Please re-work Asgard main weapon

[Shadow_rainbow]

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But I'm not just talking 'too easy'. That, I can deal with by not piloting it and watching from the bridge. I mean, I could if AI used it properly.
The thing is, it does not behave like a superweapon it is. It fires the moment you press the button and allows for way too short bursts for such a megaweapon. It's like using Big Bertha to shoot at infantry by making it shoot bullet-sized balls one at a time, with the same resulting shot mass as a proper shell -- but over time.

That's what damages it in my eyes. And I've described how you can make it better -- by making visible and audible pre-charge, like some weapons in the game already do, but with much more 'oomph' and glowing parts. Also, making it go 'brrrrt' once it has charged up is a natural thing. Based on my experience, I'd make a maximum of 2 separate long bursts per reload. Perhaps even longer than current ones, but uninterruptible -- if you've pressed that fire button, you're committed.

That would give it a much needed character it sorely misses in my eyes.

Ravagers’ main weapon behaves as you described: it charges slowly and overheats after firing. The problem is clear Ravagers struggle to hit moving targets in high attention combat.
Considering that Ravagers are far more agile than Asgards, I think this kind of change would make Asgards almost incapable of hitting moving targets in high attention combat.

It didn't even come to my mind since it was only once that I have experienced it and it was from 1st person perspective. Not that I could pilot a Ravager.
Looking it up on YT, yes, that's exactly how I would like my Asgard to fire. Except with ability to stop at each quarter or third of the heat bar. With some bells and whistles, that would make a very nice superweapon.

As for Ravagers struggling to hit moving targets, it's not like Asgard fires its laz0r at agile targets. Destroyers, on the other hand, can easily wait for 1-2 or even 4-5 seconds of charging time without changing the battlefield much. We're not talking 5 minute charge-ups here)

[Shadow_rainbow]

PoE

GGG is hard on balancing it BTW. Made the game so unfun I've quit. So yes, balancing stuff to make the game better is exceedingly hard, while making it unbalanced to the point it becomes boring is not easy, too. If we're talking games like that, I can easily remember Warframe which, despite some balance passes, provides not a way in which you will struggle, but a way in which you destroy your enemies en masse. So you are correct, non-balanced is often the very fun of it.

Still, I think Asgard would not lose much from what I've proposed above about charge up time and minimum firing duration. Not so much a balance but a character.

[decifer]

PoE

GGG is hard on balancing it BTW. Made the game so unfun I've quit. So yes, balancing stuff to make the game better is exceedingly hard, while making it unbalanced to the point it becomes boring is not easy, too. If we're talking games like that, I can easily remember Warframe which, despite some balance passes, provides not a way in which you will struggle, but a way in which you destroy your enemies en masse. So you are correct, non-balanced is often the very fun of it.

Still, I think Asgard would not lose much from what I've proposed above about charge up time and minimum firing duration. Not so much a balance but a character.

This wasn't about any of the games mentioned but about the fact that sometimes unbalanced stuff is fun. And I personally play games to have fun. I literally just took the first few games that came to mind when thinking of YT shorts. There was no thought about the games or balance in those games itself.

I can get behind any argument about giving it more "character". I can understand people who want to have the death star feeling or just want to have it to feel more powerful. However, I can not get behind any argument that it's OP/unbalanced and thus it has to be nerfed for everyone because some people don't have enough self control to not use/abuse (in their eyes) it and need the game to restrict them in use of the Asgard. And those who just enjoy it as it is are told to use mods while those who want to change the game for everyone don't accept that argument.

[Nerwesta]

The fact that you think unbalanced tools are fun is purely a subjective argument. You're not that unique, everyone like playing for fun I think, doesn't mean unbalance should necessarily be embraced.
Most ships in this game are kind of balanced for the record.
With due respect, you're gate-keeping people that do want to have a change and talk about it, you keep championing the subjective part on their opinion but literally do one yourself.

Again, asking for people to have self-control on not using a tool in the game shall they see it as too powerful is a bad way to address the unbalancing part, and the Asgard is a not a minor part of the DLC and it's stories.
( also used by the AI by the way )

edit :

And those who just enjoy it as it is are told to use mods while those who want to change the game for everyone don't accept that argument.

You literally asked people to use mods if they see it as too powerful, that's a funny contradiction
We both know you and me such mod is not likely to happen, but the contrary ( current Asgard ) would pop in mere seconds if Egosoft dares to nerf it.
People who didn't like the crystal nerf could install a mod too, examples are many.

[decifer]

We both know you and me such mod is not likely to happen, but the contrary ( current Asgard ) would pop in mere seconds if Egosoft dares to nerf it.

So, do I get this right:
The change you're asking for is so unpopular that no modder bothers to create a mod like it. But the moment your proposed change was implemented they'd rush to create a reverse fix?
You didn't really think that through, did you?

[Nerwesta]

The fact that you think unbalanced tools are fun is purely a subjective argument. You're not that unique, everyone like playing for fun I think, doesn't mean unbalance should necessarily be embraced.
Most ships in this game are kind of balanced for the record.
With due respect, you're gate-keeping people that do want to have a change and talk about it, you keep championing the subjective part on their opinion but literally do one yourself.

Again, asking for people to have self-control on not using a tool in the game shall they see it as too powerful is a bad way to address the unbalancing part, and the Asgard is a not a minor part of the DLC and it's stories.
( also used by the AI by the way )

edit :

And those who just enjoy it as it is are told to use mods while those who want to change the game for everyone don't accept that argument.

You literally asked people to use mods if they see it as too powerful, that's a funny contradiction
We both know you and me such mod is not likely to happen, but the contrary ( current Asgard ) would pop in mere seconds if Egosoft dares to nerf it.
People who didn't like the crystal nerf could install a mod too, examples are many.

See, the problem is, right now, everyone can decide not to tap fire the weapon at multiple capital ships. Just hold the button until the gun overheats and your overpoweredness problems are solved. Or just shot the secondary batteries at ships and the beam only at stations.
You ask for a change I can't simply undo by adjusting my playstyle while you could ignore your issues by own choice right now. That's entitlement at it's best.

Yes, it is highly subjective and I said that multiple times - you just ignore that, probably by choice. But you're putting your preference over others when realising what you ask for would restrict others while the current situation has absolutely no negative effects or effects you couldn't simply avoid by using the gun in a "balanced" matter. And that is objective. You can use the Asgard in a way that would make it feel balanced right now. So I'm not gatekeeping anything when I'm just against a change that would only restrict something without adding anything. Which is actually gatekeeping. You want to reduce options, not me.
There's no improvement or addition I don't want to happen. Restricting the weapons adds nothing.

The mods already exists, your assumption is wrong (again). There's VRO, there are multiple Asgard Variants, changes to the gun etc.
But again, even if not, you wouldn't even need one to play "balanced".

But let's consider your statement for a moment: "such mod is not likely to happen".
I wonder why you think that? Maybe because there's not enough interest in this change? So you're arguing yourself that the change would be so unpopular, that no modder would waste their time to make a mod to address this unbearable balance issue?
And: "but the contrary ( current Asgard ) would pop in mere seconds if Egosoft dares to nerf it" - so that's how popular the current system is? And you want to change that into the unpopular one no modder even bothers to implement?
Nice one.

That the Asgard is even underpowered in AI hands was also stated by multiple people here, not by me. So that's actually a bad argument for your side.

But you keep repeating things that are already adressed multiple times in the thread, you just ignore the answers/discussions and pick random parts to argue about. And your arguments are not even consistent, as shown above. So my feeling is you rather want to argue for the sake of arguing. I'll not jump on that train (or better, I'm leaving it now).

You're the one bringing the subjective / objective gotcha on multiple occasions, not me. Anyhow it's really not an interesting point to be debated on.

Please let me know where do you see I was wrong about the modded Asgard, you provided the VRO example which is awesome, I hope you really get the sense on how ridiculous it is to install a whole overhaul mod just to tinker a single ship.
Let me know, here for example where do you see a " nerfed " Asgard.

Edit : There is ONE mod on Nexus I totally missed from 5 years ago ( under Gameplay category ), I'll leave the rest of my message as is in all fairness.

The fact of the matter is that modded and especially revisited ships are very commonly overpowered because people like to mod that way.
But as I said earlier, that doesn't hold firm on what should be balanced on base game in my opinion, two different nuances.
So in the end and contrary to your beliefs, it totally reinforces my position that you could mod the Asgard if you want to one shot things, that's already a popular reason to mod this game.
See, everyone is happy on that theorical realm.

With that said, I made a rather long message adressing every single points you made, I took the time for it and tried to be as fair as possible, perhaps you didn't see it or you conveniently left unresponded.
That's just a shame you decide to go low and point fingers at me.


edit : Interesting, the above message you wrote isn't (fully) here anymore.

[Ragnos28]

Like I stated before, the core issue, in my opinion, is that Egosoft introduced the overheat mechanic to balance the use of main batteries (and other weapon systems).
However, micro-tapping allows the Asgard to effectively bypass that mechanic, and the magnitude of benefit from doing so is disproportionately high compared to other ships in the game.
When the Ray was able to partially bypass the same heat mechanic before 6.2 beta 7 (“Fixed charging weapons cooling down while holding shots to be released”), it was deemed problematic and adjusted.
Tbh, at first I believed that the Ray's "bypass" was a feature to allow it to go past the shield regeneration rate of a ship like the xenon I, especially with the lack of heavy hitting boron L turrets... I was so innocent.

So from my perspective, the inconsistency is this:
Ray partially bypassing overheat -> adjusted
Asgard effectively bypassing overheat through micro-tapping -> unchanged

That’s why I’m framing this rather as a design consistency issue, than just “Asgard OP.”

As for the “just don’t use it” argument — that option no longer existed for players using Rays, once the mechanic was removed.

If the principle is that heat bypassing undermines balance, then it should apply consistently....and if that is not the case, just say so..."the Asgard will bypass the overheat mechanic and you will like it"..."ogey boss"

PS: I believe the "just mod it" argument, is unfair for both sides of the "leave it/re-work it" debate.

[decifer]

Like I stated before, the core issue, in my opinion, is that Egosoft introduced the overheat mechanic to balance the use of main batteries (and other weapon systems).
However, micro-tapping allows the Asgard to effectively bypass that mechanic, and the magnitude of benefit from doing so is disproportionately high compared to other ships in the game.
When the Ray was able to partially bypass the same heat mechanic before 6.2 beta 7 (“Fixed charging weapons cooling down while holding shots to be released”), it was deemed problematic and adjusted.
Tbh, at first I believed that the Ray's "bypass" was a feature to allow it to go past the shield regeneration rate of a ship like the xenon I, especially with the lack of heavy hitting boron L turrets... I was so innocent.

So from my perspective, the inconsistency is this:
Ray partially bypassing overheat -> adjusted
Asgard effectively bypassing overheat through micro-tapping -> unchanged

That’s why I’m framing this rather as a design consistency issue, than just “Asgard OP.”

As for the “just don’t use it” argument — that option no longer existed for players using Rays, once the mechanic was removed.

If the principle is that heat bypassing undermines balance, then it should apply consistently....and if that is not the case, just say so..."the Asgard will bypass the overheat mechanic and you will like it"..."ogey boss"

PS: I believe the "just mod it" argument, is unfair for both sides of the "leave it/re-work it" debate.

Pretty sure, we were there before.
You can bypass the heat penalty with almost every weapon. So the Asgard is consistent, the Ray the exception. The game is consistent.

But even the Ray doesn't apply the overheat penalty all the time, shooting is just locked until cooled down. You can see that when you actually overheat. Then there's a slight delay before cooling starts. If you don't fully overheat the bar is orange (not overheated) and then turns red while cooling just to indicate the lock, but it cools down immediately. So you still have a higher total ROF if you don't fully overheat and you can bypass the penalty.
Bypassing the penalty is an intended mechanic, giving you a bonus if you use weapons correctly. It doesn't undermine any balance, it's part of the balance.

And there's still no reason that every weapon has to be the same. Asgard and Ray are totally different technologies used by different races with different doctrines. The Asgard is an old war relic from the ATF, build for maximum efficiency and power projection. The Ray is build by the rather pacifistic Boron, it's just natural that their focus is not the most effective destructive weapon. That also reflects in their other weapons. There's no reason to compare the two - and ignore all other weapons that work just like the Asgard when it comes to heat and cooling. The Ray could just have an adjusted weapon for cultural and lore reasons and that would be a totally good reason.

And you are assuming it was fixed because it was "deemed problematic". But that's just another assumption. Maybe it was just because the weapon design was intented to be like that from the beginning. Maybe it's supposed to have a different characteristic. And it's also more in line with other charged weapons, like the Erlking or the Muon Charger. There's no reason to assume it's a behaviour all beam main batteries are supposed to have. You don't charge the ATF battery, it's a different weapon.

And, like I said, you can simply fix this by just not tapping the gun. Just hold space until it overheats. Or wait until it cools down. Or just use the secondary batteries for ships and the beam for stations only. Why does the game need to have hard restriction on something you could easily solve on your own if you think it's wrong?

[Ragnos28]

Pretty sure, we were there before.
You can bypass the heat penalty with almost every weapon. So the Asgard is consistent, the Ray the exception. The mechanic is consistent.

Yes, but the Asgard bypassing it, have a tremendous dmg output compared to ANY other ship in the game.
If this is to be believed: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2826705145 :

Asgard Main Battery Stats

DPS 12.242
Damage Per Shot 954.931

Beam DPS 330.246
Beam Duration 2.89s
Max Range 14000m

I figure that 12.242 is the dmg per tapp. Not sure if the 330.246 would be the dmg per tap, seem a bit high for that to be the case, but I would not be surprised, tbh...

The mechanic may be broadly consistent, but its scaling impact is not. The Asgard’s ability to micro-tap translates into extreme sustained damage efficiency on the highest alpha-strike platform in the game. That is the part I find disproportionate.

But even the Ray doesn't apply the overheat penalty, shooting is just locked until cooled down. You can see that when you actually overheat. Then there's a slight delay before cooling starts. If you don't fully overheat the bar is orange (not overheated) and then turns red while cooling just to indicate the lock, but it cools down immediately. So you still have a higher total ROF if you don't fully overheat and you can bypass the penalty.
Bypassing the penalty is an intended mechanic, giving you a bonus if you use weapons correctly.

With the Ray, you are always in the red, as soon as you stop firing the weapon, no matter how you try to manage the heat. And we have full recharge period in order to fire the weapon, every time, I gain nothing from heat management.
If heat bypass is considered an intended reward for correct usage, then the Ray should benefit similarly. If it is considered problematic when it significantly increases efficiency, then the Asgard case deserves the same scrutiny.
I would not mind the Asgard having a lower cool down if only a small portion of the heat capacity was used, giving a bonus if you use weapons correctly, as you said, I would not expect the cooldown period to be the same, no matter the heat generated by the weapon. Is just that tapping deliver the full burst per second of the Asgard beam, and it can be pressed even multiple times per second (keys on the keyboard tend to be very sensitive).

And there's still no reason that every weapon has to be the same. Asgard and Ray are totally different technologies used by different races with different doctrines. The Asgard is an old war relic from the ATF, build for maximum efficiency and power projection. The Ray is build by the rather pacifistic Boron, it's just natural that their focus is not the most effective destructive weapon. That also reflects in their other weapons. There's no reason to compare the two - and ignore all other weapons that work just like the Asgard when it comes to heat and cooling. The Ray could just have an adjusted weapon for cultural and lore reasons and that would be a totally good reason.

Sure, here is an AI controled Asgard one shot a xenon I: https://youtu.be/sVDq-6u3B50 , no annihilator purple mods on the XL battery, no tapping involved...I don't expect the Ray to do the same.
I compared the two, not because I expect the same dmg output from them, but because heat management is rewarded in the case of the Asgard (and all other destroyers), you can fire again, and again, and again..., while, from what I see, the same cannot be said in the case of the Ray, or the benefits are greatly diminished.

[Ragnos28]

And you are assuming it was fixed because it was "deemed problematic". But that's just another assumption. Maybe it was just because the weapon design was intented to be like that from the beginning. Maybe it's supposed to have a different characteristic. And it's also more in line with other charged weapons, like the Erlking or the Muon Charger. There's no reason to assume it's a behaviour all beam main batteries are supposed to have. You don't charge the ATF battery, it's a different weapon.

Even if we don’t know for sure what was the internal reasoning, the result was that a heat-bypassing interaction was removed from the Ray. That establishes precedent that similar mechanics can be adjusted when they significantly alter performance characteristics.

And, like I said, you can simply fix this by just not tapping the gun. Just hold space until it overheats. Or wait until it cools down. Or just use the secondary batteries for ships and the beam for stations only. Why does the game need to have hard restriction on something you could easily solve on your own if you think it's wrong?

For the “just don’t tap” argument...players can always self-restrict. But balance discussions are usually about whether dominant optimal behavior should depend on player restraint or on built-in mechanical tradeoffs.
If micro-tapping allows the Asgard to maintain extreme sustained efficiency with minimal drawback, then not using it becomes a voluntary handicap rather than a real tactical choice. That’s why I see this as a systems question rather than a personal playstyle issue.

[jlehtone]

When accumulating heat reaches some level, let say 100%, the gun is in overheat state and cannot fire any more.

Guns on my Corvette can fire again when their heat level cools back to just below that 100%.
The main beam of Asgard cannot fire again, before the heat level has cooled down to ~20%.
However, if it has not overheated yet, then you can keep firing at intervals even when you are already at 95%.

The Ray beam is automatically on overheat, no matter how short burst you fire, and has to wait the heat to drop to 0%, before the overheat is over. However, the Ray's beam can continue to burn in its "overheated" state until heat reaches that 100%. (There is also that additional charging period from when you start to press to when the gun shoots. Like lighting the match cord of a cannon.)


It did look like that two taps of Asgard (no wait in between), took about 90k from target's shield. I don't have stop-watch to see how much time it was from start of first tap to end of second tap, that is, how much damage one continuous press that long would produce (or how the produced heats differ).

[Ragnos28]

Finally I have some numbers.

I recorded a test using the Asgard against a Xenon solar power plant (dock module): https://youtu.be/xeJMgY7PPQw

Normal firing: First shot 00:55 --> module destroyed 03:20 (2:25 total)

Micro-tapping: First shot 05:27 --> module destroyed 06:20 (0:53 total)

Result: Micro-tapping reduces total engagement time by more than half, this bypasses the heat/cooldown penalty entirely, effectively rewarding a playstyle the system was likely meant to discourage.
Other ships, like the Ray, don’t gain nearly this much benefit from heat management. The Asgard’s tapping mechanic produces a disproportionate advantage, exposing an inconsistency in design philosophy: same mechanic, vastly different impact.

Hmm, I think is time for a bug report...

[jlehtone]

"Regular" gun creates a bullet and when the bullet hits target, the damage is delivered in instant.

"Charging" gun allows to use time before the bullet is created and possibly the amount of damage in the bullet is function of the time used. Ray does not seem to charge in that sense, as the time required before bullet creation seems to be fixed. If the "size" of bullet can be changed based on time of charge, then the natural question is whether that function makes the maximally charged bullet less, equal, or more powerful than same time used for minimum-damage shots.

The beam is bit different as it can exist for longer time. Not "instant" hits like with bullets. It does not produce damage continuously either, for the game evaluates everything at discrete timepoints. "DPS is 100/sec, so last time interval of 1 msec would have caused 0.1 of damage. Lets round it to 0?" Anyway, just like with charged shots, the elongated beamtime may be less or more efficient than consecutive minimal stabs.

The consecutive mikrotaps being fourfold in damage to continuous long burns feels way too large a difference, even if the heat would be fourfold too.

[Ragnos28]

Well, it's "in the works" now, sort of speak: viewtopic.php?t=474498

The convention for the Ray is...if you break the beam, you can't fire again, untill full cooldown, and of course, you need to recharge the weapon.

What I would like to see for the Asgard rework is something similar in principle: If the beam is interrupted, the weapon must wait for full cooldown before firing again, if you use a small portion of the heat bar, cooling will be proportionally faster than if you consume the entire heat bar, this would still reward proper heat management, but it would remove the current disproportionate benefit of rapid micro-tapping. For example, if you use 1/3 of the heat bar to takeout a xenon K, must wait for the cooling of that 1/3 before firing again.

Technically, it might still be possible to “feather” the heat bar in extremely small increments, but that would be far less efficient than the current tapping behavior.

[flywlyx]

Well, it's "in the works" now, sort of speak: viewtopic.php?t=474498

The convention for the Ray is...if you break the beam, you can't fire again, untill full cooldown, and of course, you need to recharge the weapon.

What I would like to see for the Asgard rework is something similar in principle: If the beam is interrupted, the weapon must wait for full cooldown before firing again, if you use a small portion of the heat bar, cooling will be proportionally faster than if you consume the entire heat bar, this would still reward proper heat management, but it would remove the current disproportionate benefit of rapid micro-tapping. For example, if you use 1/3 of the heat bar to takeout a xenon K, must wait for the cooling of that 1/3 before firing again.

Technically, it might still be possible to “feather” the heat bar in extremely small increments, but that would be far less efficient than the current tapping behavior.

And AI won’t be able to use it against almost any moving target anymore. You can see how AI currently handles Asgards when fighting a destroyer. Now imagine adding a 5 second delay,since the AI doesn’t know how to precharge the weapon, charging stops as soon as the target moves out of alignment.
The Ravager is already underpowered but not completely useless thanks to its faster turning speed; however, it simply won’t work on an Asgard.

[Ragnos28]

Well, it's "in the works" now, sort of speak: viewtopic.php?t=474498

The convention for the Ray is...if you break the beam, you can't fire again, untill full cooldown, and of course, you need to recharge the weapon.

What I would like to see for the Asgard rework is something similar in principle: If the beam is interrupted, the weapon must wait for full cooldown before firing again, if you use a small portion of the heat bar, cooling will be proportionally faster than if you consume the entire heat bar, this would still reward proper heat management, but it would remove the current disproportionate benefit of rapid micro-tapping. For example, if you use 1/3 of the heat bar to takeout a xenon K, must wait for the cooling of that 1/3 before firing again.

Technically, it might still be possible to “feather” the heat bar in extremely small increments, but that would be far less efficient than the current tapping behavior.

And AI won’t be able to use it against almost any moving target anymore. You can see how AI currently handles Asgards when fighting a destroyer. Now imagine adding a 5 second delay,since the AI doesn’t know how to precharge the weapon, charging stops as soon as the target moves out of alignment.
The Ravager is already underpowered but not completely useless thanks to its faster turning speed; however, it simply won’t work on an Asgard.

I think the AI does just fine: https://youtu.be/sVDq-6u3B50?t=259 , I don't even think the AI have the concept of conserving the heatbar for multiple uses, seem to be using the full beam, all the time
And Asgard does not precharge, the main battery is alpha strike. Moving from target to target is so slow for the Asgard, that I believe there is plenty of time for the heatbar to clear.

[decifer]

Well, it's "in the works" now, sort of speak: viewtopic.php?t=474498

The convention for the Ray is...if you break the beam, you can't fire again, untill full cooldown, and of course, you need to recharge the weapon.

What I would like to see for the Asgard rework is something similar in principle: If the beam is interrupted, the weapon must wait for full cooldown before firing again, if you use a small portion of the heat bar, cooling will be proportionally faster than if you consume the entire heat bar, this would still reward proper heat management, but it would remove the current disproportionate benefit of rapid micro-tapping. For example, if you use 1/3 of the heat bar to takeout a xenon K, must wait for the cooling of that 1/3 before firing again.

Technically, it might still be possible to “feather” the heat bar in extremely small increments, but that would be far less efficient than the current tapping behavior.

But you realise, that it's mathematically the same as long as you don't heat to 100%, right? I made that example already in this very thread.

Simple example: An imaginary weapon cools down as fast as it heats and that function is linear. So 1 sec of fire = worth 1 sec of heat, built up while firing, cooling down for 1sec when not firing. Overheats when you have build up 10sec of heat.

Version A: fire 1 sec, wait 1 sec, fire 1 sec = 30 seconds of fire in 60 seconds.
Version B: fire 9 seconds, wait 9 seconds, fire 9 seconds = 33 seconds of fire in 60 seconds, 30 seconds if you adjust it so it's cooled down at 60s like Version A (3 x 9 + 3 seconds).

Your "micro tapping" isn't really anything special.
But at least there's a proper bug report. I suspect, they'll cut the raw damage of the beam, as that is probably too high.

[decifer]

But even the Ray doesn't apply the overheat penalty, shooting is just locked until cooled down. You can see that when you actually overheat. Then there's a slight delay before cooling starts. If you don't fully overheat the bar is orange (not overheated) and then turns red while cooling just to indicate the lock, but it cools down immediately. So you still have a higher total ROF if you don't fully overheat and you can bypass the penalty.
Bypassing the penalty is an intended mechanic, giving you a bonus if you use weapons correctly.

With the Ray, you are always in the red, as soon as you stop firing the weapon, no matter how you try to manage the heat. And we have full recharge period in order to fire the weapon, every time, I gain nothing from heat management.
If heat bypass is considered an intended reward for correct usage, then the Ray should benefit similarly. If it is considered problematic when it significantly increases efficiency, then the Asgard case deserves the same scrutiny.
I would not mind the Asgard having a lower cool down if only a small portion of the heat capacity was used, giving a bonus if you use weapons correctly, as you said, I would not expect the cooldown period to be the same, no matter the heat generated by the weapon. Is just that tapping deliver the full burst per second of the Asgard beam, and it can be pressed even multiple times per second (keys on the keyboard tend to be very sensitive).

You literally ignored what I wrote.
The overheat penalty is NOT the red bar. The penalty is a slight delay until cooling starts.
The red bar is a weapon lock.

The weapon of the Ray is just locked, not penalized, until reaching 100% heat. There's no loss in damage if you avoid 100% heat.
edit: except for the charge time, of course. If you optimize charge time vs heat build up, you can also "cheese" the Ray.

[Ragnos28]

But even the Ray doesn't apply the overheat penalty, shooting is just locked until cooled down. You can see that when you actually overheat. Then there's a slight delay before cooling starts. If you don't fully overheat the bar is orange (not overheated) and then turns red while cooling just to indicate the lock, but it cools down immediately. So you still have a higher total ROF if you don't fully overheat and you can bypass the penalty.
Bypassing the penalty is an intended mechanic, giving you a bonus if you use weapons correctly.

With the Ray, you are always in the red, as soon as you stop firing the weapon, no matter how you try to manage the heat. And we have full recharge period in order to fire the weapon, every time, I gain nothing from heat management.
If heat bypass is considered an intended reward for correct usage, then the Ray should benefit similarly. If it is considered problematic when it significantly increases efficiency, then the Asgard case deserves the same scrutiny.
I would not mind the Asgard having a lower cool down if only a small portion of the heat capacity was used, giving a bonus if you use weapons correctly, as you said, I would not expect the cooldown period to be the same, no matter the heat generated by the weapon. Is just that tapping deliver the full burst per second of the Asgard beam, and it can be pressed even multiple times per second (keys on the keyboard tend to be very sensitive).

You literally ignored what I wrote.
The overheat penalty is NOT the red bar. The penalty is a slight delay until cooling starts.
The red bar is a weapon lock.

The weapon of the Ray is just locked, not penalized, until reaching 100% heat. There's no loss in damage if you avoid 100% heat.

Well, I believe that the Asgard should also have the red bar weapon lock. What is good for the Ray, must be also be good for the Asgard.
No tapping for the Ray, no tapping for the Asgard, seem like a reasonable take.

And I'm not convinced the Ray weapon behave in the way you describe, I would need to perform some tests with a stop-watch to be sure.

[decifer]

Well, I believe that the Asgard should also have the red bar weapon lock. What is good for the Ray, must be also be good for the Asgard.
No tapping for the Ray, no tapping for the Asgard, seem like a reasonable take.

And I'm not convinced the Ray weapon behave in the way you describe, I would need to perform some tests with a stop-watch to be sure.

Whatever makes you happy, it's something to do in the game at least
Consider my edit in your tests:

edit: except for the charge time, of course. If you optimize charge time vs heat build up, you can also "cheese" the Ray.

The lock alone doesn't change anything in sustained damage, see 3 posts above.