Feature Request: Xenon Economic Resilience & Decentralization (Anti-Hardlock System)

[Themroc]

Let's not lose focus

I'm game with anything that doesn't make me go Xenon zookeeper just to keep them alive!

I startet with 8.0 an new game, 12 ingame days and xenon mostly gone
not good

[jlehtone]

My suggestion is to designate certain Xenon sectors as Core and prohibit AI Empires from entering these systems (Hard-coded in the AI). I'm referring to sectors (base game, no DLCs) such as Tharka's Cascade XVII, Matrix 9, Scale Plate Green I, or Atiyas Misfortune I, where the Xenon can mine all the resources and rebuild.

You did list four sectors. Three of them have big target painted on them. One plot and two Terraforming missions urge player to wipe those three. It may help a bit that NPC do not dash to those sectors. Do you really want the player to choose between completing side-quests and keeping Xenon alive?

Furthermore, what is then the target of the Protectorate's Intervention Corps, if Xenon sectors are off the table?

[Hollex]

My suggestion is to designate certain Xenon sectors as Core and prohibit AI Empires from entering these systems (Hard-coded in the AI). I'm referring to sectors (base game, no DLCs) such as Tharka's Cascade XVII, Matrix 9, Scale Plate Green I, or Atiyas Misfortune I, where the Xenon can mine all the resources and rebuild.

You did list four sectors. Three of them have big target painted on them. One plot and two Terraforming missions urge player to wipe those three. It may help a bit that NPC do not dash to those sectors. Do you really want the player to choose between completing side-quests and keeping Xenon alive?

Furthermore, what is then the target of the Protectorate's Intervention Corps, if Xenon sectors are off the table?

The sectors themselves don't matter; I simply chose them as an example because they are sectors from the base game and contain both silicon and minerals, making them suitable for Xenon reconstruction.

The important thing is the concept of core Xenon sectors where the AI ​​cannot enter, or rather, where the AI ​​cannot send patrols, raids, invasion forces, or attempt to conquer the sector.

If these sectors cannot be used due to missions or other reasons, other sectors can always be used, or additional Xenon sectors can be added to the base game.

Furthermore, what is then the target of the Protectorate's Intervention Corps, if Xenon sectors are off the table?

What happens to Protectorate's Intervention Corps when all Xenon sectors have been purged, either by the player or the AI? But to answer your question, I'm NOT saying that ALL Xenon sectors are beyond the AI's reach, only a few key core sectors. So, if the AI ​​is capable of eliminating the Xenons from all sectors except the core Xenon sectors (which it shouldn't be able to attack), the Protectorate's Intervention Corps logically has no valid objective. Therefore, it should wait for one of those core Xenon sectors to rebuild its fleet and attack and conquer another sector, so that the Protectorate's Intervention Corps has a valid objective.

I honestly don't know if I've explained myself well or if some context or logic has been lost by the translator. If you have any questions, ask.

[adeine]

The important thing is the concept of core Xenon sectors where the AI ​​cannot enter, or rather, where the AI ​​cannot send patrols, raids, invasion forces, or attempt to conquer the sector.

If these sectors cannot be used due to missions or other reasons, other sectors can always be used, or additional Xenon sectors can be added to the base game.

This would be a terrible kludge and undermine the sandbox, living universe nature of the game.

Just balance Xenon in a way they can be viable, and introduce a real endgame challenge based on the Xenon for those who want it.

[Aegir86]

Can't make Xenon function as intended due to performance issues:

*Proceeds to create dlcs that continually add more sectors filled with ambient nothingburger ships and stations*

X4 is an undercover Space game for people who like playing with their model choochoo trains in their basement. They should market it as a cozy economy simulator then.

Modders will eventually get around this without cheap hacks. What an enormous waste of potential though.

[adeine]

Can't make Xenon function as intended due to performance issues:

*Proceeds to create dlcs that continually add more sectors filled with ambient nothingburger ships and stations*

I don't think they've ever said this.

It's mostly people on the forums coming up with excuses why X cannot be done every time someone makes a suggestion, and 'performance' is evergreen as far as these go. If you look at the discussion re: allowing players to use more than one build ship per site for instance, there were replies saying the same thing.

Over the years Egosoft have implemented many things people have argued 'positively cannot be done, will never ever happen' on these boards.

[Hollex]

The important thing is the concept of core Xenon sectors where the AI ​​cannot enter, or rather, where the AI ​​cannot send patrols, raids, invasion forces, or attempt to conquer the sector.

If these sectors cannot be used due to missions or other reasons, other sectors can always be used, or additional Xenon sectors can be added to the base game.

This would be a terrible kludge and undermine the sandbox, living universe nature of the game.

Just balance Xenon in a way they can be viable, and introduce a real endgame challenge based on the Xenon for those who want it.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you, or even understand you.

Preventing the AI ​​from attacking one or two Xenon sectors shouldn't affect the "sandbox" experience or the "living universe" in any way perceptible to the player.

In fact, I'd say it adds dynamism to the universe by preventing a faction from being exterminated by the AI ​​without player intervention.

Honestly, there's nothing more frustrating for me than developing my entire economy, creating a combat fleet to fight the Xenon, and then discovering that the Xenon are practically extinct without my intervention. (I can go to war with other AI empires, but if my roleplaying objective is to destroy Xenon, it ruins the whole point of the current game.)

There are many types of players, I understand that, but my suggestion shouldn't bother any player or their playstyles. Furthermore, I find it strange that this wasn't implemented sooner.

[S!rAssassin]

Alternative I suggest add to Xenon new type of station: Core Station. It should be built in each Xenon sector and provide some passive resources from planet and should can build SE type ships for distribution it. Only one Core Station per sector should be.

[S!rAssassin]

Yes, and no. Not all players enjoy endless combat.

Think, some additional quests from Boso can resolve this problem
Not preselected setting, but dynamic changes by player choice

[vvvvvvvv]

<snip>

I'd rather not see most of this, because it largely removes things that make the game special.

Construction should require resources. It is not reasonable to have solar power on every installation. Module HP is already sky high, because xenon and khaak are toughest structures in the game.

Salvaging wrecks is interesting though, but utility will be limited.

Main problem with xenon is lack of large miners, lack of allies to deliver goods to unfinished construction. Proposed measures do not address that, and instead try to make xenon bypass rules.

Xenon already are treated as special faction, different from organics, because they construct ships from raw ore.

[jlehtone]

Honestly, there's nothing more frustrating for me than developing my entire economy, creating a combat fleet to fight the Xenon, and then discovering that the Xenon are practically extinct without my intervention. (I can go to war with other AI empires, but if my roleplaying objective is to destroy Xenon, it ruins the whole point of the current game.)

Imagine being the cunning commander of Protectorate fleet. The last remains of Xenon are in next sector. You have the technology. You have the power. You can crush the mortal threat for good. Alas, the higher ups do shout: "No! Stop! Hold your fire! Do not enter! We do not have permission."

That would never fit the lore.

Side-note: Players tend to want the things that NPC have. Therefore, if NPC "get" sectors they cannot enter, then surely players should also get sectors that they cannot enter.

Much more relevant is that if NPC ships cannot enter the only sectors that have Xenon remaining, then their rate of death goes down. Death is profitsss. The economy thrives on death. That is why it is essential that the NPC ships can reach their doom.

---


A simplified example:
System with three properties: movement, strength, and job quota
Strength has (A) feeble and (B) stronk.
Movement has (1) stay at home and (2) spread.
Job quota is either galaxy or sector.

• A1 is weak faction. Whatever goes to its sectors first, wipes them out
• A2 is equally weak. Player may see its ships as they roam around (before they are all dead)
• B1 lives. Whatever enters its home, gets quickly killed. Yet, the faction is no existential threat to anyone as it does not invade
• B2 is the real deal. It can and will conquer the Galaxy. Here the job quota makes a difference
  • B2 with galaxy quota has essentially the same fleet regardless of the sectors it has. The more sectors, the less ships it has per sector
  • B2 with sector quota grows as it gets more sectors. It basically fills each sector with equally lethal force

The Xenon in X4 are now clearly in the A categories. They might have had an edge many game versions ago, but no more. No threat, no fun, no profits.

The B2 enemies would be the only real threat, but very easily way too much for many playstyles.

IMHO, the Xenon should be changed towards the B1 type. Have some sort of firepower at their "home sectors" that is far from trivial to dislodge. The other NPC beelining there to be destroyed will provide good trade for everyone (who lives). However, it must remain possible to push them to an another sector (as we players love "diplomacy", aka "painting the map"). Marking particular sector as "sacred, no entry" does not suit those goals.

[Trueam]

<snip>

I'd rather not see most of this, because it largely removes things that make the game special.

Construction should require resources. It is not reasonable to have solar power on every installation. Module HP is already sky high, because xenon and khaak are toughest structures in the game.

Salvaging wrecks is interesting though, but utility will be limited.

Main problem with xenon is lack of large miners, lack of allies to deliver goods to unfinished construction. Proposed measures do not address that, and instead try to make xenon bypass rules.

Xenon already are treated as special faction, different from organics, because they construct ships from raw ore.

Main problem was time that required for xenon to build 1 defense module it was around 2-4 hours, but now dev fixed it and now it is near 45 min. , but they incapable of defending its station building site this is main problem so they cant capture sector in late game wen all faction has sufficient ships and economy , resource was delivered with no problem by SE , and now imagine I'm unite them all under big alliance lol xenon's will be in full defense mode they don't have capabilities to capture any new territory.

I think we need to distinguish between "gameplay depth" and "AI logistical failure."

When I look at a Xenon wharf struggling to get energy cells because their supply chain is fragmented into 1 solar power station with only 2 solar modules in sector since they don't build 2 now, I don’t see an "interesting feature"—I see a bottleneck that forces a faction designed to be an advanced AI to behave like a struggling human logistics company.

The argument that "construction should require resources" is fine, but it’s currently implemented in a way that ignores the Xenon's nature. They are an integrated, machine-based intelligence. It makes zero sense for them to have fragmented stations with limited production modules when their entire existence should be based on recursive efficiency.

My proposal isn't about "bypassing rules," but about fixing the core design flaw:

1. [] Integrated Production: If we allow any major Xenon station to construct SE units directly from reserved internal resources, we eliminate the need for them to rely on an AI logistics system (using S/E miners/transporters) that clearly isn't optimized for them.
   [] AI Logic vs. Human Design: A machine intelligence wouldn't build a limited number of individual modulesl, ike 2 for solar station they should expand its template to 4-8 according to demand ; it would build a sufficient number of modules to create a reserve and a big, self-sufficient structure not only 4 defense module but a number needed to defend sector from enemy forces . Giving stations the ability to handle their own construction needs aligns with the Xenon lore.
2. Capital Ship Utility: Allowing I-class vessels (and M0-class, if implemented) to serve as mobile production or hub points is the logical evolution of a machine faction. They shouldn't be limited by the same arbitrary restrictions as organic empires.

If we want the Xenon to be the endgame challenge we all want, we have to stop treating them like a "faction of humans in metal ships" and let them function as an integrated system, and give them more Big Ships that currently are just inactive decoration like M0, and #Beda- #Deca Teraformers , dreadnought class in game similar to (homeworld) for example, same give to others faction. Making them viable is not "making the game easier"—it's making the AI actually functional.

[vvvvvvvv]

but they incapable of defending its station building site this is main problem so they cant capture sector in late game wen all faction has sufficient ships and economy ,

Strongly depends on luck and game seed. They typically expand into Zya territory and often into getsu fune.

The argument that "construction should require resources" is fine, but it’s currently implemented in a way that ignores the Xenon's nature. They are an integrated, machine-based intelligence. It makes zero sense for them to have fragmented stations with limited production modules when their entire existence should be based on recursive efficiency.

Xenon are the only faction that can build from raw ore. That's where their machine intelligence is shown.

Due to the way building mechanic works, it is faster two build two stations instead of one with all the same modules in one place. And regarding "only two solar modules"... you need to check encyclopedia and see production stats.

1. [] Integrated Production: If we allow any major Xenon station to construct SE units directly from reserved internal resources, we eliminate the need for them to rely on an AI logistics system (using S/E miners/transporters) that clearly isn't optimized for them.
   [] AI Logic vs. Human Design: A machine intelligence wouldn't build a limited number of individual modulesl, ike 2 for solar station they should expand its template to 4-8 according to demand ; it would build a sufficient number of modules to create a reserve and a big, self-sufficient structure not only 4 defense module but a number needed to defend sector from enemy forces . Giving stations the ability to handle their own construction needs aligns with the Xenon lore.
2. Capital Ship Utility: Allowing I-class vessels (and M0-class, if implemented) to serve as mobile production or hub points is the logical evolution of a machine faction. They shouldn't be limited by the same arbitrary restrictions as organic empires.

#1 --> The player should be able to disrupt supply chains, that includes xenon.
#2 --> There's no logical reason to build infinite modules.
#3 --> Production capability will have costs, and a ship capable of building other ships will be inferior to dedicated strike crafts.

One clever thing that could be done would be allowing Hs to mine and haul energy, and adding L wharf. Some of this is done by Terraformer Deep Space Fleet Spawn mod.

The rest I do not like. Because it feels like an arcade game and not a sim. There's also a question "which part of this will make the game more fun"

[jlehtone]

If we want the Xenon to be the endgame challenge we all want, ...

Being "endgame" means that we will attack them when we want (if we want) and feel ready for it.
That is turn means that they must be able to survive and defeat all lesser assaults, but not expand aggressively.

If they do expand and are able to do so, then I cannot spend 10'000 hours to leisurely prepare for the battle.
That is a major problem.

[adeine]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you, or even understand you.

Preventing the AI ​​from attacking one or two Xenon sectors shouldn't affect the "sandbox" experience or the "living universe" in any way perceptible to the player.

In fact, I'd say it adds dynamism to the universe by preventing a faction from being exterminated by the AI ​​without player intervention.

Honestly, there's nothing more frustrating for me than developing my entire economy, creating a combat fleet to fight the Xenon, and then discovering that the Xenon are practically extinct without my intervention. (I can go to war with other AI empires, but if my roleplaying objective is to destroy Xenon, it ruins the whole point of the current game.)

There are many types of players, I understand that, but my suggestion shouldn't bother any player or their playstyles. Furthermore, I find it strange that this wasn't implemented sooner.

Introducing arbitrary limits that make the game more static is not the way to make the universe more dynamic.

The way a lot of people experience X4 with or without realising is that by helping factions (through trading, doing missions, etc.) the balance in the universe actually shifts. In earlier versions of the game where the Xenon were a bit more of a factor, player involvement made a big difference in how well NPC factions would fare against the Xenon and each other. Being able to assist a faction against the Xenon indirectly is a good feature of a sandbox.

Every system that is introduced which only applies to the player or makes exceptions for them detracts from the universe feeling real, or the notion that anything can happen in the simulation. If you 'fix' what is a balancing issue by simply rendering the Xenon off-limits to AI factions, you've taken away one of the main reasons for simulating the entire universe in the first place. Every save would start to look the same.

[Trueam]

If we want the Xenon to be the endgame challenge we all want, ...

Being "endgame" means that we will attack them when we want (if we want) and feel ready for it.
That is turn means that they must be able to survive and defeat all lesser assaults, but not expand aggressively.

If they do expand and are able to do so, then I cannot spend 10'000 hours to leisurely prepare for the battle.
That is a major problem.

I appreciate this breakdown. You are absolutely right—the current Xenon state is essentially a 'Category A' faction, and that is why the sandbox feels hollow once they are wiped out. Moving them toward a 'B1-type' status (strong in their home sectors, but not necessarily a galaxy-conquering tide) is the logical step.

To address your concern about them becoming an aggressive 'timer' that ruins a 10,000-hour playthrough: my proposal for a 'Task Force Doctrine' actually gives the player more agency, not less.

Gatekeepers, not Zerg-rushers: By implementing 'Task Forces' (Dreadnought-led groups patrolling central systems + 1-2 jump radius), the Xenon become 'fortress-style' challenges, Same go to NPC faction. They wouldn't roam the galaxy like a plague; they would act as static, predictable end-game obstacles. You only fight them when you are ready, and you know exactly what you are up against.

Performance as Strategy: By shifting from 'ship spam' to high-impact capital assets, we solve the pathfinding lag and the 'suicide run' issue. This makes combat tactical and cinematic—true fleet engagements—instead of a depressing stream of ships flying into a woodchipper.

The Logistical Foundation: Even as a 'B1' faction, the Xenon need a way to survive their early construction phase. My point about the 3.5-hour vulnerability window for they defense station (Dock + 4 defense modules) . Allowing integrated production from internal resources is the key to letting them build their 'fortress' without constant logistical collapse, and give defense force to construction site strong enough to protect it.

The Roadmap to an Epic Endgame:

Integrated Lore & Assets: Instead of 'sacred sectors,' integrate the Sohnen and mission directors and the advanced Xenon/Terraformer ships (#Deca,#Beda etc.),M0 , Kha'ak Obliterators + The Ravager into the main sandbox. Let them be the defensive pillars of the Xenon, and Khaak installations turning them into the 'B1-type' faction you described.And let Sohnen and mission directors give us a hard mission and unique reward.

Megastructures & Dreadnoughts: We need to move to a larger scale. Incorporating fully functional mega-dreadnoughts and planetary megastructures Torus we already have tech by lore would shift the combat from 'ship spam' to high-stakes strategic engagements, and move most player infrastructure to that torus ring, same go to others faction some production they move to they own megastructure ring and others type, this decrease lags and performance issue

Diplomatic & Narrative Evolution next DLC: We need more than just 'war.' Imagine a future DLC focusing on the Kha'ak playable and Sohnen contact , introducing a completely new, ancient threat that acts as a 'total surprise.' This would provide the ultimate diplomatic tool: forcing the player to act as a 'Grand Commander' who must unite the Commonwealth, the Xenon, Kha'ak and under the Sohnen lead against an new existential enemy.

We aren't asking for a 'harder' game that forces a rush; we are asking for a 'deeper' game where the Xenon are a static, formidable obstacle that rewards strategic preparation. We have the lore, the models, and the engine—it’s time to stop treating these assets as 'inactive decorations' and turn them into the core of an endgame experience that actually challenges the player and delivers epic space story .

[GCU Grey Area]

The way a lot of people experience X4 with or without realising is that by helping factions (through trading, doing missions, etc.) the balance in the universe actually shifts. In earlier versions of the game where the Xenon were a bit more of a factor, player involvement made a big difference in how well NPC factions would fare against the Xenon and each other. Being able to assist a faction against the Xenon indirectly is a good feature of a sandbox.

Agree with this. My usual way to play X4 is to pick a faction (or small group of related factions, e.g. ANT+ARG) & work more or less exclusively for them. My stations & freighters are only permitted to trade with these factions, almost all missions I take are done for them & I chose plot outcomes which are most beneficial for them. I don't play 'friends with everyone' games & never try to conquer the universe personally. I instead derive vicarious pleasure from watching my chosen faction(s) defeating their enemies & painting the map in their colours, knowing that my actions were instrumental in shifting the balance of power in their favour. This also means that the Xenon survive much better in my games than the apparent fate of the Xenon in other people's games that I read about here. Whatever faction(s) I'm supporting tend to do well against the Xenon, however the remaining factions do not fare nearly so well. The factions I'm not supporting still have significant inefficiencies in their economies (that I'm doing absolutely nothing to rectify) & are often losing significant assets in warfare with my chosen faction(s), meaning they're much less capable of defending themselves against the Xenon. Suspect there may be a strong correlation between games played on a 'friends with everyone' basis & games in which Xenon are in danger of extinction.

[vvvvvvvv]

If they do expand and are able to do so, then I cannot spend 10'000 hours to leisurely prepare for the battle.
That is a major problem.

Should you be able to prepare for 10k hours though? Because the player can become unstoppable in 60. I'm also unsure if they're an "end-game" challenge. Wiping them or triggering the crisis should be an end game challenge.

[Themroc]

Once again, all the talk is about more war
Not that I'm shying away from a proper war xD

Keep it simple

In X3,

the Xenons didn’t have that forced relocation to peaceful systems
and there weren’t any intervention corps (Terrans) as strong as that either

Xenons continue to send their forces that a must have
and give the Xenons enough resources in their sectors

According to Steam, I’m at 7,500 hours and will start over again with X4 9.0
without Terran DLC

My two cents

[jlehtone]

Should you be able to prepare for 10k hours though? Because the player can become unstoppable in 60.

I'd say that "zero" and "infinite" are the easiest picks. Anything between them is divisive.