Skill and training Feedback

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

User avatar
Axeface
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri, 18. Nov 05, 01:41
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Axeface » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:23

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:14
Keep in mind that there's a bug at the moment with miners gaining skill. (Shout out to Mackan for finding that bug.) They only gain skill when they go in to trade the resources they've mined. Don't think the fix for that is out yet.
Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:59
Ships are on sector mining duty or distribute wares for a disproportionately long time without improving compared to other activities.
Distribute wares is actually particularly bad at improving pilots since it's the buy-once-sell-many script so mechanically doesn't offload full cargo holds worth of wares.
Well thats why I've brought it up multiple times, I see that as an issue as its the only automated trade skill we have (even though its 2 stars) forcing us to use our ships in different ways to skill up.

Combat pilots level up doing automated fighting at slow but fair pace.
Managers level up doing automated managing at slow but fair pace (bit too fast actually).
Traders dont level up doing automated trading? (Or do so so slowly that star citizen will be released by the time I have a 3 star pilot if I play normally).
My X4 Mods >> Argon Cyclops | Teladi Kea | And more...
Gallery of my X ships and fanart eg, Boron Megalodon
PS: We want the Boron! Please dont complicate it. Their ships don't need to be full of water and they could float around like baby yoda :boron: :boron:

Imperial Good
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 3157
Joined: Fri, 21. Dec 18, 19:23
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Imperial Good » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:28

The way I described involves bouncing wares like Energy Cells between 2 player owned trade stations in a closed cycle. The experience earnt is based on the fraction of the ship storage that was moved during the transaction, hence journeys are favoured over volume moved. This makes scout ships like the Pegasus Vanguard (fast, low storage) the most efficient training vehicles. Blacklists and restricted trade can be used to prevent other ships and stations from taking wares out of the closed loop. Only micro needed is to occasionally invert the direction of the flow of wares between the trade stations once one runs low. Can be scaled near infinitely as well just by adding more storage, wares and docks to the stations. This was verified as working during the 3.00 beta and took a very long time to get to 3 stars, but that time should be less due to some late beta changes to experience gain. I cannot confirm if it still works, or that the amount of time to hit 3 stars is now reasonable.

If any developers wish to fix this then a possible solution would be the experience earnt from trades being based on the absolute amount of ware moved (exp per 1,000 m^3 as an example) and possibly factor in distance flow divided by travel speed (not easy as no record of where wares were picked up).
Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:23
Combat pilots level up doing automated fighting at slow but fair pace.
Managers level up doing automated managing at slow but fair pace (bit too fast).
Traders dont level up doing automated trading? (Or do so so slowly that star citizen will be released by the time I have a 3 star pilot if I play normally).
Which is why I suggest the idea that similar to sector mining there should be "local trading" rather than just distribute wares. Local trading would be auto trader but limited to just 1 ware and only 1-2 sector buy/sell radius but need only 2 star pilots. 2 star pilots can be obtained fairly easily from station platforms and for the most part this range will be sufficient for many applications.

Another solution would be to allow an anchor sector to distribute wares. Currently it does not fulfil a common role where one wants traders moving wares around in a local area, and not across the universe. For example I might want to help ZYA economy by moving their wares but any traders on distribute wares will instead drift to shipping them to HOP or some other corner of the universe over time. Possibly the anchor sector could be where the ware should be sourced from, with sales naturally occurring in a radius around it.

Gregorovitch
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon, 5. Sep 11, 21:18
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Gregorovitch » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:44

Juggernaut93 wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:31
Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:10
What really irks me about it is the inconsistency. I trained 200 crew to 5 stars in engineering in a few hours without even realizing I had done it, merely by purchasing a builder and assigning it to add a few modules to a station (oddly none of them exceeded 3 stars in morale. Some would go a little over, but then go back down to 3 after a while).
That's because when a ship is idling there is a constant very small chance that they lose points in morale. The experience event category is called "ship_bored" in the AI xml files.
So that's why my pilots who I send on ventures all have pants morale?

Benrnd specifically mentioned ventures as a reasonable chance pilot level up activity so I have used them now for that purpose. However 'cos I'm out and about most all of the time they spend a lot of time waiting for me to get back to base send them out again. So their morale gets trashed, huh?

And we were supposed to know this how, exactly?

j.harshaw
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon, 23. Nov 15, 19:02

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:53

Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:23
Well thats why I've brought it up multiple times, I see that as an issue as its the only automated trade skill we have (even though its 2 stars) forcing us to use our ships in different ways to skill up.
I don't see it as an issue, to be honest. It's a means to automate trade that's available fairly early in the game and doesn't require as much knowledge of how trading works as, say, deciding which factory to build where. At the risk of sounding meta, think the reward is correctly proportionally lower.
Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:28
experience earnt from trades being based on the absolute amount of ware moved (exp per 1,000 m^3 as an example)
Problematic as that would introduce arbitrary numbers that are completely invisible to the player which I tend to avoid. Would introduce discrepancies in this case such as it being physically impossible for pilots in some ships to be able to do 100% efficient trades. Granted it's difficult if not impossible to find such efficient trades for the larger trading ships, but I tend to think of them (more as a player than as a developer) as more specialized pieces of equipment. Superfreighters that aren't very well-suited to use as trucks.
Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:28
possibly factor in distance flow divided by travel speed (not easy as no record of where wares were picked up).
Difficult with current implementation as you pointed out. The point at which trading experience is currently implemented is at the point where the ship is docked and is about to execute the trade. It was done this way for simplicity, to cover all cases of trade including manual trades. It wouldn't be impossible to split that off into the various ways in which trading can be ordered by the player, but that would introduce discrepancies such as those theories currently circulating involving trades given in some ways being more effective at giving experience than others. As it is, the only variables that are in consideration are the price of the trade (cheaper is better if buying, inverse if selling) and the amount of storage filled or cleared by each transaction, regardless of how the trade was initiated, and it is already very difficult to understand how that translates to skill gain.

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with manually queueing up trades? It's a lot easier in X4 than in XR and (I vaguely remember) in X3. I remember back when I was really playing, I had so few ships building up that it wasn't much of a bother and by the time I started thinking of ships as masses in large numbers, I had already built more than one station and was automating trade that way.
Gregorovitch wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:44
So that's why my pilots who I send on ventures all have pants morale?

Benrnd specifically mentioned ventures as a reasonable chance pilot level up activity so I have used them now for that purpose. However 'cos I'm out and about most all of the time they spend a lot of time waiting for me to get back to base send them out again. So their morale gets trashed, huh?
I have a task to improve this, but a lot of more urgent things keep pushing it back.

EDIT: added a reply to Gregorovitch's post. Didn't want to spam the thread.

User avatar
Axeface
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri, 18. Nov 05, 01:41
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Axeface » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:01

Well I just dont know what to say...... Immensely depressing.

Hopefully the new trade order that is going to be added soon will fill the gaping hole in gameplay.

PS: I did a test earlier in this thread where I queued up high quality manual trades for AGES and the captains piloting did not budge...................
My X4 Mods >> Argon Cyclops | Teladi Kea | And more...
Gallery of my X ships and fanart eg, Boron Megalodon
PS: We want the Boron! Please dont complicate it. Their ships don't need to be full of water and they could float around like baby yoda :boron: :boron:

ncc386
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon, 26. Apr 04, 12:58
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by ncc386 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:07

I've been queuing up trades to (hopefully) train my pilots. I haven't seen any improvements over a few hours, yet. I've also got one larger ship on sector mine duty. Left her running while I slept last night. Woke up hoping to go from 2 seminar-paid stars to 2.5 or 3 stars, but was disappointed to discover it made no improvements at all. Whatever you guys decide on doing in the long run, it would be nice if it makes it's way verbatim into the in-game encyclopedia so people don't have to wonder how stuff works and sift through a message forum to find hints.

j.harshaw
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon, 23. Nov 15, 19:02

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:14

I meant what's wrong with manually queueing up trades to just trade as opposed to using it as a means to improve skill. Is it just tedious?

ncc386
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon, 26. Apr 04, 12:58
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by ncc386 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:25

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:14
I meant what's wrong with manually queueing up trades to just trade as opposed to using it as a means to improve skill. Is it just tedious?
EDIT: IMO, it feels tedious driving around discovering previously "well-known" sectors and then creating a satellite network for all the stations just to be able to trade, whether it's done personally or from manually trading with the map. For example, my cell phone (google search and google maps) accomplishes keeping up to date with what businesses exist, where they're at, and how much they're selling things for without requiring me to physically visit things prior to being able to do business with them. I also don't have to drive to a new city in order for my GPS to become aware of it. I'd assume the future would work at least as well. The actual trading mechanics aren't tedious. They're the fun part!

rene6740
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat, 4. Oct 08, 17:35
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by rene6740 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:06

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 21:14
I meant what's wrong with manually queueing up trades to just trade as opposed to using it as a means to improve skill. Is it just tedious?
Have you actually tried to manually provide 33k smart chips to build the palace in the PAR plot with a single M Trader? Then you know what’s wrong with it. Yes one could use L traders, that’s not the point. Moving sliders and fighting the map with so many trades is not engaging and not fun at all.

1) It would be nice to max the cargo without having to move a slider (there is a post on that from today somewhere). Why don’t we have a „max“ button?

2) If you Filter a single Ware you only see „the best“ buy/sell offer when zoomed out. Why not display 5 offers for that single ware?
When zooming in the windows sometimes overlap that you cannot read the texts or select something.

The best offer might only be 20 units but the second best sells 5000. Sometimes I just want the quantity, sometimes I want the nearest one.

3) I find it hard to see the station that’s actual selling/buying. The line when you hover over the offer is not very visible and often times the station is behind the property window.

tomchk
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon, 26. Jan 15, 20:55
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:11

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:53
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with manually queueing up trades? It's a lot easier in X4 than in XR and (I vaguely remember) in X3.
I actually find it much easier to do in XR with that awesome single-window interface you guys added, maybe closer to 4.3. Any chance you could port that to X4 as an alternative?
I do love your map, which clearly took tons of work and is great for many things, including trade sometimes, but there's a ton of clicks and moving of mouse. For gamepad users like me, queueing tons of manual trades is especially tedious right now. Right now I think the process is this:
1) Ensure correct filters are active.
2) Ensure map is zoomed exactly where it must be to avoid massive trade distances (this is especially hard with ultra-wide setups like mine--any chance the menu can be forced to be 16:9 centered for very wide resolutions? That would improve many parts of the UI for me--so much moving across the entire screen right now).
3) Select trade ship.
4) Select ware to buy.
5) Drag mouse to full (any chance we can get a "max" button on each side? Almost every single trade I do just goes to max). Click confirm.
6) Select ware to sell.
7) Drag mouse to empty. Click confirm.
Repeat.
Care to see what I've been creating? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRTy3b ... eySApcxo3A

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 6110
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 00:07
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:25

rene6740 wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:06
The best offer might only be 20 units but the second best sells 5000. Sometimes I just want the quantity, sometimes I want the nearest one.
You can filter the trade info to exclude low volume trade offers. It's a bit vague (minimum volume can be set to none, low, medium or high, but doesn't specify what those levels are), but it is nevertheless effective at screening out those good price/low quantity trades.

tomchk
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon, 26. Jan 15, 20:55
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:27

rene6740 wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:06
The best offer might only be 20 units but the second best sells 5000. Sometimes I just want the quantity, sometimes I want the nearest one.
I agree with your points, but you can filter out stations with lower quantities. I think this is under the trade filters. Look for Minimum Volume, having to do with the "dots" representing that, like in this video: https://youtu.be/jK7F7RLrv2k?t=246
Care to see what I've been creating? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRTy3b ... eySApcxo3A

phrozen1
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri, 30. Nov 18, 12:37
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by phrozen1 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:31

on pilot training.
for me it's simply too slow. even if it would be twice as fast seminars would be still usefull.
and the price for skilled pilots is too high considering how fast they can die just out of bad luck or ai-"intelligence".
right now when you got a pilot to lvl 3 just through normal means you allready have a huge empire and don't need an auto-trader or miner any longer.

and on manually trading:
j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:53
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with manually queueing up trades?
The ability to define trade-routes and assign ships to them would be great.
Would make it much less tedious, more strategic and fun to create and refine the routes for maximum profit.

Also an option to just repeat a single trade a set amout of times, forever or until it's not profitable anymore.

Gregorovitch
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon, 5. Sep 11, 21:18
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Gregorovitch » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:42

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:53
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with manually queueing up trades?.
a) Because it's a boring repetitive task that nobody wants to do for any length of time........
b) .... and because you cannot justify spending your time doing repetitive manual tasks like that in this game after you get your first miner

Basically, like Factorio and for similar reasons, the game is all about automation because it's all about scaling up and snowballing. In the case of trading, your input as player is to figure out the market and spot a long term trade opportunity, you then give orders to your trade ships to exploit that automatically whilst you spend your time finding the next opportunity and set up other traders to exploit that, and so on. This is how you snowball and players want to snowball as fast as possible and go beat up Xenon with shiny new ships the snowballing pays for. Also players tend to judge their own performance against the speed with which they can snowball.

This is why folk are so upset about having their autotraders taken away from them.

Couple of other issues you've raised:

The criteria for leveling up traders that you describe does not feel either fair or realistic to me and I suspect a lot of people. It seems contrived and arbitrary. What the simulation should do, one would think, is reflect how successful a trader is operating in prevailing market conditions against competition. For example how much profit they make on what capital outlay over what period of time against some sort of benchmark average. At the very least, if a trader trades half a load of advanced electronics or microchips for four times the profit they would make from trading a full load of ecells or food rations it seems obvious they should earn a lot more experience from it.

As for the mining XP bug you mentioned, I would say that that bug on it's own is probably responsible for 30-40% of the upset over the Pilot Apocalypse on it's own. However, even when you fix it, it still means that rather than buy M or certainly L miners, players should always go for the smallest possible capacity miners with the fastest engines in order to maximise the trade XP element of the job earned. This is not a realistic simulation. Frankly, it sucks.

I am not happy to learn about this. It means that I have to now have:

1. Sell off my entire fleet of M miners
2. Buy a new fleet of S miners, at least twice as many.
3. Go through the gruesome grind of re-allocating them to their sectors
4. Sell of all my M station traders
5. Buy a new fleet of at least twice as many S station traders and re-allocate them all

And of course suffer the resultant bloat to my property list in perpetuity. All because of the way you have programmed pilot XP gains. So no bigger traders or miners until and unless you have a 5* captain seems to be the only way forward if my new understanding of the XP system is correct (if you want them to level up of course, and who doesn't ?).

Is this what your intention was? Did you really mean to write all freight and mining ships except the smallest fastest ones pretty much out of the game? I seriously doubt that, but from my understanding of what you have said here that is exactly what you've done. If I'm wrong and misunderstood you please correct me, but otherwise I would suggest that the chasm that exists between your intentions and the results argues for both a root and branch rethink of this and some immediate steps to alleviate the problems players are experiencing whilst that takes place.
Last edited by Gregorovitch on Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

GCU Grey Area
Posts: 6110
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 00:07
x4

Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:50

Gregorovitch wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 22:42
a) Because it's a boring repetitive task that nobody wants to do for any length of time........
Speak for yourself. I enjoy playing an active role in the Trade part of the game.

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations”