Israel War

[fiksal]

Don't conflate protesting Israel's war crimes with anti-Semitism. Just don't do that. Crimes against Jewish people are not ok, but boycotting a hypothetical business that supports Israel's war crimes is definitely a valid form of protest: protesting with our wallets.

that's an interesting thought. How does one do that without standing right next to anti-Semitics.

Same for these demonstrations for free Palestine, it's not like many are holding signs to free hostages and capture Hamas the same time. None that I briefly saw perhaps?

[Falcrack]

You can't defend Israel's war crimes just like a Russian couldn't defend Russia's war crimes. Israel doesn't have the moral high ground, just like Russia. Bombing refugee camps... only a psychopath would find that necessary or justifiable. You're defending the indefensible.

Israel does indeed have a higher moral ground than Russia, since Russia's invasion of Ukraine was not preceeded by Ukraine killing thousands of Russians and taking hundreds hostage. And no, the hostilities between 2014 and 2022 don't count, because that was also instigated by Russia, and was just Ukraine defending itself.

As to bombing refugees camps, if Hamas fighters are taking refuge in refugee camps and using them as a base of operations, then there can be some justification for bombing them.

But I do think that Israel is unwise to pursue a course of revenge, and that this will turn out very badly for them. Imagine if instead of immediately taking revenge, Israel had instead mourned the loss of their citizens and not struck back? World sympathy would be on the side of Israel. Now, they are quickly losing friends and making stronger enemies.

[fiksal]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... jects-deal

Hamas official says ‘no chance’ hostages will return to Israel after Netanyahu rejects deal
The prime minister said he rejected the terms of a deal which included Israel’s complete withdrawal from Gaza

A Hamas official, Sami Abu Zuhri, told Reuters the Israeli prime minister’s refusal to end the military offensive in Gaza “means there is no chance for the return of the [Israeli] captives”, which are estimated to be 130 in number.

Netanyahu is facing mounting pressure to secure the release the hostages, but said in a statement that the Hamas demands included “the withdrawal of our forces from Gaza, the release of all the murderers and rapists … and leaving Hamas intact.”

Some deal that is.

[mr.WHO]

Interesting move on US side:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68173904

This, plus recent info that Kuwait delivered a lot of ex-Soviet design tanks for Ukraine make me think "the big flip" is more and more possible - Israel fliping to pro-Russian camp and Arabs fliping to pro-US camp.

[fiksal]

That will leave Iran and Hamas pretty sad

[felter]

I have pretty much kept out of this conversation I have to say that what has been happening on both sides of this conflict is pretty atrocious, both sides have been doing things that no leaders of any country should be doing, and I do believe Israel are attempting to wipe out all the Palestinians young old male or female doesn't matter they intend to murder them all. So it comes as no surprise that today the ICC have made it clear they are intending on issuing arrest warrants for both the leaders of Hamas and Israel.

As you can imagine, Israel are not happy about this outcome, but they have gone from being the persecuted to the persecutors the one thing they learned from the Nazi's was how to kill en masse, and in my view that is exactly what they have been doing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not just picking on them, Hamas are as much to blame as the Israel leaders, but Israel should know better because of their population's past history.

It's a sad state of affairs that should never have been allowed to happen.

[Falcrack]

Israel walked right into Hamas' trap. They have reacted exactly as Hamas wanted them to, with predictable consequences in terms of loss of international support for Israel.

Had Israel taken the counterintuitive step of not seeking to retaliate and take revenge for the October 7th attacks by Hamas, their security situation would be far better today. They would have international sympathy instead of condemnation. Hamas would look like the bad guys they are, and sympathy for them would be at an all time low. They might have even gotten the hostages back, some of them not in bodybags.

There is no solution to the Israeli and Palestinian crisis that does not involve a measure of ability to forgive that I feel neither side currently possesses. Netanyahu is certainly not the type to offer forgiveness.

While there is not currently a truly existential threat to the survival of Israel now, that could change in the coming years as a result of this. Israel cannot afford to alienate its international supporters. They are simply too small and few in number to stand alone.

[mr.WHO]

What, if ICC does have a point and all it takes to stop this madness, is to arrest both Hamas and Israeli leaders?

It would for sure not hurt to try.

Neither did anything to deascalate despite plenty of time and opportunities.

They could also pick Putin on their trip to Hague.

Iranians could provide helicopter service for everyone.

[fiksal]

Perhaps. Who I wonder will do these arrests.

Newly recognized Palestine won't and neither will Israel.

[felter]

While their home countries may not arrest them, once an arrest warrant has been issued, they have to watch where they go as they run the risk of being arrested, Putin is a fine example of that as he has an arrest warrant on his head once it was issued he has cancelled foreign trips as he is scared that he will be arrested while on those trips as a lot of counties are obliged to do so. So while they may feel safe at home, there is always that risk of arrest when travelling outside of their homeland, but then if something does happen in their homeland like a change of regime, there is always a chance that an arrest may occur. So they have to spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder.

[notaterran]

I can imagine that most Israelis approve of what's happening with Palestinians because the Old Testament condones genocide. This is from Samuel 15:

Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’

A God of Wrath if there ever was one

[chew-ie]

Even the donkies...

[notaterran]

Hamas’ top political leader was killed Wednesday by a predawn airstrike in the Iranian capital, Iran and the militant group said, blaming Israel for a shock assassination that risked escalating into an all-out regional war.

Link

Sensationalism aside (we've been hearing about "all-out war" for a while now) you have to see Israel's hypocrisy. It's always a bigger tragedy when civilians die but, Hezbollah did what Israel has been doing for months (unless you think that bombing civilians in refugee camps is ok) and now Israel is like "hey don't do that". I'm sure that there are Israelis who don't subscribe to the barbaric teachings of the Old Testament (see my quote above) and hopefully there will be a political change in Israel to put an end to this massacre. The Israelis went from victims to perpetrators in record time.

Human nature can be bad enough, we don't need the poison of religion making it worse.

[mr.WHO]

Probably it's time to change the topic name to "Middle East War".

Erdogan said that after Lebanon and Iran, Israel will target Turkey.
Since Turkey is in NATO that would be bizzare, but last few years are more and more crazy.



...oh and aparently there is entire UN peakeeper contingent caught between Lebanon and Israel crossfire.

[felter]

Seemingly, Iran has launched missiles at Israel with air raid siren blasting all over Israel, probably in retaliation of Israel's ground assault into Lebanon, things are still a little bit sketchy right now, so no links.

[clakclak]

Probably it's time to change the topic name to "Middle East War".

Erdogan said that after Lebanon and Iran, Israel will target Turkey.
Since Turkey is in NATO that would be bizzare, but last few years are more and more crazy.



...oh and aparently there is entire UN peakeeper contingent caught between Lebanon and Israel crossfire.

Nah that is just pandering to his base. The typical AKP voter will lap up anything as long as [insert opposition group of the day] (no matter if made up or actual opposition) is marked as a threat that will break against the staunch walls of Turkish resilience. Before long he will be back to his usual program of feuding with Greece, German comedians and whoever dislikes him in his own country. He will throw in a jab towards Israel every now and then, but I think that will be it.

As for the UN peacekeepers, I am curious how that is going to play out. I'd assume they will simply move out of the way? That being said it is a seizable force at 10.000 and their mendate is a robust one (robust in the legal sense). It is a shame really, Lebanon could be a great country, but the ethnic/religious conflicts keep up tearing it to shredds. I know a lot of people with family in the country (mostly in the non Hezbollah controlled regions), while the think the violence will remain somewhat contained in the South they are obviously worried.

[EGO_Aut]

.......".

...oh and aparently there is entire UN peakeeper contingent caught between Lebanon and Israel crossfire.

2006 Israel did bombard a UN base, at least one blue helmet was killed.
Lets call it collateral damage, this happens when you preventive invade your neighbours. No they are no RU, dont blame them.

[notaterran]

Probably it's time to change the topic name to "Middle East War".

It's still contained. So far it's mostly Israel bombing and invading other territories, with the somewhat muted response here and there. If Iran really wanted to attack they wouldn't just launch such a pedestrian attack. I wonder if this Netanyahu character is trying to force the U.S. into war with Iran.

[mr.WHO]

It's still contained. So far it's mostly Israel bombing and invading other territories, with the somewhat muted response here and there. If Iran really wanted to attack they wouldn't just launch such a pedestrian attack. I wonder if this Netanyahu character is trying to force the U.S. into war with Iran.

It's not off the hook yet - Israel already commented that they are preparing the retaliation - I don't think Netanyahu will let Iran launch two mass missile strikes unpunished.

[notaterran]

Iran cannot realistically go to war with Israel (and by extension the U.S.) and expect to win. Even if Israel bombs a few Iranian bases it's doubtful that Iran will do much more than symbolic attacks. Iran's leader seems old and frail, there's no way that he has what it takes to lead Iran through all-out war.