Please re-work Asgard main weapon

[Ragnos28]

Well, it's "in the works" now, sort of speak: viewtopic.php?t=474498

The convention for the Ray is...if you break the beam, you can't fire again, untill full cooldown, and of course, you need to recharge the weapon.

What I would like to see for the Asgard rework is something similar in principle: If the beam is interrupted, the weapon must wait for full cooldown before firing again, if you use a small portion of the heat bar, cooling will be proportionally faster than if you consume the entire heat bar, this would still reward proper heat management, but it would remove the current disproportionate benefit of rapid micro-tapping. For example, if you use 1/3 of the heat bar to takeout a xenon K, must wait for the cooling of that 1/3 before firing again.

Technically, it might still be possible to “feather” the heat bar in extremely small increments, but that would be far less efficient than the current tapping behavior.

But you realise, that it's mathematically the same as long as you don't heat to 100%, right? I made that example already in this very thread.

Not exactly, because in my test, I've stoped in the orange: https://youtu.be/xeJMgY7PPQw?t=55 was never in the red, never 100%, take a look,
and yet :

Normal firing: First shot 00:55 --- module destroyed 03:20 (2:25 total)
Micro-tapping: First shot 05:27 --- module destroyed 06:20 (0:53 total)

Simple example: An imaginary weapon cools down as fast as it heats and that function is linear. So 1 sec of fire = worth 1 sec of heat, built up while firing, cooling down for 1sec when not firing. Overheats when you have build up 10sec of heat.

Version A: fire 1 sec, wait 1 sec, fire 1 sec = 30 seconds of fire in 60 seconds.
Version B: fire 9 seconds, wait 9 seconds, fire 9 seconds = 33 seconds of fire in 60 seconds, 30 seconds if you adjust it so it's cooled down at 60s like Version A (3 x 9 + 3 seconds).

Your "micro tapping" isn't really anything special.
But at least there's a proper bug report. I suspect, they'll cut the raw damage of the beam, as that is probably too high.

"Micro tapping" reduced the time required to destroy the same module by more that 50%, I would argue that is quite special.

[decifer]

Not exactly, because in my test, I've stoped in the orange: https://youtu.be/xeJMgY7PPQw?t=55 was never in the red, never 100%, take a look,

I think it was Cpt. Snuggles - but I might be wrong - who said he supsects there's already a penalty at orange but couldn't really prove it - or didn't bother.
But the simple calculation shows there must be some kind of penalty, if you have lower dps when going in the orange range. Firing without penalty MUST result in the same outcome, that's just math.
Make the same test with shooting until you barely hit the orange range. If you stay blue all the time, it should be the same as "micro tapping".
But also, there's the bug report. So that should clarify intended behavior anyways.

edit: there might also be some kind of initial damage, only applied once per "shot". That might actually add up in your example. But I wouldn't mind such thing to be removed, as I'd agree that that'd probably be a bug or at least unnecessary.

[Ragnos28]

Not exactly, because in my test, I've stoped in the orange: https://youtu.be/xeJMgY7PPQw?t=55 was never in the red, never 100%, take a look,

I think it was Cpt. Snuggles - but I might be wrong - who said he supsects there's already a penalty at orange but couldn't really prove it - or didn't bother.
But the simple calculation shows there must be some kind of penalty, if you have lower dps when going in the orange range. Firing without penalty MUST result in the same outcome, that's just math.
Make the same test with shooting until you barely hit the orange range. If you stay blue all the time, it should be the same as "micro tapping".
But also, there's the bug report. So that should clarify intended behavior anyways.

Yeah, not a bad idea for a test. I think any increment that would keep me in blue would work.
I've overwrite the save, but I can always use the one from the bug report.

[decifer]

Yeah, not a bad idea for a test. I think any increment that would keep me in blue would work.
I've overwrite the save, but I can always use the one in the bug report.

You can stop firing when you hit orange. If there's a penalty, it should be so small that result is still way closer to your tapping than going full in.

[flywlyx]

I think the AI does just fine: https://youtu.be/sVDq-6u3B50?t=259 , I don't even think the AI have the concept of conserving the heatbar for multiple uses, seem to be using the full beam, all the time
And Asgard does not precharge, the main battery is alpha strike. Moving from target to target is so slow for the Asgard, that I believe there is plenty of time for the heatbar to clear.

That Xenon I isn’t moving properly because of collision avoidance, which basically turns it into a sitting duck, I wouldn’t call that a moving target.
They made a collision avoidance update that causes large capital ships to really struggle maneuvering in asteroid fields. This is an example: https://youtu.be/08OwCQ7WkTA

[Ragnos28]

I think the AI does just fine: https://youtu.be/sVDq-6u3B50?t=259 , I don't even think the AI have the concept of conserving the heatbar for multiple uses, seem to be using the full beam, all the time
And Asgard does not precharge, the main battery is alpha strike. Moving from target to target is so slow for the Asgard, that I believe there is plenty of time for the heatbar to clear.

That Xenon I isn’t moving properly because of collision avoidance, which basically turns it into a sitting duck, I wouldn’t call that a moving target.
They made a collision avoidance update that causes large capital ships to really struggle maneuvering in asteroid fields. This is an example: https://youtu.be/08OwCQ7WkTA

If you watch from the beginning, the xenon I was actually more agile than the Asgard. Is just that both ships are incredibly slow, in everything they do...the Asgard was fielding a whopping 56 m/s speed, I don't want to think about the turning rates of an unmodded Asgard.

I think the xenon I in your clip was hindered by the close proximity of one of the Ks, just like when you are moving a fleet, one of your destroyers get on top of your carrier, and then the carrier AI pilot is stuck at 56 m/s, despite having 128 m/s top speed. If you take manual control, you can go to top speed, the AI cannot. Is actually quite frustrating when exiting gates with fleets in high attention.

[Ragnos28]

I think it was Cpt. Snuggles - but I might be wrong - who said he supsects there's already a penalty at orange but couldn't really prove it - or didn't bother.
But the simple calculation shows there must be some kind of penalty, if you have lower dps when going in the orange range. Firing without penalty MUST result in the same outcome, that's just math.
Make the same test with shooting until you barely hit the orange range. If you stay blue all the time, it should be the same as "micro tapping".
But also, there's the bug report. So that should clarify intended behavior anyways.

edit: there might also be some kind of initial damage, only applied once per "shot". That might actually add up in your example. But I wouldn't mind such thing to be removed, as I'd agree that that'd probably be a bug or at least unnecessary.

Finished the test: https://youtu.be/p8wG62s8IGc

Here are the results:

Safe/blue heat:
Normal firing: First shot 00:11 → module destroyed 02:35 (2:24 total)
Micro-tapping: First shot 04:45 → module destroyed 05:40 (0:55 total)

compared with the first test:

Warm/orange heat:
Normal firing: First shot 00:55 → module destroyed 03:20 (2:25 total)
Micro-tapping: First shot 05:27 → module destroyed 06:20 (0:53 total)

So, I gain 1 second on the normal firing test, staying in the blue, the "orange" penalty, was 1 second out of 2.25 minutes.
And I lost 2 seconds on the micro tapping test, because my double tapping skills seem to vary a bit.

I'd say that the conclusions of my initial test remain, ~2.5 x faster with micro tapping.

[decifer]

I think it was Cpt. Snuggles - but I might be wrong - who said he supsects there's already a penalty at orange but couldn't really prove it - or didn't bother.
But the simple calculation shows there must be some kind of penalty, if you have lower dps when going in the orange range. Firing without penalty MUST result in the same outcome, that's just math.
Make the same test with shooting until you barely hit the orange range. If you stay blue all the time, it should be the same as "micro tapping".
But also, there's the bug report. So that should clarify intended behavior anyways.

edit: there might also be some kind of initial damage, only applied once per "shot". That might actually add up in your example. But I wouldn't mind such thing to be removed, as I'd agree that that'd probably be a bug or at least unnecessary.

Finished the test: https://youtu.be/p8wG62s8IGc

Here are the results:

Safe/blue heat:
Normal firing: First shot 00:11 → module destroyed 02:35 (2:24 total)
Micro-tapping: First shot 04:45 → module destroyed 05:40 (0:55 total)

compared with the first test:

Warm/orange heat:
Normal firing: First shot 00:55 → module destroyed 03:20 (2:25 total)
Micro-tapping: First shot 05:27 → module destroyed 06:20 (0:53 total)

So, I gain 1 second on the normal firing test, staying in the blue, the "orange" penalty, was 1 second out of 2.25 minutes.
And I lost 2 seconds on the micro tapping test, because my double tapping skills seem to vary a bit.

I'd say that the conclusions of my initial test remain, ~2.5 x faster with micro tapping.

So there must be an error how the damage is applied then in short burst. Either an initial component per shot or a minimum that's always applied no matter how short the actual shot. Let's wait for the bug report then.

[Ragnos28]

So there must be an error how the damage is applied then in short burst. Either an initial component per shot or a minimum that's always applied no matter how short the actual shot. Let's wait for the bug report then.

Seem that heat management work as intended, stoping at orange get you the same overall cooling period as stoping at blue...and I suppose there is some penalty if you go in to red.
The interaction that "does not play by the rules" is micro tapping.

[decifer]

So there must be an error how the damage is applied then in short burst. Either an initial component per shot or a minimum that's always applied no matter how short the actual shot. Let's wait for the bug report then.

Seem that heat management work as intended, stoping at orange get you the same overall cooling period as stoping at blue...and I suppose there is some penalty if you go in to red.
The interaction that "does not play by the rules" is micro tapping.

A quick look Roguey's shows that there's indeed something very off between burst and sustained damage.

Maybe they handle the beam internally as projectile(s) and you managed to keep the bursts shorter than the calculation accounts for, therefore basically shooting multiple projectiles worth of dmg while the heat is only applied once. But that's just a wild guess.

Edit: after comparing other beam weapons, the TER have a very unique profile hardly comparable to the other races - at least I couldn't find anything similar. The Meson Stream however, is similar with a whopping 3x higher burst dmg than sustained. Still not the 6x of the ATF battery, but still a similar pattern. So not sure, if those values are actually relevant. I never dug too deep into X4 dmg calculations. But I also don't need to find the bug

[Ragnos28]

So there must be an error how the damage is applied then in short burst. Either an initial component per shot or a minimum that's always applied no matter how short the actual shot. Let's wait for the bug report then.

Seem that heat management work as intended, stoping at orange get you the same overall cooling period as stoping at blue...and I suppose there is some penalty if you go in to red.
The interaction that "does not play by the rules" is micro tapping.

A quick look Roguey's shows that there's indeed something very off between burst and sustained damage.

Maybe they handle the beam internally as projectile(s) and you managed to keep the bursts shorter than the calculation accounts for, therefore basically shooting multiple projectiles worth of dmg while the heat is only applied once. But that's just a wild guess.

Now, that's interesting.
I'm a bit confused by the value of 14.6 seconds of Burst DPS Length, while the beam duration is 2.89 seconds, and Roguey define Burst DPS as damage per second before reaching the maximum heat level.
It should have been Burst DPS 316,846.8 x 2.89 = 915,684.94 dmg for the full beam, not sure how the value of 14.6 fit in.

[decifer]

Seem that heat management work as intended, stoping at orange get you the same overall cooling period as stoping at blue...and I suppose there is some penalty if you go in to red.
The interaction that "does not play by the rules" is micro tapping.

A quick look Roguey's shows that there's indeed something very off between burst and sustained damage.

Maybe they handle the beam internally as projectile(s) and you managed to keep the bursts shorter than the calculation accounts for, therefore basically shooting multiple projectiles worth of dmg while the heat is only applied once. But that's just a wild guess.

Now, that's interesting.
I'm a bit confused by the value of 14.6 seconds of Burst DPS Length, while the beam duration is 2.89 seconds, and Roguey define Burst DPS as damage per second before reaching the maximum heat level.
It should have been Burst DPS 316,846.8 x 2.89 = 915,684.94 dmg for the full beam, not sure how the value of 14.6 fit in.

Yeah, that's why I didn't even bother to check it earlier as I don't feel like the values there are meaningful for beam weapons. Apparently all they do is reading the xml files, but especially with beam weapons somehow all sources seem to have weird numbers - or I just miss something. But I also never really cared too much, especially when it comes to weapons with no alternative anyways.

[flywlyx]

If you watch from the beginning, the xenon I was actually more agile than the Asgard. Is just that both ships are incredibly slow, in everything they do...the Asgard was fielding a whopping 56 m/s speed, I don't want to think about the turning rates of an unmodded Asgard.

I think the xenon I in your clip was hindered by the close proximity of one of the Ks, just like when you are moving a fleet, one of your destroyers get on top of your carrier, and then the carrier AI pilot is stuck at 56 m/s, despite having 128 m/s top speed. If you take manual control, you can go to top speed, the AI cannot. Is actually quite frustrating when exiting gates with fleets in high attention.

They’re stuck in the asteroid field because the gaps between the asteroids are too small for them to navigate through. The current collision avoidance system doesn’t work well for capital ships in dense asteroid fields.
If the enemy is a K, the Asgard doesn’t stand a chance.https://youtu.be/2xCG_m50i4s

[Ragnos28]

If you watch from the beginning, the xenon I was actually more agile than the Asgard. Is just that both ships are incredibly slow, in everything they do...the Asgard was fielding a whopping 56 m/s speed, I don't want to think about the turning rates of an unmodded Asgard.

I think the xenon I in your clip was hindered by the close proximity of one of the Ks, just like when you are moving a fleet, one of your destroyers get on top of your carrier, and then the carrier AI pilot is stuck at 56 m/s, despite having 128 m/s top speed. If you take manual control, you can go to top speed, the AI cannot. Is actually quite frustrating when exiting gates with fleets in high attention.

They’re stuck in the asteroid field because the gaps between the asteroids are too small for them to navigate through. The current collision avoidance system doesn’t work well for capital ships in dense asteroid fields.
If the enemy is a K, the Asgard doesn’t stand a chance.https://youtu.be/2xCG_m50i4s

That is, and will be the case in the vast majority of similar scenarios, because unmodded Asgard is, in truth, an awful ship, is just that the player slaps all kind of purple mods, with rerolls, put other races engines, usually split, and so on, to make it somewhat maneuverable. The AI Asgard is more of an OOS wonder... Used to be invulnerable OOS, some updates ago.
And yeah, a xenon K travel drive on top of an Asgard is almost always bye bye Asgard, tho I see from time to time intervention Asgard using the L beam turrets to defang the attacking K.

In relation to my proposed re-work of the Asgard main battery....AI Asgard does not exactly snipe xenon Ks from the sky, as it is. Is not a matter of AI heat management, but a matter of the AI actually aiming the damn nose.

To be honest, the performance of AI Asgards don't concern me much, as someone that really wish for intervention Asgards to leave my xenon "crops" alone.

[flywlyx]

That is, and will be the case in the vast majority of similar scenarios, because unmodded Asgard is, in truth, an awful ship, is just that the player slaps all kind of purple mods, with rerolls, put other races engines, usually split, and so on, to make it somewhat maneuverable. The AI Asgard is more of an OOS wonder... Used to be invulnerable OOS, some updates ago.
And yeah, a xenon K travel drive on top of an Asgard is almost always bye bye Asgard, tho I see from time to time intervention Asgard using the L beam turrets to defang the attacking K.

In relation to my proposed re-work of the Asgard main battery....AI Asgard does not exactly snipe xenon Ks from the sky, as it is. Is not a matter of AI heat management, but a matter of the AI actually aiming the damn nose.

To be honest, the performance of AI Asgards don't concern me much, as someone that really wish for intervention Asgards to leave my xenon "crops" alone.

It has nothing to do with the Asgard itself; the issue is that the AI can’t handle the ship properly. If the weapon required a charging time, it would only shorten the firing window and make the AI perform even worse.
At the current stage, if the Xenon I isn’t stuck in an asteroid field, the Asgard has no chance of defeating it. https://youtu.be/ZiVe7Nw-1Zo

[Ragnos28]

That is, and will be the case in the vast majority of similar scenarios, because unmodded Asgard is, in truth, an awful ship, is just that the player slaps all kind of purple mods, with rerolls, put other races engines, usually split, and so on, to make it somewhat maneuverable. The AI Asgard is more of an OOS wonder... Used to be invulnerable OOS, some updates ago.
And yeah, a xenon K travel drive on top of an Asgard is almost always bye bye Asgard, tho I see from time to time intervention Asgard using the L beam turrets to defang the attacking K.

In relation to my proposed re-work of the Asgard main battery....AI Asgard does not exactly snipe xenon Ks from the sky, as it is. Is not a matter of AI heat management, but a matter of the AI actually aiming the damn nose.

To be honest, the performance of AI Asgards don't concern me much, as someone that really wish for intervention Asgards to leave my xenon "crops" alone.

It has nothing to do with the Asgard itself; the issue is that the AI can’t handle the ship properly. If the weapon required a charging time, it would only shorten the firing window and make the AI perform even worse.
At the current stage, if the Xenon I isn’t stuck in an asteroid field, the Asgard has no chance of defeating it. https://youtu.be/ZiVe7Nw-1Zo

Ahh....that is a misunderstanding, I don't want the Asgard to have a charging time, I just want that as soon as you break the beam, to have to wait for the weapon to go to full cooldown before firing again, that is what I meant by similar with the Ray.
Like my tests have shown, the cooling "math" is consistent, if you stop the beam in the "orange", and let it go to full cooldown before firing, you will have the same DPS overall, as if you stop in the "blue", and let the beam go to full cooldown before firing, was literally 1 sec delay over the 02:25 period it took to destroy the test station module, in both cases.

Well, this is how I see it, the devs solution might differ.

[thedavid]

I want the Asgard gun to be EVEN MORE POWERFUL!!!!

Why do I need to target each module of a station? I want to shoot one module and then ALL modules as well as any ships that are too close all go boom is an epic explosion for the ages.

[thedavid]

Let's remember that in order to get an Asgard without using a mod you have to not only get rep with the Terrans but you have to then have a shipyard and build it.

Ok ok. Yes you can board one but either way it takes a massive amount of effort by the player to get an Asgard. Let it be a reward.

When I show up in a sector with an Asgard I want all the ships to tremble in fear, awe, and respect. If anything needs to change it is that the local police should never bother me when I'm in an Asgard. Helming an Asgard is the equivalent of entering another country's waters flying my own flag and showing that I'm willing to fight for my colors. All local ships are on notice.

[Ragnos28]

I want the Asgard gun to be EVEN MORE POWERFUL!!!!

Why do I need to target each module of a station? I want to shoot one module and then ALL modules as well as any ships that are too close all go boom is an epic explosion for the ages.

Why bother with the Asgard at all
Make a petition for Egosoft to add a "destroy" option for all NPC assets in the game, right click, select destroy, and all goes boom Of course, it should be available for selections as well...
Imagine, you enter a sector, select all stations and ships, select destroy....and boom
It will be glorious

[flywlyx]

Ahh....that is a misunderstanding, I don't want the Asgard to have a charging time, I just want that as soon as you break the beam, to have to wait for the weapon to go to full cooldown before firing again, that is what I meant by similar with the Ray.
Like my tests have shown, the cooling "math" is consistent, if you stop the beam in the "orange", and let it go to full cooldown before firing, you will have the same DPS overall, as if you stop in the "blue", and let the beam go to full cooldown before firing, was literally 1 sec delay over the 02:25 period it took to destroy the test station module, in both cases.

Well, this is how I see it, the devs solution might differ.

This would only punish the AI, which doesn't track the target properly and doesn't know to hold the firing button, while barely affecting players.
I wouldn’t call handicapping the AI a good way to fix a bug.