Looking for some strategies for dealing with "I's". My fleets not my own ship

[Brinnie]

The short version

As covered in the post title.

How do you guys set up your AIs fleets to cope with I's so they can deal with them without my intervention.




The longer version

The actual current scenario is:

My "Heavies" fleet is made up of 6 Syns, of which 2 all Plasma/ 2 all Beam/ 2 half and half. Currently divided into two separate fleets - 1 commander, 1 defender , 1 attacker each. While they are capable of disposing of a K (usually but not always) without a problem, they consistently get bashed by a single I.

It is not so much that they get destroyed, it is how it happens that leaves a lot to be desired. Usually they get too close on a side approach, one by one, getting vapourized by the abundant I Gravitons turrets battery. I have relatively little experience with fleet management in general and that is why I am asking for some guidance.

As it is now I engage Ks and Is myself by first taking out as many of their gravitons, if not all, and if necessary their engines too. I keep the above fleets close by and I order to attack the crippled enemy ships, close but not too close or else they go into the suicide run mentioned above, succeeding too when doing it to the Is.

I get good results this way but It doesn't seem the best use of resources (meaning the fleet) and it requires my presence in the engament. I am using the Syns rather than smaller crafts or even a fully loaded carrier, since I am relying on micromanaging the battle I find it more doable this way.
I hope some experienced commander can offer me some advice.

Cheers

[H34Dru5H]

Short answer: Carrier Bomber Wing.

I use 20 Nodan Sentinals, 10 armed with Ion Mk1s and 10 with Torpedo Launchers armed with Mk2 Heavy Torps all set to Bombard for Commander. They remain docked until called upon whereby they make light work of K's and I's. I seldom lose any but lose a few if I watch live stream or jump in one for a laugh, but when I do they are cheap to replace.

PS. I always rescue any lost captains too, get them into replacement bombers, never leave a man behind, Oorah!

[Raptor34]

Mass fighters.
And an Asgard though tbh I don't know how much that actually helps.

My gatecamp fleets generally has 60 attack fighters and 60 intercept fighters. Gladius with Proton Barrage for attack and Takobas with Pulse for intercept.

[jlehtone]

How do you guys set up your AIs fleets to cope with I's so they can deal with them without my intervention.

My current strategy is to do nothing. That works well with I that do not show up.

Overall, we do know that there are high and low attention and they are not identical. If you see what happens, then outcome changes. Therefore, fleet composition probably differs. The combat resolution has changed over the versions, so what I had back when the Xenon still had I is not likely to be "optimal" today. Can you stay out of it and let the AI do what AI does?

An another decision is whether you care. If you do care and thus don't like to lose ships, then you have to do more than if you do not care and simply tick the "rebuild" box that did show up in 7.50.


Ten torpedo bombers sounds right, at least for high attention. The first time I did test them in low attention (many versions ago), they did promptly burn all their missiles without any dent on K's shield. Perhaps they now would do something?

[Brinnie]

Short answer: Carrier Bomber Wing.

I use 20 Nodan Sentinals, 10 armed with Ion Mk1s and 10 with Torpedo Launchers armed with Mk2 Heavy Torps all set to Bombard for Commander. They remain docked until called upon whereby they make light work of K's and I's. I seldom lose any but loose a few if I watch live stream or jump in one for a laugh, but when I do they are cheap to replace.

PS. I always rescue any lost captains too, get them into replacement bombers, never leave a man behind, Oorah!

In countless hours spend playing X4 I don't believe I have ever fired a missile. People say "there is a first time for everything", maybe it applies here.

Yes absolutely, it is either rescue or reload, I can't carry their loss on my conscience. In X3 I used to collect bailed out enemy pilots and take them to their destination (not for the reward).

Mass fighters.
And an Asgard though tbh I don't know how much that actually helps.

My gatecamp fleets generally has 60 attack fighters and 60 intercept fighters. Gladius with Proton Barrage for attack and Takobas with Pulse for intercept.

I take it with carrier support?

The Asgard is already on my wishlist but it will have to wait for some more profits first, I stiil need to buy the blueprints for the ship/guns and for the XL fab.

So based on what you guys are saying, the smaller crafts don't fly to the enemy destroyers like flies to a turd.

ps. If you would use destroyers in your gatecamping fleet what orders would you set them to and what support would you offer them to make them more effective? I am assuming using destroyer for the purpose of engaging other destroyer is a valid plan.

ps. Are you running vanilla or using Kuertee's KUDA?

Edit***

@jlehtone

Your reply has arrived while I writing.

I think it sounds like an excellent idea, I mean if you have a problem and you can solve it by doing nothing then why sweat over it


Jokes apart, It is definetely worth a try. For one thing I am always in sector when it happens, usually in the Hyperion waiting to intervene if necessary.

It is only a problem though when I leave the PC alone to do other things and come back to find the onslaught. So your approach makes a lot of sense, I am going to try teleporting to another sector before leaving the fleet on their own and see what happens. If that works, it make for the best solution when I am AFK, for in sector I got to try the fighters approach as it should be more fun.
I hope my cpu can handle it.


ps. I read the 7.6 release notes mention improvements in capital ships combat.

[Raptor34]

Short answer: Carrier Bomber Wing.

I use 20 Nodan Sentinals, 10 armed with Ion Mk1s and 10 with Torpedo Launchers armed with Mk2 Heavy Torps all set to Bombard for Commander. They remain docked until called upon whereby they make light work of K's and I's. I seldom lose any but loose a few if I watch live stream or jump in one for a laugh, but when I do they are cheap to replace.

PS. I always rescue any lost captains too, get them into replacement bombers, never leave a man behind, Oorah!

In countless hours spend playing X4 I don't believe I have ever fired a missile. People say "there is a first time for everything", maybe it applies here.

Yes absolutely, it is either rescue or reload, I can't carry their loss on my conscience. In X3 I used to collect bailed out enemy pilots and take them to their destination (not for the reward).

Mass fighters.
And an Asgard though tbh I don't know how much that actually helps.

My gatecamp fleets generally has 60 attack fighters and 60 intercept fighters. Gladius with Proton Barrage for attack and Takobas with Pulse for intercept.

I take it with carrier support?

The Asgard is already on my wishlist but it will have to wait for some more profits first, I stiil need to buy the blueprints for the ship/guns and for the XL fab.

So based on what you guys are saying, the smaller crafts don't fly to the enemy destroyers like flies to a turd.

ps. If you would use destroyers in your gatecamping fleet what orders would you set them to and what support would you offer them to make them more effective? I am assuming using destroyer for the purpose of engaging other destroyer is a valid plan.

ps. Are you running vanilla or using Kuertee's KUDA?

Vanilla. And I have 3 Tokyos. Which is how I came to the number of fighters as I put 40 on each.
And it doesn't really matter once you hit critical mass of fighters, they'll dish out enough damage to strip subsystems fast enough anyway. Or at least that was the old theory, but I don't think anything has changed over the patches.

To round out I have 3 Osakas and 2 Syns. And an aux ship Honshu if that matters. All destroyers and Asgard set to attack with carrier flag.

[Brinnie]

Vanilla. And I have 3 Tokyos. Which is how I came to the number of fighters as I put 40 on each.
And it doesn't really matter once you hit critical mass of fighters, they'll dish out enough damage to strip subsystems fast enough anyway. Or at least that was the old theory, but I don't think anything has changed over the patches.

To round out I have 3 Osakas and 2 Syns. And an aux ship Honshu if that matters. All destroyers and Asgard set to attack with carrier flag.

I was late again, I am too slow at posting.

Thanks for the info

[GCU Grey Area]

Tend to use mixed fleets myself, with a carrier as fleet command using the Protect Position behaviour.

Destroyers are my primary source of anti-capital firepower (bombardment role), supported by the carrier's fighters & frigates. Generally around 1/3 of the fighters are heavies & are also assigned to bombardment. These fighters are intended to distract, harass & delay the approach of enemy capitals, in part by preventing travel drive activation. Remaining 2/3 are faster, more agile fighters, assigned to intercept & are intended to protect the heavies from enemy S/M ships.

These days I also include frigates in my carrier-based forces, also assigned to intercept. In addition to their other weapons & turrets each frigate is fitted with a single missile launcher, usually loaded with Light Smart. Found during the battle at the end of the ToA plot that being able to maintain a continuous barrage of flare-proof, auto-retargeting missiles significantly reduced fighter losses, so have included missile frigates in all of my fleets since then.

Tend to avoid torpedoes myself for anything except personal use. Find the logistics of maintaining a supply of torpedo components on a carrier to be troublesome (parts for each new torpedo occupy a significant amount of cargo space, meaning carriers need to be resupplied frequently), whereas doing the same for lower calibre missiles (such as Light Smart) is much less hassle.

[Raptor34]

These days I also include frigates in my carrier-based forces, also assigned to intercept. In addition to their other weapons & turrets each frigate is fitted with a single missile launcher, usually loaded with Light Smart. Found during the battle at the end of the ToA plot that being able to maintain a continuous barrage of flare-proof, auto-retargeting missiles significantly reduced fighter losses, so have included missile frigates in all of my fleets since then.

Frigates because of capacity I presume? Otherwise it seems like gunships would work better.

[GCU Grey Area]

Frigates because of capacity I presume? Otherwise it seems like gunships would work better.

Exactly - less time spent flying back to the carrier to reload missiles.

[Raptor34]

Frigates because of capacity I presume? Otherwise it seems like gunships would work better.

Exactly - less time spent flying back to the carrier to reload missiles.

I suppose the turrets are irrelevant, but what do you put as their guns? I remember there used to be issues where certain gun types give them stupider approaches considering they run missiles and how you should run MDs so they keep range, but I didn't keep up to date on that.

[jlehtone]

These days I also include frigates in my carrier-based forces, also assigned to intercept. In addition to their other weapons & turrets each frigate is fitted with a single missile launcher, usually loaded with Light Smart.

I did start an experiment along those lines. Condor. Four Phoenix on Attack role, and one Stork. Each Phoenix has four Osprey on Defend. Each Osprey has one Tracking Launcher and one gun. Most of the Ospreys have three fighters (Falcon/Buzzard) with various loadouts on Attack role. This fleet have fared ok in low attention, but has not faced any K/I yet, nor probably will.

[GCU Grey Area]

I suppose the turrets are irrelevant, but what do you put as their guns? I remember there used to be issues where certain gun types give them stupider approaches considering they run missiles and how you should run MDs so they keep range, but I didn't keep up to date on that.

Turrets are still relevant, sometimes my frigates are attacked by enemy S/M ships. Current game is Paranid (Uncocooned start) so those frigates are Gorgon Vanguards & apart from their missile launcher, second gun & all 4 turrets are beams (latter set to 'shoot missiles first'). Have not noticed any particular issues regarding missile usage as a consequence of this loadout.

I did start an experiment along those lines. Condor. Four Phoenix on Attack role, and one Stork. Each Phoenix has four Osprey on Defend. Each Osprey has one Tracking Launcher and one gun. Most of the Ospreys have three fighters (Falcon/Buzzard) with various loadouts on Attack role. This fleet have fared ok in low attention, but has not faced any K/I yet, nor probably will.

Interesting approach, although I prefer a more straightforward command structure in which almost all ships in the fleet are direct subordinates of the fleet's command carrier. In particular I do like to be able to lock down fighters while the fleet's in transit through friendly territory (so they don't go haring off after every random pirate, kha'ak, etc, that just happens to pass within the carrier's radar range). More convenient to do that by going down the carrier's subordinate controls & clicking on 'docked' for each group than to have to do the same with multiple command ships. Likewise for activating fighters when the fleet's arrived in hostile territory. Would acknowledge though that there are distinct advantages to more complex command structures.

[vvvvvvvv]

My "Heavies" fleet is made up of 6 Syns, of which 2 all Plasma/ 2 all Beam/ 2 half and half. Currently divided into two separate fleets - 1 commander, 1 defender , 1 attacker each. While they are capable of disposing of a K (usually but not always) without a problem, they consistently get bashed by a single I.

I believe the idea would be to set those syns to bombard. You can also upgrade those plasma turrets with slasher. And check which plasma you have installed. Paranid plasma has longest range. You can also add more Syns.

[LameFox]

My current gate fleet has 6 Syns on Bombard, but with the other 5 doing 'attack for' on the lead ship so they all choose the same target. Then 20 Kalis with mesons also on bombard because these react faster, and also frankly to distract the turrets. It does take some losses (more in high attention than low) but they're always the S ships. I don't think it's actually lost a destroyer in the whole fairly long time it's been holding the hatikvah's gate.

Whenever I get around to setting up non Terran production, or even just get missile supplies ready in the area, I'll probably switch the bombers to a weapon with AOE effects.

[vvvvvvvv]

Then 20 Kalis with mesons also on bombard because these react faster, and also

Also it is possible to assign those Kalis to a Guppy and set Guppy to bombard, with Kalis to attack. Guppy will repair Kalis so there will be fewer losses. The only issue is that with 20 Kalis you'd need either fewer Kalis, or 2 Guppies.

[LameFox]

Then 20 Kalis with mesons also on bombard because these react faster, and also

Also it is possible to assign those Kalis to a Guppy and set Guppy to bombard, with Kalis to attack. Guppy will repair Kalis so there will be fewer losses. The only issue is that with 20 Kalis you'd need either fewer Kalis, or 2 Guppies.

To be clear these launch from an XL carrier which I use as the base of the fleet (and holder of loot). It's just that the rest of its fighters are on intercept and don't get involved with capitals. The losses aren't due to a lack of repairs, but because they die outright. This is also why it's more prevalent in high attention: gravitons are a lot more forgiving when the player isn't around.

[Brinnie]

Wow! A lot of food for thought here, I will try to make good use of this info.

I believe the idea would be to set those syns to bombard. You can also upgrade those plasma turrets with slasher. And check which plasma you have installed. Paranid plasma has longest range. You can also add more Syns.

I did wonder what bombard was for.
Yes, I have slashers installed and I hope to have chosen the best turrets by race:

Paranid Plasma
Terran Beam
Argon Pulse (for the M turrets)

How do you guys set up your AIs fleets to cope with I's so they can deal with them without my intervention.

My current strategy is to do nothing. That works well with I that do not show up.

Overall, we do know that there are high and low attention and they are not identical. If you see what happens, ...

As it turns out your advice is really made for my current situation. My bad again for not considering the difference between IS and OS (or high and low attention).
Since I teleported out of sector the outcome of the battles that took place changed entirely. Looking at the action from the map screen the Syns engaged the enemy destroyers (Ks and even Is) in a far more effective way, seemingly making good use of numerical advantage while not making any suicidal maneuvers.

Ironically when going AFK I had stayed in sector to help out the fleet in case of the arrivals of Xenons destroyers.

[jlehtone]

Since I teleported out of sector the outcome of the battles that took place changed entirely. Looking at the action from the map screen the Syns engaged the enemy destroyers (Ks and even Is) in a far more effective way, seemingly making good use of numerical advantage while not making any suicidal maneuvers.

That is the difference in "terrain". Unfortunate that it does exists, but only a fool would not take advantage of the terrrain. Not sure whether it was Sun Tzu or Mr. T who said that.

[Brinnie]

That is the difference in "terrain". Unfortunate that it does exists, but only a fool would not take advantage of the terrrain. Not sure whether it was Sun Tzu or Mr. T who said that.

Not that it matters but I reckon, out of the two, it wasn't Mr. T.

Or at least he didn't say it like that