There is no diplomacy? We have a New Endgame Crises but no diplomacy??? :Poll

[alexthespaniard]

respond adequately

As in: not at all

Can you explain more extensively what you meant?
At its current state the diplomacy feels good. If you read carefully in in-game "Factions and relations" tab what each diplomacy threshold unlocks (-30, -20, -10,0,10,20,30) and to this the fact that each faction has its own list of allies and enemies and player can change that list in a limited way via doing plots and tasks, all this as a whole forms a robust diplomacy system which is very suitable for this type of game. Some people could advocate for dynamic diplomacy as it was in X3.Farnham's Legacy, but speaking truthfully, it is very annoying.

You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

[Nanook]

...
You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

First of all, it's not, and never has been, a 4X game. Master of Orion is a 4X game; Space Empires is a 4X game. None of the X-Universe games are 4X games.
Second, your "community" is a very tiny subset of the total gamers playing X4, so I doubt the devs are going to base their decisions on those few gamers.

So, not really all that compelling, is it?

[Hector0x]

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization, which involves reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables or enough evidence. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding a statistical survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.

TLDR: this poll doesn't represent "the community". People who would vote "No" don't even come here

[PersonyPerson]

...
You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

First of all, it's not, and never has been, a 4X game. Master of Orion is a 4X game; Space Empires is a 4X game. None of the X-Universe games are 4X games.
Second, your "community" is a very tiny subset of the total gamers playing X4, so I doubt the devs are going to base their decisions on those few gamers.

So, not really all that compelling, is it?

X4 might not be a 4X game per se (because it takes from so many different genres it's hard to properly classify). But as someone who's played a lot of 4X/Grand Strategy/RTS games, it does share some elements of one, especially when you're in the late game and conducting most of your orders via the map screen. If the player decides to go out and conquer the gate network for themselves, the game plays out as something akin to Sins of a Solar Empire, a 4X RTS.

Also, in the Timelines FAQ the devs acknowledged the rise of "4X players discovering X4" and used that as a reason for improving AI and fleet mechanics for versions 7.50 and 8.00.

However saying all that, I do agree with the premise of your point in that one poll on the forums is not representative of what the community wants. I didn't vote in the poll because, to me the poll is flawed (not a fan of yes/no polls for complex issues since 2016). Those in the "74%" have clearly shown on this thread that their ideas are vastly different from each other to the point in where they are mutually exclusive. If I'd have voted, I would have voted "Yes", but I don't want what the OP is suggesting. My ideas I listed on Pg.3 for example are not compatible with theirs.

Diplomacy should be expanded through the existing plot system and make certain criteria for coalitions and ceasefires to form in the face of very powerful opponents (player included). A full dynamic system would be a disaster.

Also those who are either not interested in diplomacy or don't care either way are going to be less likely to participate in this discussion or even click on the thread, so naturally the vote is going to be skewed towards "Yes".

[taztaz502]

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You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

First of all, it's not, and never has been, a 4X game. Master of Orion is a 4X game; Space Empires is a 4X game. None of the X-Universe games are 4X games.
Second, your "community" is a very tiny subset of the total gamers playing X4, so I doubt the devs are going to base their decisions on those few gamers.

So, not really all that compelling, is it?

This the same community that thought timelines was going to be a good idea?

Egosoft needs to start listening to the majority not the minority.

Freedom of choice is exactly why mods like litcubes universe for X3 were massively popular.

[alexthespaniard]

...
You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

First of all, it's not, and never has been, a 4X game. Master of Orion is a 4X game; Space Empires is a 4X game. None of the X-Universe games are 4X games.
Second, your "community" is a very tiny subset of the total gamers playing X4, so I doubt the devs are going to base their decisions on those few gamers.

So, not really all that compelling, is it?

This the same community that thought timelines was going to be a good idea?

Egosoft needs to start listening to the majority not the minority.

Freedom of choice is exactly why mods like litcubes universe for X3 were massively popular.

So now it turns out that the forum is useless? That the votes of those who are more involved in the game don't count? That the idea of explaining the x4 world more and better wasn't a bad one?

I see that it's fashionable to disregard differing opinions. From my point of view, adding lore and explaining the X world is not a bad idea soon or latter had to come. In my opinion, the ships are good, the story is fine, but I don't know if they have simplified it enough in a way that the player understood the DLC. As I said before the game's release, the key will be in how they integrate these stories with the gameplay.

I suppose they will continue working on it and gradually improve all aspects of the game and DLC. But explaining and understanding the roots of X4 at its peak of popularity, I believe, was an obligation.

The more immersion in empire management, politics, fleet management, mining... the more types of players you will attract. I don't understand why providing more immersion and improvement sounds so bad to some.

They have the opportunity to take advantage of and continue improving this tool they have given us. I believe it will add a lot of gameplay.

There isn't just one type of player, there are many. According to surveys, many find it difficult to enjoy the 'late game' due to the passivity of the AI towards the player and optimization issues. I don't think Egosoft is wrong in reading the community or trying to understand it. The more they do this, the more accurate their steps will be. What isn't measured isn't improved.

I come from the world of video games That I stayed 4 years. Now I am in a fashion company that I co-founded, with over 2000 multi-brand stores (which I personally managed until 1 years ago & in a period of 6 years), more than 100 own stores selling in more than 38 countries. I constantly work with marketing companies (the best in the world) and I am personally now on the Retail team where we work directly and indirectly with the customer. Thats my experience with clients & sales That doesn’t mean I’m 100% right, but I do have some experience that might be useful. I’m passionate about this game, which is why I like sharing my opinion, and fortunately, this company is receptive. Whether people or Egosoft agree or not, I think it's great. I'm just sharing my opinion and contributing my small part.

Also, as you pointed out, it's important to select the information you collect carefully. Considering how to gather the information might indeed be a good idea. But understanding your customer and their motivations is gold, just as having your own personality and surprising them is important.

Extremely important, and forums are one of the tools you can use. Of course, they can be improved, but I don't think it's appropriate to disregard them just because they don't always agree with you.

[CBJ]

Nobody is "disregarding" the forum. You tried to claim that...

...you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect...

...and people were simply pointing out the flaw in your argument.

You also made statements like...

Providing a diplomatic system is not only necessary but mandatory.

...while at the same time complaining...

I see that it's fashionable to disregard differing opinions.

Both of these demonstrate the same point: you need to extend the same courtesy to others that you demand of them.

[hebrux]

This game does not need diplomacy as it described in the thread. It is a space sandbox simulator not a paradox-style game. Also players probably forget that by their own actions they change diplomatic landscape through peaceful trading with other factions or destroying their stations and capturing sectors thereby provoking other factions to respond adequately.

The term "4X" originates from a 1993 preview of Master of Orion in Computer Gaming World by game writer Alan Emrich where he rated the game "XXXX" as a pun on the XXX rating for p*rn*graphy. The four Xs were an abbreviation for "EXplore, EXpand, EXploit and EXterminate".
**The four Xs were an abbreviation for "EXplore, EXpand, EXploit and EXterminate"**
--Wikepedia

In x4 you can EXplore. You can explore the galaxy. Discovering mysteries and hidden objects
In x4 you can EXpand. Building Starbases, Stations, and ships.
In x4 you can EXploit . Mining Ores for resources and transform them into refined goods.
In x4 you can EXterminate. Fight the Xenon, Fight other factions. Fight pirates.

X4 is a 4x game.
Name one 4x game that doesn't have at least basic diplomacy.
Only one I can think of is X4: Foundations

[hebrux]

Diplomacy would be nice, but I think everyone is over-amping this. There's no need to go full hog and I think reputation largely already covers this. If you want an empire management game, you can try Stellaris.

Me personally? I would just like to be able to have more realistic interactions with NPCs. I'd like to be able to wander about my ship fixing things or talking to crew.

Would I like to be able to negotiate trade deals and military alliances/contracts, this would be nice sure. Lets start small, egosoft are much more likely to implement small scale stuff that's popular than a wholesale format change.

I agree with the starting small. That's why I advocate for a basic diplomacy system to start things off in my original post.
We don't need to turn this game into stellaris.
X4 should be X4. But if this game allows us to roleplay as a faction (empire mode), we should be able to interact with the other factions AS A FACTION. NOT AS A PILOT

[hebrux]

Nobody is "disregarding" the forum. You tried to claim that...

...you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect...

...and people were simply pointing out the flaw in your argument.

You also made statements like...

Providing a diplomatic system is not only necessary but mandatory.

...while at the same time complaining...

I see that it's fashionable to disregard differing opinions.

Both of these demonstrate the same point: you need to extend the same courtesy to others that you demand of them.

I'm glad this topic is getting some attention. It's easy to see that the X4 community has a lot to say about the topic of adding (at-least) basic diplomacy to the X4 empire roleplaying mode

[Nanook]

...
In x4 you can EXterminate. Fight the Xenon, Fight other factions. Fight pirates...

Fight does not equal exterminate. In true 4X games, the main goal of the game is to conquer, and maybe exterminate, all of your opponents. That simply is not what X4 is about, although some players may like to do that. The player is not a political entity, and hence there's no need for diplomacy as practiced in true 4X games. Since there is no set endgame in the X games, it's up to the player to decide what constitutes the end of the game. X4 is a simulation, not a conquer the universe game.

[hebrux]

...
You can ignore the matter if you want, but it's a 4X game, and you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect. I think that's very compelling the community is very clear.

First of all, it's not, and never has been, a 4X game. Master of Orion is a 4X game; Space Empires is a 4X game. None of the X-Universe games are 4X games.
Second, your "community" is a very tiny subset of the total gamers playing X4, so I doubt the devs are going to base their decisions on those few gamers.

X4: Foundations may not fit the traditional mold of a 4X game, but it certainly incorporates many elements of the genre.

1. Exploration:
In X4: Foundations, you can explore a vast, open universe. Starting with a single ship and can discover new sectors, stations, and resources.

2. Expansion:
You can build and expand your own space stations and fleets. As you progress, you can take control of more sectors and establish a larger presence in the universe. You can even do this from the map interface like in a more tradition real-time or turn-based strategy game.

3. Exploitation:
The game features allows players and player owned asses to mine resources, trade goods, and manage production chains, exploiting the universe’s resources.

4. Extermination:
Combat is a significant part of the game. We can engage in battles with other factions, pirates, and enemies to protect our assets and expand your influence.

[hebrux]

...
In x4 you can EXterminate. Fight the Xenon, Fight other factions. Fight pirates...

Fight does not equal exterminate.

Thank you for replying. I still think the "Exterminate" in 4X is meant as fight. This is taken from wikipedia (which I understand isn't a primary source of info but a good start)
"EXterminate means attacking and eliminating rival players. Since in some games all territory is eventually claimed, eliminating a rival's presence may be the only way to achieve further expansion."

In true 4X games, the main goal of the game is to conquer, and maybe exterminate, all of your opponents. That simply is not what X4 is about, although some players may like to do that. The player is not a political entity, and hence there's no need for diplomacy as practiced in true 4X games. Since there is no set endgame in the X games, it's up to the player to decide what constitutes the end of the game. X4 is a simulation, not a conquer the universe game.

This is true, there is no endgame in X4. This is what makes it a sandbox and why so many of us enjoy just being traders or pirates or miners.

Personally, I enjoy starting off as a miner, then slowly building up my mining empire by selling ores until I have enough for 2 ships, then 3 and so on until I have my own production line with dozens of stations.
After I've secured my production lines by having a hand in everything that's made in the galaxy, I build a shipyard and start to create my own ships.
By this time I own atleast 3 sectors, have atleast 2 dozen battleships, and atleast a couple hundred small and medium combat ships. I consider myself a Minor faction.
On the player information screen, there's an option that allows me to set my faction name. I choose Tempest as my faction name.

I own territories, contribute to the global economy, and own warships. I'm a minor faction in all but code.
If X4 is a sandbox, and the developers have allowed players to roleplay as a faction; building ships, stations, and production lines, why can't players interact with the other factions as equals? Why must the other factions see me as just a pilot even though I could potentially be more powerful than they are and hold more territories and assets?

Thank you.

[Nanook]

...
4. Extermination:
Combat is a significant part of the game. We can engage in battles with other factions, pirates, and enemies to protect our assets and expand your influence.

I guess your definition of 'exterminate' and mine are a bit different.

And lot's of different games incorporate elements from other genres of games. Does that mean they're all the same? Fallout 4 has some of those elements, too. Does that mean it's a 4X game, too?

[PersonyPerson]

The more immersion in empire management, politics, fleet management, mining... the more types of players you will attract. I don't understand why providing more immersion and improvement sounds so bad to some.

To me, more diplomacy offered in the traditional sense will make the game less immersive, not more. Why should TEL suddenly declare war on PAR, when no backstory has been made for such a conflict to take place? Why should ARG and HOP suddenly enter into an alliance with each other 10 days into the game? What would be the point of the plots if the diplomatic changes that result from them were to be reversed at random 2 days later?

Dynamic diplomacy makes conflicts between factions meaningless. It's not realistic. It'll be dictated by code and not by logic, lore and history. Such a mechanic would be good for a mod if players have no interest at all in the lore and want a chaotic universe in where nothing matters, where relations between factions are intended to not make any rational sense from the start. But not for vanilla.

[alexthespaniard]

The more immersion in empire management, politics, fleet management, mining... the more types of players you will attract. I don't understand why providing more immersion and improvement sounds so bad to some.

To me, more diplomacy offered in the traditional sense will make the game less immersive, not more. Why should TEL suddenly declare war on PAR, when no backstory has been made for such a conflict to take place? Why should ARG and HOP suddenly enter into an alliance with each other 10 days into the game? What would be the point of the plots if the diplomatic changes that result from them were to be reversed at random 2 days later?

Dynamic diplomacy makes conflicts between factions meaningless. It's not realistic. It'll be dictated by code and not by logic, lore and history. Such a mechanic would be good for a mod if players have no interest at all in the lore and want a chaotic universe in where nothing matters, where relations between factions are intended to not make any rational sense from the start. But not for vanilla.

If you read my previous comment, you’ll see that I mentioned it cannot be an anarchic diplomacy that goes against the 'Plot.' However, I would understand if some of these factions, for example, were in dire straits with the Xenon and tried to seek a truce with a rival faction. In my opinion, diplomacy should be directed at the player. Among themselves, a truce system based on objectives and losses would be ideal. But as I said, this is just my opinion. On the other hand, we understand that the Paranid, Teladi, and Argon would never declare war on each other, but depending on the context, they might with the Matriarchy or other factions. I think this would also be a way to bring back other factions.

So far, I haven't seen anyone asking for a battle royale, but rather for more depth, more reaction to the player, and more dynamism in the form of events in the universe.

[alexthespaniard]

Nobody is "disregarding" the forum. You tried to claim that...

...you have 74% + 9% of the community desiring a deeper focus on this aspect...

...and people were simply pointing out the flaw in your argument.

You also made statements like...

Providing a diplomatic system is not only necessary but mandatory.

...while at the same time complaining...

I see that it's fashionable to disregard differing opinions.

Both of these demonstrate the same point: you need to extend the same courtesy to others that you demand of them.

"Providing a diplomatic system is not only necessary but mandatory."

the fact is that in the past they improoved. Perhaps I have sounded a bit categorical, but from the beginning, I have made it clear that this is simply my opinion.

Soon this survey will reach 150 votes. They have approximately 2000 players a day in the last 28 days. That is 7,5% of their daily players. Additionally, (although not all) they are probably the most dedicated players and likely have the most hours played on average. And it will probably end with 200-250 (12-14%)votes from people who, I doubt, want to vote just to be ignored. Rather, they want to collaborate.
And I say this because of the phrase 'they are the same ones who voted for the Timelines DLC'.

[jlehtone]

...
In x4 you can EXterminate. Fight the Xenon, Fight other factions. Fight pirates...

Fight does not equal exterminate.

Thank you for replying. I still think the "Exterminate" in 4X is meant as fight. This is taken from wikipedia (which I understand isn't a primary source of info but a good start)
"EXterminate means attacking and eliminating rival players. Since in some games all territory is eventually claimed, eliminating a rival's presence may be the only way to achieve further expansion."

I don't play 4X, but I got impression that if the player does not optimize expansion, then other factions will out-expand and exterminate the player. In X4 no (NPC) faction shows attempt to systematically exterminate others, and there are no limits on our expansion.

Piloting small ship in combat is primarily a first-person-shooter, isn't it?


You want to be treated like a faction? How are factions treated in X4 now?
* Fixed relationships with other factions
* Strict limits on how many ships and stations they can have
* No building "far out". At most to next door of your existing sectors
* At any moment a "player" -- not you -- can instantly replace or assimilate your faction with some other faction in "epic" story

it will probably end with 200-250 (12-14%)votes from people who, I doubt, want to vote just to be ignored. Rather, they want to collaborate.

Those in the "74%" have clearly shown on this thread that their ideas are vastly different from each other to the point in where they are mutually exclusive. If I'd have voted, I would have voted "Yes", but I don't want what the OP is suggesting.

"Daily 2000" does not mean that only 2000 play this game. Some might play only once a week, so there could be "weekly 14000" for all we know.
This user-created poll will probably stop getting votes when when stop keeping it on the first page.
Mutually exclusive ideas is a way to start a good collaboration.

[Hector0x]

I must admit that this thread somewhat changed my mind. It was my firm belief that “diplomacy” should always be left for modders. That it's a waste of time to ask Egosoft because they cannot risk emergent faction relation experiments. They really need this "static" story content to be able to sell their product. There is no mainstream market for a dynamic diplo sandbox ala Mayhem 3.

But that idea to temporarily “pause” certain lore based wars in case some bigger threat creeps up does sound absolutely viable for the vanilla game. Egosoft should really consider it. Factions can keep their static relations with each other and might just not invade at times. They could use a special turret override setting to hold fire or something.
This could make the gameworld much more resilient and solve major issues like “omg, why are the stupid Split still attacking the Argons and not defending against those Xenon fleets over there”.

The second diplo feature i’d consider to be “viable for vanilla” is to give the player a reputation reset after he practically "defeated" a faction. Let’s be honest. They should just surrender and sue for peace. That's what everybody who is advocating for a diplo system actually wants. Make it possible for them to win a war and normalize relations without having to farm criminal mass traffic and they will be happy. Also nobody gets hurt and everything remains optional (which seems to be the holy grail for Egosoft)

[Tilen]

I LOVE OP’s suggestion.

I would also like it a lot if ships sold to the AI (with active alliance?) used the ships instead of recycling them.