better to do but to pick every single fight they possibly can on their way.

[Mission failed]
The only solution I could think of is declaring war on PAR and TEL or bring them to fight each other via diplomacy to distract and weaken them. Both options I am unwilling to take, since I would prefer to be on good terms with PAR and TEL.

[Verdict]
I completely agree with the prevailing opinion, that Xenon need to be toughened up, to be a more consistent threat for longer playthroughs. The poor machines, meant to be the scourge of the universe, are at a disadvantage in just too many cases:

• the way the map is currently set up, the Xenon are literally cornered right from the start, with the exception of Tharka's Cascade

• the SE ships the Xenon rely on to keep their disconnected economy alive, are outright unfit for the job

• instead of concentrating on their primary job as mining/economy vessels, SEs tend to mistake themselves for battle cruisers and pick every possible fight they can

• additionally, while a larger fleet of Ks and Is can be devastating for a raided sector, there seems to be no logic for them in supporting/guarding their own economy

• and the icing on the cake: Late game the player is at least given a strong incentive, to destroy the little that is left of a working xenon economy spanning Tharka's Cascade sectors as part of the Yaki plot

I reckon this sums it up pretty concisely...

I wonder if they would work better as seperate Xenon sub-factions per pocket that are allied to one another? If they would focus on the development and defense of their own pockets more effectively then?

Seems to me just stopping them somehow from venturing too far before they're ready would solve a lot of their problems.

I concur,

The Xenon are trying to coordinate their resources over too many sectors with ships, that are not suited for the task. Xenon run dry of resources. Once they are holed up in Tharka's Cascade, they are too weak and you have to kill them for the yaki plot.

For Christmas, I wish for a Xenon addon.

For starters, Boso or the Alliance of the word, detect strange messages. They are worried and send an expeditionary fleet to investigate.
So you start investigating every Xenon main sector (the ones with shipyards) with a little help (like the with the Boron storyline, or you teleport the hq and send a ship down to the planet like we do with terraforming).

The final station is Tharkas Cascade. You have to investigate there and clear it.
Once the expedition is done, you are allowed to terraform the planet in THarka's Cascade.

How will that help the xenon getting stronger?

Well, you find out, that the xenon have a new kind of weapon. It is located in a yet unconnected sector cluster.
Every destroyed shipyard and wharf will be built in a new sector cluster with huge amount of resources for their shipyards.

The Xenon are furious, a new option will be available for the player, after xenon crisis is resolved one time.

You are send to investigate Emperor's Pride VI.

You have to do some research. Once done, you try to connect to that new sector.
You'll find a Xenon Hub, which is the new Weapon. Behind that Hub is a cluster of xenon sectors with tons of resources, which contain every now rebuilt wharf and shipyard, that was once destroyed in the known sectors. Give the players a clear message, that once they cleared the xenon cluster behind the hub, they are gone for good for now (at least on this side of the galaxy, new gates can always reconnect).

The Xenon will try to reclaim their sectors, now coordinated, and with one or two suprises, like a new Xenon Q and a Carrier. And you can send them around, as long as you are in control of the hub.

Let Helge work his magic on the storyline.



You'll get a story, some exploration and meaner and coordinated xenon.

For compatibility reasons, one could set the hub connected to Nopileos' Memorial, so players wouldn't need the split addon.

One can dream....

[vvvvvvvv]

I recently tried to clear out Nopileos Memorial the same way it always worked before 9.0. In unmodded Erlking. I got obliterated.

Ks got nicely buffed, and t he biggest thing that mattered was the range of their graviton turrets, now 7+ km. Previously outranging and blowing up a K was trivial.

Not sure how it will work long term, but this seems much better than before.