Skill and training Feedback

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Axeface
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Axeface » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 15:54

Andrey12y wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 15:39
Yesterdray I hired for free a Paranid on my station ~ 2.7 engineering/2.7 morale. Average hiring price on NPC stations - 500k or even 800, dont remember.
It seems such pilots (2.7/2.7) most commonly an Argon (in my game at least). I suggest building argon biome on own station for free pilots... Or a station in Argon space.
Just one 2-star seminar and they get third star.
Ive noticed this difference between split hires and argon. If I buy split ships I almost always get pilots under 1 star. I bought some novas from argon prime wharf and some pilots had 2 stars, one even had 2 2/3 star piloting. Argon are just better?
My X4 Mods >> Argon Cyclops | Teladi Kea | And more...
Gallery of my X ships and fanart eg, Boron Megalodon
PS: We want the Boron! Please dont complicate it. Their ships don't need to be full of water and they could float around like baby yoda :boron: :boron:

dougeye
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by dougeye » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 16:10

so do pilots actually level up slowly still? combat and industrial?
I used to list PC parts here, but "the best" will suffice!

TekDragon
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by TekDragon » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 17:20

Is that insane mechanic still in-place where skill-gain is inversely tied to how much you transport? So skill gain is faster on a tiny courier, but abysmal on a massive freighter?

That was honestly one of the most pointless, backwards, and immersion-breaking mechanics I've seen in a while from a simulation game. Literally no one would think of that on their own, and it was just gob-smacking to come on the forums and figure out that pilots should be trained to trade by having them stuff a few energy credits in their pockets and shuffle over to the nearest station for a McRib, and that using a freighter to top off the warehouses of stations with tens of thousands of high-demand wares was a horrible way to learn how to trade. I mean, who thinks of this garbage?

Admiral Sausage
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Admiral Sausage » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:10

I'm not going to read 33 pages, so sorry if I'm just repeating what other people have said a hundred times already:

What really irks me about it is the inconsistency. I trained 200 crew to 5 stars in engineering in a few hours without even realizing I had done it, merely by purchasing a builder and assigning it to add a few modules to a station (oddly none of them exceeded 3 stars in morale. Some would go a little over, but then go back down to 3 after a while).

Meanwhile, the miners and traders that have been working hard for me for days of real time have not gained any piloting experience at all. It must be particularly demoralizing for the two 3 star autotraders that I originally trained with seminars, who have travelled the length and breadth of the galaxy at my whim, surviving attacks by pirates and Xenon without complaint, and yet are firmly stuck at 3 stars still.

On ships that have seen much combat, the service crew have levelled up from repairing the hull, while the pilot just isn't able to learn anything. Sometimes the gain in skill is so uneven that I can replace the original pilot with one of the service crew, give them a few cheap trader-bought piloting seminars, and end up with a better pilot just because their morale had been raised higher than the pilot's. I feel bad about demoting someone who must have chosen piloting as their vocation in favour of someone whose sum total of piloting experience is reading a few books.

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Axeface
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Axeface » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:20

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:10
What really irks me about it is the inconsistency. I trained 200 crew to 5 stars in engineering in a few hours without even realizing I had done it, merely by purchasing a builder and assigning it to add a few modules to a station (oddly none of them exceeded 3 stars in morale. Some would go a little over, but then go back down to 3 after a while).
The really annoying thing about that specifically is that the captain is left behind while all their crew get loads of stars! My builder ship captains are still the morons I hired while most of their crews are sitting on 5 stars. The captains dont even seem to gain management which is the natural thing that they should be gaining in that role. I assume the captain of a builder ship is not just a helmsman, but also a site overseer or something.
My X4 Mods >> Argon Cyclops | Teladi Kea | And more...
Gallery of my X ships and fanart eg, Boron Megalodon
PS: We want the Boron! Please dont complicate it. Their ships don't need to be full of water and they could float around like baby yoda :boron: :boron:

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Juggernaut93
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Juggernaut93 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:31

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:10
What really irks me about it is the inconsistency. I trained 200 crew to 5 stars in engineering in a few hours without even realizing I had done it, merely by purchasing a builder and assigning it to add a few modules to a station (oddly none of them exceeded 3 stars in morale. Some would go a little over, but then go back down to 3 after a while).
That's because when a ship is idling there is a constant very small chance that they lose points in morale. The experience event category is called "ship_bored" in the AI xml files.

Admiral Sausage
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Admiral Sausage » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:35

Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:20
...I assume the captain of a builder ship is not just a helmsman, but also a site overseer or something.
Ah yes, that reminds me of a related issue - It's not clear which skills are actually relevant to a particular role. I believe autotraders use management, but you can't give them management seminars, and only piloting and morale are highlighted for any type of pilot. You can sort a ship's crew by their suitability for the Ship Trader role, but no skills are highlighted - does that mean that selling ships requires no skill at all?
Juggernaut93 wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:31
Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:10
What really irks me about it is the inconsistency. I trained 200 crew to 5 stars in engineering in a few hours without even realizing I had done it, merely by purchasing a builder and assigning it to add a few modules to a station (oddly none of them exceeded 3 stars in morale. Some would go a little over, but then go back down to 3 after a while).
That's because when a ship is idling there is a constant very small chance that they lose points in morale. The experience event category is called "ship_bored" in the AI xml files.
Given that the ship is continuously building, such that the crew gain a lot of engineering skill, it would be strange if they were considered idle. Maybe they just don't like the job, or maybe I should invest in some whips to improve morale.

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Juggernaut93
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Juggernaut93 » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:40

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:35
Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:20
...I assume the captain of a builder ship is not just a helmsman, but also a site overseer or something.
Ah yes, that reminds me of a related issue - It's not clear which skills are actually relevant to a particular role. I believe autotraders use management, but you can't give them management seminars, and only piloting and morale are highlighted for any type of pilot. You can sort a ship's crew by their suitability for the Ship Trader role, but no skills are highlighted - does that mean that selling ships requires no skill at all?
Autotraders use whichever is the highest between their piloting skill and their superior's management skill (if they are assigned to a station for example).

EDIT: at least for some of the parameters (such as maximum gate distance).

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:42

To give another perspective on this. I don't use auto-traders (or auto-miners for that matter), prefer to maintain direct control over what my freighters transport & where they go. Therefore have less need of 3* pilots. However what I do need are 4* pilots (or better) for my capital ships, they just function better with good captains. For me the change has been beneficial. I don't need highly skilled pilots at the start of the game, i.e. when I don't own any capital ships. However when I do start to get my own capitals (I've got 2 so far) I've had more than enough opportunities to obtain seminars that I can instantly promote them to at least 4*, pretty much as soon as I can afford to build each one. Same with station managers. Recently built my first station - was incredibly easy to train the manager up to the full 5 gate radius (it took seconds), compared to several hours slowly gaining management levels in my last game. Changes to the skill system haven't been entirely negative.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Andrey12y » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:21

For training I recommend use small fighters, make a target polygon from Khaak defence platforms or helpless bigships.
Example - my Mamba pilot with 2 and 2/3 stars participated in attack on Khaak platform and she get last 1/3 from that. Another pilot didnt advance, but he did on the next platform and get his 3rd star.
It should be noted that my pilots are on combat duty - they defend gates in Hatikvah choice for hours and killing dozens of Xenons.

Also its logical that trader on a small fast ship has more chances to get XP, due to more operations he made (if that chances are rng).

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:47

Admiral Sausage wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 18:35
It's not clear which skills are actually relevant to a particular role.
All of the roles use only one skill plus Morale.

Pilots use Piloting,
Managers use Management,
Ship crew use Engineering,
Marines use Boarding,

All of the above plus Morale. Skills are not relevant for any other roles including ship traders.

The only exception is for ships working for stations which can use their manager's Management skill if it is higher than their Piloting skill.
TekDragon wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 17:20
I mean, who thinks of this garbage?
That would be me.
TekDragon wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 17:20
Is that insane mechanic still in-place where skill-gain is inversely tied to how much you transport?
Correction: how much of your cargo hold you fill or empty per transaction.
Andrey12y wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:21
Also its logical that trader on a small fast ship has more chances to get XP, due to more operations he made (if that chances are rng).
Correct. The sheer number of transactions increases the chances over time of increasing skill. That's mostly why managers gain skill so quickly.

EDIT: fixed wrong quote. the first one.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:54

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:47
TekDragon wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 17:20
I mean, who thinks of this garbage?
That would be me.
Sorry about our collective harshness sometimes... :/ It can't be easy to read and respond, so thanks.
Any hints on whether pilot skill will go up more often? I suspect that's the biggest issue on which most agree. I am not saying it should go up a lot faster, but so many of us have had no progress outside of combat for dozens/hundreds of hours.

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Axeface
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Axeface » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:59

tomchk wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:54
Any hints on whether pilot skill will go up more often? I suspect that's the biggest issue on which most agree. I am not saying it should go up a lot faster, but so many of us have had no progress outside of combat for dozens/hundreds of hours.
Need to be specific! Its 'piloting' not increasing for automated trade and mining ship captains once they hit 2 stars, that is the issue right? Ships are on sector mining duty or distribute wares for a disproportionately long time without improving compared to other activities.
My X4 Mods >> Argon Cyclops | Teladi Kea | And more...
Gallery of my X ships and fanart eg, Boron Megalodon
PS: We want the Boron! Please dont complicate it. Their ships don't need to be full of water and they could float around like baby yoda :boron: :boron:

tomchk
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:02

Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:59
tomchk wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:54
Any hints on whether pilot skill will go up more often? I suspect that's the biggest issue on which most agree. I am not saying it should go up a lot faster, but so many of us have had no progress outside of combat for dozens/hundreds of hours.
Need to be specific! Its 'piloting' not increasing for automated trade and mining ship captains once they hit 2 stars, that is the issue right? Ships are on sector mining duty or distribute wares for a disproportionately long time without improving compared to other activities.
Good point. I think that's the problem I've had as well. I love the vision of the developers, as usual, and I like the added challenge, but what you just highlighted does seem like too much (too little chance to get past 2 stars). Again, I'm not for a big change, just something to prevent these long-term roadblocks.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 29. Apr 20, 20:14

Keep in mind that there's a bug at the moment with miners gaining skill. (Shout out to Mackan for finding that bug.) They only gain skill when they go in to trade the resources they've mined. Don't think the fix for that is out yet.
Axeface wrote:
Wed, 29. Apr 20, 19:59
Ships are on sector mining duty or distribute wares for a disproportionately long time without improving compared to other activities.
Distribute wares is actually particularly bad at improving pilots since it's the buy-once-sell-many script so mechanically doesn't offload full cargo holds worth of wares. Easiest way I've found via trading is by setting up a station that trades in high-volume wares in an area where those wares move quickly. Imperial Good described an even more efficient way in one of his posts, but I personally never felt the need to resort to something like that.

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