Xenon needs a upgrade.

[vvvvvvvv]

To be honest, I think I, along with most of my friends are done with the X Universe until the Xenon are sorted out.

2nd start with the Envoy DLC and AGAIN without any help from myself within 2 game days the Xenon are all but wiped out. Teladi have easily taken the Matrix sectors, Faulty logic has fallen to the HOP and even the northern Split are pushing into the Xenon sectors (which was a first).

So unless I spend hours cultivating influence and starting artificial wars with Diplomacy the X universe economy grinds to a halt.

Question ... Why do the Xenon send pitiful fleets of 1 I and 3 k's when there are sometimes upto 15 faction destroyers guarding the gate? Why don't they have decent fleets?

In 8.0 HOP receivedd new connection (void of opportunity <-> holy vision), so it shouldn't casually roflstomp xenon anymore.

I had a feeling that K might've had a bit more HP during this playthrough as Erlking din't bulldoze through them as usual.

Also, in general... in custom start, I'd recommend not to start with TRI. Results in loss of war guilds, and the faction, while serene, is very bland/boring.

[jlehtone]

You are speaking of two sectors therefore this example is pretty bad ...

Too reduced. Could have said "two clusters", one where sectors change ownership and other, where that does not happen (except with big player involvement). The clear issue is that then the Galaxy at large is not dynamic.It is unavoidable that if there are two sandboxes side by side where in one you can build undisturbed and in the other you have to fight, then you/someone wants to build within the fight and/or fight in the other (because all those castles are clearly made for storming).

Question ... Why do the Xenon send pitiful fleets of 1 I and 3 k's when there are sometimes upto 15 faction destroyers guarding the gate? Why don't they have decent fleets?

I have not seen "1 I and 3 k". I have seen "1 I, 2 K, and couple escorts" and "1 K and couple escorts" types of fleets. Granted, a pair of those fleets shows up often. Likewise, I don't think any faction (except player) has a fleet with 15 destroyers.

However, the number of ships in a faction fleet seems to have increased (definite example: number of fighters on a Carrier used to be pitiful, except Raptor and Tokyo fleets). Number of fleets may have increased too. Since fleets tend to move together (e.g. the Xenon 1I2K and 1K fleets), it is no surprise that 3-4 destroyer fleets lurk at same Gate. The Xenon might have gotten more S/M fleets (or they all just compressed to same pocket due to lost pockets), but overall Xenon seem to have received less love than the other jobs.

Can you admit that facing two K and one I can be an intimidating experience when you are a new player?
(We veterans do know that they can vanish while you blink. Big but fragile.)

[vvvvvvvv]

Can you admit that facing two K and one I can be an intimidating experience when you are a new player?
(We veterans do know that they can vanish while you blink. Big but fragile.)

Last time when Xenon were intimidating for me was before version six. Where an I was a homewrecker which would bulldoze through everything, blow up multiple ships in theway, level all stations, and follow the highway, while being unfazed by the incoming fire and probably giggling in binary. While the defense fleets fly to it, like moth to the flame, to be annihilated and meet their end.

Then I played the game a lot, played rebirth VR a lot, and an I became a minor annoyance.

But going back to your argument, if an "I" is merely "intimidating" for a new player, doesn't mean it should be cracked up so it becomes TERRIFYING or horrifying instead? It is supposed to be the ultimate xenon ship. Stuff of legends. Harbringer of Doom, the end of all organics, the eater of stations. Etc.

It certainly does not live to its reputation now.

[jlehtone]

But going back to your argument, if an "I" is merely "intimidating" for a new player, doesn't mean it should be cracked up so it becomes TERRIFYING or horrifying instead? It is supposed to be the ultimate xenon ship. Stuff of legends. Harbringer of Doom, the end of all organics, the eater of stations. Etc.

It certainly does not live to its reputation now.

True. Every player has a limit after which "lets play something else" wins. Truly TERRIFYING would push most of us over that limit. On the other hand, Damian above seems to have reached that limit, not because I is scary, but because it is not. Ideally, there would be a window of horrifying that would have players on this side of the limit. Whether there is or not, the current I is not even close.

Even if the I were scary proper, we run out of them.

[vvvvvvvv]

But going back to your argument, if an "I" is merely "intimidating" for a new player, doesn't mean it should be cracked up so it becomes TERRIFYING or horrifying instead? It is supposed to be the ultimate xenon ship. Stuff of legends. Harbringer of Doom, the end of all organics, the eater of stations. Etc.

It certainly does not live to its reputation now.

True. Every player has a limit after which "lets play something else" wins. Truly TERRIFYING would push most of us over that limit. On the other hand, Damian above seems to have reached that limit, not because I is scary, but because it is not. Ideally, there would be a window of horrifying that would have players on this side of the limit. Whether there is or not, the current I is not even close.

Even if the I were scary proper, we run out of them.

I would prefer to have pre-version six experience I outline above, where a K on highway was a major event, an I needed to have an alert for that. An I would be a much bigger deal.

I think the issue here is that Xen K and I should not be functioning like normal ships. Instead it should be boss ships. With varying weapons, attack patterns and such.

For example, imagine if the "eye" could shoot an asgard-like beam. Or damaged turrets would retract into hull to quickly repair. Or if it could hunker down, shut down engines to start rapidly recharge shield. Or emit disruption field that disrupts boost and travel drive and drain shields. Or if there were a lot more turrets. Or if it could launch missile swarms. It shouldn't become a full gimmick fight though.

[GCU Grey Area]

For example, imagine if the "eye" could shoot an asgard-like beam. Or damaged turrets would retract into hull to quickly repair. Or if it could hunker down, shut down engines to start rapidly recharge shield. Or emit disruption field that disrupts boost and travel drive and drain shields. Or if there were a lot more turrets. Or if it could launch missile swarms. It shouldn't become a full gimmick fight though.

Think the problem with that might be how NPC factions would cope against that sort of threat, or if they'd even exist after a few hours of being attacked by such overwhelming firepower.

[vvvvvvvv]

Think the problem with that might be how NPC factions would cope against that sort of threat, or if they'd even exist after a few hours of being attacked by such overwhelming firepower.

That is not overwhelming. They'd' scramble large swarms against rare K/I and slowly defeat it.

In general... take a look like Elite Dangerous handless Thargoids. Now, thargoid fight is not that good, because it is gimmicky. They implemented "phases", where you can kill the "boss" only by doing things in one specific sequence. That's not the right way to do it. But some variable abilities, or larger firepower would liven things up quite a bit. It is just I think it really shouldn't act like a normal ship.

Should I outline thargoid combat as an example?

[Damian Swift]

It's not that the I or even K's aren't a threat, it's just that when an I or even a few K,s pop through a gate there is invariably a large group of commonwealth/Terran destroyers waiting for them that soon mop them up with no real problem.

Maybe start as now (single I and maybe 2-3 K's ) early game as not to harm new/starting players then maybe once a certain sum is reached (say 500 million credits) or all ship mods researched at HQ etc... then the Xenon becomes a stronger force - maybe a couple of I's and a few K's in a fleet.

Sadly no guarantee they'll be any Xenon left by the time any of there conditions are met due to how weak the Xenon are at present.

[moako]

You are speaking of two sectors therefore this example is pretty bad ...

Too reduced. Could have said "two clusters", one where sectors change ownership and other, where that does not happen (except with big player involvement). The clear issue is that then the Galaxy at large is not dynamic.It is unavoidable that if there are two sandboxes side by side where in one you can build undisturbed and in the other you have to fight, then you/someone wants to build within the fight and/or fight in the other (because all those castles are clearly made for storming).

No that isn't what I meant. The idea isn't to have such a stringent line in mid- and longterm but you need to start with something and as long as X4 hasn't more sectors it is the best way to start.
Finally the goal must be to have a dynamic universe in all the sectors but I think this needs some time for Dev's.

[Cresent]

Hey,


I've been wanting to start a new game for weeks, but what's stopping me is the state of the Xenon.
They are so weak that they were obliterated in my last few gaming sessions without me doing anything about it. I find that extremely annoying.

I understand the problem with the player headquarters—but maybe that's the problem and not Xenon. Devaluing an entire part of the game to keep an unnecessary location for the headquarters doesn't seem right to me.

I also know that there are mods – but that's not what I'm looking for, and I also know that Egosoft has told us: it can't be a simple slider, it's too complex.
I also understand the point that a large part of the player base does not welcome a greater threat because it does not suit their play style.

But we have scenarios. Why can't we use them? Everyone who likes strong Xenos would get what they want, and everyone else could avoid it.
I think with the diplomatic update, this would fit perfectly at this point. A super-strong, growing Xeno Threat (joke intended) and you have to unite the factions to survive!

I don't see why that would be wrong. Okay, I don't know how many players would like such an addition, and therefore I don't know if the numbers would justify the (possibly bigger) effort to deliver it. But please...

Edit: I am also aware about the Xeno Endgame Crisis - but I am looking for a organic threat evolving over the game session, not an player startet event on rails. I dont want to blame the crisis - it is fine - just not what I want in the first place.

[jlehtone]

First forum page has at least two other (active) discussions about weak Xenon.
I honestly don't know whether multiple threads has better or worse chance to make a difference.

I understand the problem with the player headquarters—but maybe that's the problem and not Xenon. Devaluing an entire part of the game to keep an unnecessary location for the headquarters doesn't seem right to me.

What problem is that? Please explain.

But we have scenarios.

What is a "scenario"?

[Cresent]

What problem is that? Please explain.

As far as I understand, Hatikvah is under siege at the beginning of the game. If the Xenos are too strong, the option for player's headquarters would be isolated and new or passive players would end up in a dead end.

What is a "scenario"?

I mean the starting conditions that you can select before beginning a new game.

[jlehtone]

What problem is that? Please explain.

As far as I understand, Hatikvah is under siege at the beginning of the game. If the Xenos are too strong, the option for player's headquarters would be isolated and new or passive players would end up in a dead end.

What is a "scenario"?

I mean the starting conditions that you can select before beginning a new game.

The starts change only what you have at start, not the Galaxy. Granted, some starts do have couple additional/modified story missions.

A start with "more Xenon" would also add "a slider" -- with two notches: this and the other starts. Which starts would you recommend to new players then: some "easy", where Xenon drop dead ASAP, or the one where they eat the player for breakfast?


The PHQ is in Heretics End only if Boron DLC is present and enabled. If Boron space exists, then HE is not a complete dead end.

If I were "new and passive", then I would ignore the PHQ for a long time and roam elsewhere. Maybe.
(I was never new and I did ignore the PHQ a short while -- 600+ hours.)

[Cresent]

What problem is that? Please explain.

As far as I understand, Hatikvah is under siege at the beginning of the game. If the Xenos are too strong, the option for player's headquarters would be isolated and new or passive players would end up in a dead end.

What is a "scenario"?

I mean the starting conditions that you can select before beginning a new game.

The starts change only what you have at start, not the Galaxy. Granted, some starts do have couple additional/modified story missions.

A start with "more Xenon" would also add "a slider" -- with two notches: this and the other starts. Which starts would you recommend to new players then: some "easy", where Xenon drop dead ASAP, or the one where they eat the player for breakfast?

That is not a natural law. It is just how it is now. You could offer a doomsday scenario. Xeno is more powerful and aggressiv and, maybe, factions are at war. Your option: use diplomacy to unite factions, or some of them or be strong enough to fight the Xenos on your own.

The PHQ is in Heretics End only if Boron DLC is present and enabled. If Boron space exists, then HE is not a complete dead end.

If I were "new and passive", then I would ignore the PHQ for a long time and roam elsewhere. Maybe.
(I was never new and I did ignore the PHQ a short while -- 600+ hours.)

Ah ok, I thought the station in Hatikvah is necessary to progress towards the PHQ - but then i am wrong.

[Khryshain]

Having read through the thread, I think many of the suggestions are really valid. However, atm, the Xenon get stomped quite easily. I've tried a few mods to improve Xenons and they do work but not much. There is one however that I'm using on my current playthrough. It simply gives you the ability to spawn a small to large number of Xenon (or Kh'aak). I don't go mad with it but just spawn some in relevant places in sectors. In my current playthrough, the Xenon occupy just over a third of the map which is a lot more interesting. It will do until Egosoft give us some more options.

[vvvvvvvv]

Having read through the thread, I think many of the suggestions are really valid. However, atm, the Xenon get stomped quite easily.

I've started a new game recently, and xenon seems to hold better.

I think the most important thing that improves their survival is not having TRI in the game. Because TRI is peaceful, united and huge, so it annihilates Atiya's pretty much within first hours and from there things are only gonna get worse. As someone said "the best idea about paranid plot is to never do that plot". Xenon even tried to push into Getsu fune.

Then again, maybe I got a good seed.

[moako]

What problem is that? Please explain.

As far as I understand, Hatikvah is under siege at the beginning of the game. If the Xenos are too strong, the option for player's headquarters would be isolated and new or passive players would end up in a dead end.

Yes this is definite one of the issues. It depends on the start where you can find the PHQ but mostly it is placed in Heretics End.
And if you like to use your PHQ as a production place than you need customers and a big part of your customers are beyond the Hatikvah sector. So you need access through the Hatikvah sectors especially for L-traders.
But that is only possible if the xenon haven't a foothold in this sector.

After you have done some of the missions you get access to the Boron sectors and you need this to get ressources from this area. It makes the live much easier.

[MKL81]

I've started a new game recently, and xenon seems to hold better.

I think the most important thing that improves their survival is not having TRI in the game. Because TRI is peaceful, united and huge, so it annihilates Atiya's pretty much within first hours and from there things are only gonna get worse. As someone said "the best idea about paranid plot is to never do that plot". Xenon even tried to push into Getsu fune.

Then again, maybe I got a good seed.

Possibly seed-dependent, but I agree about Trinity. In previous games I united them to have someone bother Teladi a bit. However it always went badly for the Xenon. Since 8.0 I do not need to do it anymore, but rather have PAR, HOP, and VIG fight Teladi through diplomacy means. Surprisingly, the SPG Xenon pocket is holding itself surprisingly well, but not sure if this is latest patch result (started new game in 8.00 beta) or that I've added "Cheaper Xenon ships" after around 2 in-game days. About 4,5 days in now, and Xenon in SPG sectors look more capable than ever in any of my previous playthroughs.
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[vvvvvvvv]

After you have done some of the missions you get access to the Boron sectors

The game has "custom budgeted start" options which allows you to start with boron space accessible. If you've cleared the quest chain at least once.

[moako]

The PHQ is in Heretics End only if Boron DLC is present and enabled. If Boron space exists, then HE is not a complete dead end.

If I were "new and passive", then I would ignore the PHQ for a long time and roam elsewhere. Maybe.
(I was never new and I did ignore the PHQ a short while -- 600+ hours.)

Ah ok, I thought the station in Hatikvah is necessary to progress towards the PHQ - but then i am wrong.

For the missions specific stations are never necessary. If a stations get destroyed a new stations will be build especially if a station is necessary for missions.
But new player of course doesn't know that.

@ jlehtone
Heretics End isn't a dead end because of the access to Split and Paranid sectors but the customers and a big part of the missions are beyond the Hatikvah sectors.
Also the "Highway" goes through the Hatikvah sectors and the Highway is pretty important to speed up the game and makes the M-traders much more useful.

A lot of things are hidden behind the PHQ. Without the PHQ especially new player will have a more difficult start.