[9.0 Beta 2] Feedback: Xenon seem to really struggle

[Jon Tetrino]

Noticed this, had a conversation with folks on the Discord and it seems to be a consistent thing.

Regardless of save game, the Xenon are really struggling to gain a foothold in the galaxy in 9.0. As far as we can tell, it's because their linchpin fleet vessels - the K - are simply ineffectual now that Destroyers have new logic for their combat.

Essentially, the K and I attempt to act like Destroyers. But they have no main batteries, so this translates to "sitting outside of their turret range, moving a bit." The result of this is that their main weapon sets don't hit anything and they get easily overwhelmed.

Because the Xenon need to continually resupply to make up losses even without the player involvement, they end up in a death spiral where their economy will not - and literally can not - keep up with even the basic state of the game. This turns them into not even a nuisance for the majority of a playthrough.

I have no idea how to fix this. Give the K's and I's the old Destroyer behavior back so they can use their turrets effectively? Boost the Xenon economy somehow to make up for this and let them pump out more ships? Not a clue, but it needs looking at.

[imanitu209]

Also because their graviton turret damage and accuracy got nerfed by half.

[adeine]

Xenon have been suffering for a long time, and the situation has got worse with each major version of the game since 3.0. I think the Graviton turret damage nerf is a good thing in principle: it makes engagements less of a binary (in range -> dead, out of range -> safe). It does need to match or outrange other factions' weapons though.

In my opinion, some of the biggest issues holding the Xenon back and possible solutions:

Xenon suicide their miners into hostile territory
·> Improve blacklisting and make sure newly built miners don't try to assist other pockets of Xenon territory which are disconnected. Make sure miners flee rather than engage.
·> Give Xenon L mining ships which are sturdier and can survive light harassment and carry larger quantities of resources at a time, like other factions
·> Make completed Xenon modules spawn 'civilian' mining drones, which can slowly mine in nearby resource fields. This way, a Xenon pocket is not inevitably doomed if it loses its mining ships provided they can defend their stations and territory long enough to rebuild them.

Defence modules no longer defend
·> Balance/fix defence modules in a way that lone destroyers can't just wipe out entire sectors. Since destroyers outrange any fixed defence module and attack logic is sufficiently good now to take advantage of this, stations just die if there is no fleet nearby. This affects all factions, but especially the Xenon. Once an area of Xenon loses its fleet (or it is distracted elsewhere), wharves and shipyards are dead.

Xenon fleets are massively out of date compared to the Community of Planets
·> Give missiles and torpedoes to the Xenon fleet.
·> Reintroduce the Xenon J (carrier) and make sure it can hold a large complement of fighters/bombers. Undefended Xenon K/I are a common sight, and quite vulnerable. Adding a fully loaded Xenon J to the standard fleet would make it a lot trickier to engage them head on.
·> Give the Xenon auxiliary ships allowing for quick mobile repairs and resupply
·> Reintroduce the Xenon Q as a light destroyer/cruiser (a la Hyperion) which can more rapidly respond to threats.

The X4 universe has outgrown the Xenon
·> Significantly raise the jobs quota and growth limit for the Xenon. So many factions and sectors have been added over the years while the caps on Xenon growth seem to have remained stagnant. Since everyone and everywhere is hostile to the Xenon, they've become increasingly spread thin to the point where people intentionally concentrate Xenon in a single pocket (by wiping out all others) just so they have a chance to locally match other factions in terms of numbers.

[W1ND]

1. Add new groups with the M0 battleship.
2. Give missiles to the Xenon.
3. Change the Xenon behavior so that they approach the enemy very, very quickly to within range of their turrets.

[stooper88]

Count me in as another proponent of protecting the Xenon. I wholeheartedly agree that there's no clear "easy" solution as every attempt to "rebalance" seems to inevitably offend some part of the community. As much as I can understand the appeals of players who want the firepower to live out their power fantasies and ability to steamroll enemy sectors, I can't see how any of it will matter once no more Xenon are left. The argument that balance isn't relevant in a single player sandbox seems to overlook the danger that, without any support for equilibrium, the sandbox will be dead.

In my opinion, some of the biggest issues holding the Xenon back and possible solutions:

Xenon suicide their miners into hostile territory
...
Defence modules no longer defend
...
Xenon fleets are massively out of date compared to the Community of Planets
...
The X4 universe has outgrown the Xenon
...

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of these remarks as I agree that there ought to be other avenues for preserving the Xenon aside from endlessly buffing/debuffing various combat variables. It would be so refreshing and reassuring to see ES take action on these types of suggestions.

I am just suggesting how the player should be able to make Xenon a threat again in the late game, if they want so.

Indeed! It strikes me as odd that even suggestions to simply provide an *OPTION* to revive Xenon get criticized for violating some sacred eradication premise, as if anyone deliberately exterminating the Xenon would lose all self-control and be unable to resist resurrecting Xenon against their will.

Considering how Kha'ak spawn endlessly and even pirates arbitrarily spawn into existence rather than embark from wharves and shipyards, I can't help but wonder why "new life" can't similarly but conditionally be granted to Xenon, i.e. as a final resort. Whether by undiscovered gate network, random anomalies, Yaki or Ektoberyll plots, a Corin King breakthrough, or other means, whatever the lore justification may be, it seems long overdue for some way to allow players to restore and reinforce the ever-faltering Xenon.

Spoiler

Show

A precedent exists in the form of a quantum data shard hidden in a lockbox near a defunct Xenon station. This was provided specifically to allow players a means to conduct the Xenon Special Equipment research in save games where Xenon no longer survived.

[BitByte]

I'm not sure if SE behaviour have changed since 7.10hf3 (still in that version). But what I can say Xenon takes much better care from miners and power distribution SEs.
In my game only ships which come out from Xenon territory are "extra" and they try deliver resources to new construction sites. Yes from time to time there also comes empty SE which is heading somewhere more further.
In overall Xenon have stayed alive in my game very well after I blocked TER Shipyard. They re constantly sending out masses of S&M fighters and more rarely K & I but yes those come too.

[Raptor34]

Xenon M0 that is an all-in-one. I.e. it also mines and builds ships. And integrated power plants.
Limitation is it's too big to go through gates so have to be built on site.

Bonus, it should be a starting test for mobile stations.

[adeine]

after I blocked TER Shipyard

See the issue here? There is a common thread on these forums of people saying how the Xenon are doing fine in their games, only to somewhere else reveal the lengths they go to to actively break the sandbox just so they don't die. Fair enough, but it does make it difficult for devs to gauge feedback on the current state of the game since at that point your game state might as well be modded (such as by disabling other factions' ability to build capital ships).

[BitByte]

after I blocked TER Shipyard

See the issue here? There is a common thread on these forums of people saying how the Xenon are doing fine in their games, only to somewhere else reveal the lengths they go to to actively break the sandbox just so they don't die. Fair enough, but it does make it difficult for devs to gauge feedback on the current state of the game since at that point your game state might as well be modded (such as by disabling other factions' ability to build capital ships).

Blocking TER shipyard does not change the fact what I wrote about Xenon protecting their SEs and not performing suicide by sending all of them out like they did in version 6.x. Game versions <=5.10hf3b and >=7.0-7.10hf3 (cannot comment further versions) SEs stay in Xenon territory and serve Shipyards and Wharfs fine. So from my perspective there's no need to increase blacklisting.
Just counted from my current game: 21 Mining SE + 14 Power Distribution SE ships are operating in Family Kritt - Matrix #598 corner. That number have stayed very stable that same level long time now. I haven't touched any of them which stay inside but ships which come out to Zyarth's Dominion or Family Zhin are in danger. Ships which come out are usually heading towards construction sites as Xenon tries to expand their territory.

Xenon ability stay functional as they lack to firepower and long-range weapons I agree they would need something to improve situation.

[Stardolphin]

Blocking TER shipyard does not change the fact what I wrote about Xenon protecting their SEs and not performing suicide by sending all of them out like they did in version 6.x. Game versions <=5.10hf3b and >=7.0-7.10hf3 (cannot comment further versions) SEs stay in Xenon territory and serve Shipyards and Wharfs fine. So from my perspective there's no need to increase blacklisting.
Just counted from my current game: 21 Mining SE + 14 Power Distribution SE ships are operating in Family Kritt - Matrix #598 corner. That number have stayed very stable that same level long time now. I haven't touched any of them which stay inside but ships which come out to Zyarth's Dominion or Family Zhin are in danger. Ships which come out are usually heading towards construction sites as Xenon tries to expand their territory.

Xenon ability stay functional as they lack to firepower and long-range weapons I agree they would need something to improve situation.

Since you are still playing old version, your observation does not match current game state. This topic is Xenon in 9.0 Beta 2, and I've not seem any report about the suicidal SE behavior in 8.0 is fixed so far.

[OtakuWeasel]

Noticed this, had a conversation with folks on the Discord and it seems to be a consistent thing.

Regardless of save game, the Xenon are really struggling to gain a foothold in the galaxy in 9.0. As far as we can tell, it's because their linchpin fleet vessels - the K - are simply ineffectual now that Destroyers have new logic for their combat.

Essentially, the K and I attempt to act like Destroyers. But they have no main batteries, so this translates to "sitting outside of their turret range, moving a bit." The result of this is that their main weapon sets don't hit anything and they get easily overwhelmed.

Because the Xenon need to continually resupply to make up losses even without the player involvement, they end up in a death spiral where their economy will not - and literally can not - keep up with even the basic state of the game. This turns them into not even a nuisance for the majority of a playthrough.

I have no idea how to fix this. Give the K's and I's the old Destroyer behavior back so they can use their turrets effectively? Boost the Xenon economy somehow to make up for this and let them pump out more ships? Not a clue, but it needs looking at.

The xenon have been pathetically weak ever since they got nerfed several versions back.

In my games I spend more time trying to protect them rather than fight them.

With the Terrans/Asgard being so immensely op, the Xenon are easily the single weakest, most pathetic faction in the game currently - and very often get wiped out by the NPC factions alone ( specifically Teladi and Terrans ).

We need a slider, game setting or SOMETHING that gives us the power to boost the xenon's strength/behaviour in vanilla/custom game starts.
We NEED a seeding system for the Xenon or some mechanic to repopulate them if they get wiped out.
Or we need a second (costly) Yaki Beacon to summon a new swarm into the galaxy.
Weapon rebalancing alone wont fix the xenon. They need to be adjusted to remain a threat.

Even pushing the big red Yaki button is still anemic (though this one has improved, but still not much chance Xenon will make it past Mars )

[Blaze1st]

I'm on 8.0 HF4 recently started a new game and only Xenon I killed were Rhy's Defiance area (Split game).

North-west Xenon pocket is struggling with Energy. Low sector energy output anyway and PAR bee lined their solar plant early. They are rebuilding it now but PAR forces are also amassing I suspect they will get wiped out eventually.

North-east pocket has only a Defense Station since game start so no growth.

Xenon are pushing back into Matrix #451 after VIG destroyed MIN shipyard but this seems a rare occurance.

Only Tharka's cascade and Atiya's Misfortune sectors really start with a good footing from which they can expand assuming the player doesn't block them. North maybe if player doesn't care about Split.