Xenon needs a upgrade.

[WoodyAut]

Hi,

The Xenon have a simple problem - when the stations "manager" becomes too experienced, especially the miners swarm out to mine in sectors more far away because of higher yields without regards on hostile sectors for them.
So at the beginning of the game everything is fine - the miners are going to use only nearby resources, but after a few ingame days, the miners are going more and more far away to do their job, getting killed, so...no resources anymore for the shipyards and wharfs anymore...plus all other consequences.

(Players station have a similar problem over time....but in this cases the miners only need longer time for delivery, but don't get killed)

Best regards
WoodyAut

[jlehtone]

Making them [Xenon] more difficult will disrupt playstyles other than fighting them

Indeed. Egosoft treads a tightrope with that one.

Maybe they really need a special sector with entry only through the anomaly and exit only. A script that causes them to have a permanent mining crew that sticks exclusively to that sector.

Fish in a barrel for the player to jump in with a shotgun. Nobody else gets into the barrel and nothing gets out from it. Always something to shoot at, safely. Like the Kha'ak hives; just shoot them and then SETA until they spawn back for next round?

Alas, that does not cover "the other playstyles".
Were are the war profits, if the other party of the war hides in a barrel?
Where is the "cunning plan" Admiral that thwarts Xenon assault with stratagem, when nobody assaults?

Assuming that Xenon can sail out from their barrel on their own, then how is that different from them simply spawning?
We do love the spawn of Kha'ak, SCA, and BUC so much.
(Some of us have that warm fuzzy feeling when the VIG state that they would like to rebuild a station. Not even a real "spawn".)

[vvvvvvvv]

Are they already dead,
Do player actions have an effect?
Can the NPC "win" without player?

In most scenarios in the current game xenon will lose all sectors except tharka to NPCs in 5-7 hours. Tharka will hold, but requires careful preservation. Specifically player should not destroy xenon stations inside, because Xenon might keel over and die. In few cases NPCs wipe out tharka too, all withuot player intervention. So instead of galactic threat Xenon become something like robotic space pandas.

This situation is the reason why people ask to buff them up and for ways to bring them back.

[Vuteq]

Were are the war profits, if the other party of the war hides in a barrel?
Where is the "cunning plan" Admiral that thwarts Xenon assault with stratagem, when nobody assaults?

Assuming that Xenon can sail out from their barrel on their own, then how is that different from them simply spawning?

The difference would be that you know where the attack is coming from; it doesn't spawn centrally on your head
So getting rid of them wouldn't be so easy if an anomaly (any one) takes you there randomly or to a different location. The only almost permanent solution would be to seal off the exit with a defense station. Perhaps a new quest line allowing the transport of a fleet of a certain size; even then, clearing such a sector could be a challenge. If the player truly wants to rid their universe of Xenons.

[jlehtone]

So instead of galactic threat Xenon become something like robotic space pandas.

This situation is the reason why people ask to buff them up and for ways to bring them back.

Indeed. Although, the Xenon do not need to get stronger. Just less able to die should suffice.

"Resurrection" would treat symptom, but would not prevent catching the illness to begin with. IMHO, being a button under player control would not make it better.

[alt3rn1ty]

In the 8.0 betas there is a new sector, which I dont think needs any DLCs (though I have all of them so not sure if this would appear without some of them). Its not the new one which will come with the Envoy DLC.
It starts with a Xenon Shipyard and Wharf, which will build on a new game start where there are Xenon SE to supply them.

If it is the case that this sector does not need any DLC, I think that is going to make a difference to Xenon proliferation. How much is yet to be seen, but its near central on the map.

In my game Teladi have already taken over the sector, and the Xenon stations keep trying to rebuild in different locations.
https://i.imgur.com/EC5k3R9.png
(I didn't give away any spoilers in the screenshot).

So this sector could tip the balance a bit, but imho my suggestion in the second post would be good for all players styles. A random Xenon supply ship spawned in after a while to attempt to rekindle the Xenon fire. Some would die, but occasionally a new bloom of Xenon fighting back into existance where there is a weakness on the map would be good.

[jlehtone]

The difference would be that you know where the attack is coming from; it doesn't spawn centrally on your head
So getting rid of them wouldn't be so easy if an anomaly (any one) takes you there randomly or to a different location. The only almost permanent solution would be to seal off the exit with a defense station.

Geopolitics. Our normal Xenon we can herd to the Moon, if we so desire. Dragging one-way Gate around to please our whims takes more development.

Perhaps a new quest line allowing the transport of a fleet of a certain size; even then, clearing such a sector could be a challenge.

We do have that already. Mass Teleportation.

Besides, clearing a sector is not a huge challenge. We have Admirals, who do ask: "How many sectors do you want before breakfast?"

[Staur106]

In my current game, the Xenon have been cleared out of the south completely by HoP and ANT. I helped clean out the northern ZYA sectors because they can't do that themselves, and I need ZYA to clear out the ARG on their own which they are finally doing. The TEL have cleared the Xenon out of the North East sectors and their own southern sectors like Turquoise sea are almost cleared out. Xenon do still have a pretty strong presence in Tharkas and Savage Sput, but ZYA captured control of the initial Tharkas sector without my help.

I think its only a matter of time until the Xenon are clapped back from those two areas as well.
-----

I think what I would like to see is some more inactive gates added to the game, and there is a couple of Xenon sectors clumped together with good resources internal to those sectors. From time to time the Xenon can choose to activate a gate and launch an invasion into the universe, TER/PIO territory included like Asteroid Belt and Oort Cloud, and then the gate closes. This kind of keeps the Xenon as an ever present threat, while allowing them a chance to hit important sectors, but never getting too rowdy from their protected space. Give them like 10 or 15 gates where they can appear, so it makes it very difficult to camp/stamp them out. The Xenon pockets in the current game stay as is, this is in addition to the Xenon we have now.

Perhaps make it also a toggle that the player can then adjust based on how much of a Xenon threat he wants.

Itresting idea i like it

[thedavid]

One problem with the Xenon is that they only use M size mining ships. Who hunts those? Kha'ak. NPC factions. The player. With the right kind of defense station near a gate utilizing the right kinds of turrets no Xenon mining ship will make it past. Once the Xenon can't send resources from one of their sectors to another they each have to fend for themselves.

Possible fixes:

1: Make gates that allow Xenon to travel to their different corners without passing through NPC space. Thus they would only go into Hatikvah with military ships, not their mining ships.

Downside to this is that once the Teladi take back Scale Plate Green they then have a road to take all Xenon sectors. Having the sectors separated means that each corner has to be approached independently and the Xenon can hold out.

2: Give the Xenon L size mining ships with as many defense turrets as an Branch I. That kind of ship would not care about Kha'ak and would wipe out any NPC that came to mess with it. The player would eventually be able to figure out a way to take it down if they have access to an Asgard but in the early game even the player would want to stay clear of that monster.

3: Give mining ships an escort. We all know that no M size mining ship is safe from Kha'ak. Even the L size mining ships need an escort otherwise kha'ak will just increase in numbers slowing down your mining ships and becoming numerous enough to threaten the other ships in the area. So Xenon need to give their mining ships proper escorts. Three PEs for one SE. Also, any L size mining ship, if the Xenon ever get them, need at least a Branch K for an escort. No one can tough the mining ship until that K is taken out.

4: Allow Xenon to have mining stations to stockpile resources. Not only that but if the Xenon happen to lose all of their mining ships, the mining station can use mining drones directly to draw in resources if they are close enough. If a separate mining station isn't allowed then let the Xenon wharf, which is responsible for building SEs in the first place, use mining drones to draw in resources and get SEs built.

5: Flickering Gates: The idea for this is that the gates are still a bit unstable. When the Xenon are on their last leg a gate temporarily opens and a flood of new Xenon come through. But it is temporary. The gate shuts down and then the NPC factions have to deal with the Xenon that came through.

Downsides to this. What if the player gets trapped on the wrong side of the gate during the shutdown. That would be bad. Solution: Like the one way highway in Savage Spur, there could be a one way gate. The story reason would be that it is so unstable that when going through the gate from this side only sends the player to one of the other gates already in the game but periodically the Xenon pour through it. This allows the player to continue to harvest Xenon drops and capture ships without the Xenon ever going away forever. Even without the one way gate idea, if the gate is open only temporarily then no NPC faction will know to gather enough resources to rush through the gate. It opens, Xenon come through. If the NPC factions send assets into that Xenon sector they will get cut off from reinforcements and likely not survive. The player then just has to know not to do that.

[thedavid]

Possible solution 6: A Xenon Virus.

Imagine this, you build a wharf and sometimes you also buy ships from the other wharves. Then for whatever reason a wharf builds a Xenon ship. Oh, no. The Xenon have hacked an NPC wharf and it is now producing Xenon ships until it runs out of resources.

Player gets a new mission to hunt down the Xenon hacker ship that is nearby.

Solutions 7: An NPC mining ship of whatever size is just mining and fending of Kha'ak from time to time. But then, the ship gets hacked by the Xenon. Life support shuts down and the crew have to bail. The ship, now under the control of the Xenon fly away abandoning them to the cold of space to deliver resources to the Xenon wharf.

[thedavid]

Solution 8, similar to a previous one. A one way Anomaly. There is some Xenon sector out there with massive resources and all kids of stations. Similar to Leap of Faith, it has an anomaly that is one way. Xenon ships from this sector can get out but once out they can never come back. The player can never make it to this sector, nor any NPC. Plus, when the Xenon leave, they never arrive in the game at a set place, but randomly arrive at any anomaly. Since every sector has at least one anomaly the Xenon could always be anywhere but spread out, not all clumped together. The player might not realize what is even going on, just that Xenon ships keep showing up even though the player thinks all the Xenon shipyards have been destroyed. The player won't know that the Xenon have a secret stronghold.

[vvvvvvvv]

One problem with the Xenon is that they only use M size mining ships. Who hunts those? Kha'ak. NPC factions. The player.

A very easy fix for that is making H able to mine. That's what deep space terraforming fleet spawn mod does.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/fil ... 3392664581

[Retrox]

The xenon need mining ships, that just mine close to the SY/wharf. What kills the xenon usually is that they lack ressources, because their miners fly through the space of other races and get destroyed. Also, there should be one mandatory energy station per SY sector with dedicated energy transporters (that are also limited to just that sector), that is not allowed to be demolished and will be rebuild, if destroyed by other means. An alternative to this would be putting a solar energy module every SY/wharf as a failsafe.
If you give the xenon unlimited ressources (e.g. by a refill script) they can content well against the races in most sectors.

[jlehtone]

1: Make gates that allow Xenon to travel to their different corners without passing through NPC space. Thus they would only go into Hatikvah with military ships, not their mining ships.

Downside to this is that once the Teladi take back Scale Plate Green they then have a road to take all Xenon sectors. Having the sectors separated means that each corner has to be approached independently and the Xenon can hold out.

I.e convert "flat Galaxy with edges" into more 3D map that "wraps around". (I can recall first Civilization, Ultima IV, etc, having maps, where stepping "over West edge" took you to the "East edge" -- there were no edges.)

That would change the Xenon space from the isolated "corners/pockets" into one larger cluster of sectors. One could even redraw the map to make it the "center" around which the other factions are.

As you said, if you or anyone steamrolls the one and only area that has Xenon, then they are done. again.

A minor benefit of multiple "pockets" -- each with Shipyards -- is that when their fleets get destroyed, they might rebuild in another pocket and thus seemingly buff that when they lose ground elsewhere. That concentration of forces is partly the reason why the last Xenon hideout lasts a bit longer.

Solution 8, similar to a previous one. A one way Anomaly. ... The player might not realize what is even going on, just that Xenon ships keep showing up even though the player thinks all the Xenon shipyards have been destroyed. The player won't know that the Xenon have a secret stronghold.

In other words, the Xenon will "spawn randomly", just like SCA and Kha'ak, and there there will be nothing that you can do about it. That seems undesirable.

[grapedog]

I like the "secret sector" options, and I think they are valid to keep the Xenon a threat... but that could also just get triggered by the "health" overall of the Xenon. Early game when Xenon are doing well, there is no sector spitting extra forces out at abandoned gates or through anomalys. When the Xenon are half health, maybe we start getting incursions, slowly at first.

As the Xenon are whittled down more and more, the incursions ramp up a little bit... and if all the Xenon pockets are cleared out, which doesn't take a long time anyhow currently... than perhaps like once every 12 hours we get a fleet of Xenon ships popping out randomly.

I like the idea of having to spend a bit more resources on keeping a kind of home defense force at each of my hubs in case Xenon pop up nearby. Right now I usually only keep a single destroyer to watch a hub of 5-9 stations.

[vvvvvvvv]

I like the "secret sector" options, and I think they are valid to keep the Xenon a threat... but that could also just get triggered by the "health" overall of the Xenon. Early game when Xenon are doing well, there is no sector spitting extra forces out at abandoned gates or through anomalys. When the Xenon are half health, maybe we start getting incursions, slowly at first.

I think secret sector approach could be made into a mini storyline. For example, there could be some massive "xenon core" station for which you have a choice. Deactivate, or keep it running. So if you shut it down, end of xenon. Well, at least if you wiped out all other xenon. And if you reactivate, they return. While active station generates "xenon starting pack" ships which allow them to rebuild. Few miners, Few energy haulers full of ecells.

Could work in reverse. I.e. if you killed all xenon, the station is dormant. But you can turn it on and they'll return. Or maybe it spawns a fleet every time you interact with it.

Lots of ways to go about it.

[grapedog]

I like the "secret sector" options, and I think they are valid to keep the Xenon a threat... but that could also just get triggered by the "health" overall of the Xenon. Early game when Xenon are doing well, there is no sector spitting extra forces out at abandoned gates or through anomalys. When the Xenon are half health, maybe we start getting incursions, slowly at first.

I think secret sector approach could be made into a mini storyline. For example, there could be some massive "xenon core" station for which you have a choice. Deactivate, or keep it running. So if you shut it down, end of xenon. Well, at least if you wiped out all other xenon. And if you reactivate, they return. While active station generates "xenon starting pack" ships which allow them to rebuild. Few miners, Few energy haulers full of ecells.

Could work in reverse. I.e. if you killed all xenon, the station is dormant. But you can turn it on and they'll return. Or maybe it spawns a fleet every time you interact with it.

Lots of ways to go about it.

Oh, the start pack is a nice option too. I like that!

[feaniris]

The xenon need mining ships, that just mine close to the SY/wharf. What kills the xenon usually is that they lack ressources, because their miners fly through the space of other races and get destroyed. Also, there should be one mandatory energy station per SY sector with dedicated energy transporters (that are also limited to just that sector), that is not allowed to be demolished and will be rebuild, if destroyed by other means. An alternative to this would be putting a solar energy module every SY/wharf as a failsafe.
If you give the xenon unlimited ressources (e.g. by a refill script) they can content well against the races in most sectors.

This.

[MKL81]

The xenon need mining ships, that just mine close to the SY/wharf. What kills the xenon usually is that they lack ressources, because their miners fly through the space of other races and get destroyed. Also, there should be one mandatory energy station per SY sector with dedicated energy transporters (that are also limited to just that sector), that is not allowed to be demolished and will be rebuild, if destroyed by other means. An alternative to this would be putting a solar energy module every SY/wharf as a failsafe.
If you give the xenon unlimited ressources (e.g. by a refill script) they can content well against the races in most sectors.

Definitely this as well as the question of their economy and station building. In theory everything should be going well, their economy is streamlined, they should be able to field enough ships to be more than a nuisance. However having very few stations works in their disfavor, every energy fab they lose is a huge setback. They should be inclined to build more stations, really. If not - other solution might be to have a core sector defense fleet much stronger than what they field currently. I saw numerous HOP fleets consisting of 8-12 destroyers, number of S/M and a supply ship entering Xenon territory and wiping Xenon out. If the first fleet did not finish the job - the second one few hours later would. Make this XEN fleet only patrol and respond in core sector for each Xenon pocket, this way it will only be harder to wipe them out, but will not impact power balance, where Xenon would become more of a threat to other factions all of the sudden.

[jlehtone]

Make this XEN fleet only patrol and respond in core sector for each Xenon pocket, this way it will only be harder to wipe them out, but will not impact power balance, where Xenon would become more of a threat to other factions all of the sudden.

Define "core sector". We can push factions around. Occasionally we want to do that. Relocate them.

Would wiping original core remove the core permanently, or could they turn an another sector of theirs into a core?