Skill and training Feedback

[StoneLegionYT]

This issue with stars of pilots and hanky traders literally killed my 3.1 play through. Game is back on shelf.

hanky traders? care to explain? and you can easily get a 2 star pilot through seminars almost immediately, so it's getting that third star that is the issue for you? how long do you feel is fair to just have auto traders all over the map? I guess, depending on your expectations, you probably should shelve the game.

so should you never have them? The current leveling system pretty much means you can't ever have 3 star pilots...

[humility925]

It's should be reasonable level up to 5 when come to trading and miner, if we can't grow from there and stuck at 2 star, even it's slow to get 2 star, they need to learn what is fun and enjoy, not suffering and limited too much for people, hardcore is few, but major people are not, I said there should be level up zero star to 5 star easy in automine and autotrade, I personal think autotade should be start from zero, and more star they had, more income and keep all thing running better rather than block player ability autotrade till somehow they got 3 star pilot to start trading.

It's no good and no fun to block player's ability to play game and had to be 3 star to start autotrade when it's should start at zero star. and get better from there as skill grow overtime (reasonable, not too long for this game without seta)

It's like buy game but can't play game unless you had 3 star pilot magic.

[grapedog]

This issue with stars of pilots and hanky traders literally killed my 3.1 play through. Game is back on shelf.

hanky traders? care to explain? and you can easily get a 2 star pilot through seminars almost immediately, so it's getting that third star that is the issue for you? how long do you feel is fair to just have auto traders all over the map? I guess, depending on your expectations, you probably should shelve the game.

so should you never have them? The current leveling system pretty much means you can't ever have 3 star pilots...

I have, i think now, almost 1700 ships flying about in my current game... and I'd say it's a fair guess that at least 1/3rd of them are 3 total stars and above. Looking at my overview, I've got 24k+ hired personnel working for me, with an average star rating between ALL of them at 2 stars. So i think it's safe to say that I have a 1/3rd above that and 1/3rd below that number... though I don't know if/how that would include workforces in stations. I've got like 35+ stations, and I think all but one stations has a workforce built into it.

I agree that stars are pretty damn slow, and I much prefer a modification of the original star method where stars equal a certain amount of gates. I thought personally it was too forgiving back in 1.0, but this is also too restrictive. I don't see why we can't go back to the original, but tweak it. Each star gives you 2 gates of travel for a trader/miner. So a 2 star pilot can fly up to 4 sectors away from his starting location. A 5 star pilot can fly up to 10 sectors away from his starting location. I think that's pretty fair, not unbalanced, but gives your miners and traders a decent amount of space to work in.

[Gregorovitch]

so should you never have them? The current leveling system pretty much means you can't ever have 3 star pilots...

Well, I'm not sure about that, I mean when you get to later game and you have pilots involved in much more continuous combat I would guess you'd find a lot of them progressed beyond 3*, but yeah, from my experience so far getting 3* expert miners and autotraders up to early mid-game anyway (which is where I've got to this playthrough) is pretty much not possible.

I've been thinking about this, specifically about why Ego have nerfed pilot progression so much with this update. I'm sure they know what they are doing but I'm not so sure we do yet. Yesterday it occurred to me it was to do with increasing the political and economic impact the player has on the galaxy. If you look at both the Split situation and the Paranid/HOP/Argon situation (and the fact that there are new big quest lines highlighting the political/cultural issues involved) it makes sense that Ego not only want to encourage players to take sides but also to make a significant difference to the power balances in these conflicts.

Now the issue with expert miners and autotraders from this perspective is that they are to all intents and purposes neutral parasitic money printing machines. They are service industries, not production industries. They don't affect the power balance anything like as much as stations that produce the stuff needed to build ships and other new stations (well, miners do, but only at the margins, the bottom end of the production chain).

So I'd venture the hypothesis that the intention, or at least part of the intention, of these changes is to nudge (or perhaps more accurately shove) player's focus away from expert miner and autotrader fleets and more towards stations and, with these new political plots and the seeming increase in military threat from the HOP and Xenon etc, where specifically these stations are built by the player, who they supply to.

I say hypothesis 'cos I have no idea whether this actually is/was Ego's intention, however I would say that this is exactly the effect the changes have had. Stations reign supreme now because station managers are easy to start out at 2*, meaning station traders and miners can travel two gates from the get go, and quickly rise in level to four/five stars. One way to summarize the intention behind the change by this logic is that it is designed to thicken the plot.

[dtpsprt]

I have, i think now, almost 1700 ships flying about in my current game... and I'd say it's a fair guess that at least 1/3rd of them are 3 total stars and above. Looking at my overview, I've got 24k+ hired personnel working for me, with an average star rating between ALL of them at 2 stars. So i think it's safe to say that I have a 1/3rd above that and 1/3rd below that number... though I don't know if/how that would include workforces in stations. I've got like 35+ stations, and I think all but one stations has a workforce built into it.

I agree that stars are pretty damn slow, and I much prefer a modification of the original star method where stars equal a certain amount of gates. I thought personally it was too forgiving back in 1.0, but this is also too restrictive. I don't see why we can't go back to the original, but tweak it. Each star gives you 2 gates of travel for a trader/miner. So a 2 star pilot can fly up to 4 sectors away from his starting location. A 5 star pilot can fly up to 10 sectors away from his starting location. I think that's pretty fair, not unbalanced, but gives your miners and traders a decent amount of space to work in.

Since it's pretty much impossible to have grown such an empire since the release of 3.10, shouldn't you just keep off this conversation? It has to do with people that wee waiting for he game to be playable to fork out the money for it or, like me, who bought the pre release (YES I do love X Universe and want to support Egosoft), but didn't touch it till recently or the same reasons (unplayable). What do you have in common with them?

P.S. I made a nice playthrough in v 2.60 but erased it since it is of very little relevance with v 3.00, i.e. the PHQ was fully developed, so I didn't have to go through the actual effort to gather what's needed for Research...

[grapedog]

Since it's pretty much impossible to have grown such an empire since the release of 3.10, shouldn't you just keep off this conversation?

because i can't hire new pilots for the ships i purchase or build since the patch came out? since the patch came out, i've got more 3 star captains than I can shake a stick at.... you don't need a 3 star pilot, you need a 3 star captain. Does no one pay attention to their service crew? Engineering, Management, Morale, and Boarding all increase very quickly... i've got literal hordes of 3 and 4 star captains just sitting on my service crew fixing my ships, ships that I bought and crewed AFTER the patch. there are a plethora of captains to be had... but yes, getting specifically 3 stars in piloting is more difficult than it needs to be.

but if ya'll want to pat each other on the back as you complain about how you can't get auto traders and auto miners... have at it.

[adeine]

I feel they should just remove the 3-star requirement for auto traders and do the same thing as they did for auto miners.

As it is, it's easier to not bother with auto traders at all, and by the time you could have them, there is little point.

[StoneLegionYT]

So it's hard for my to articulate in words at times so I made a video trying to explain the best I could on how we need to get away from casino system and move to a proper leveling system with experience points.

https://youtu.be/qF9j0MHqbug

[Gregorovitch]

Thanks for posting the vid, I didn't know it worked like that, very informative and I can relate it to what I've seen myself.

But actually I think your point is not quite right. They are easily able to balance it whichever way they like under the current system simply by changing the odds of rolling a 1/3 level up (which is exactly what they've done in 3.0, i.e reduced the % for pilots). Additionally because the rolls are very frequent, like each trade triggers one for example, the laws of probability mean pilots doing roughly the same thing at the same rate will get their level ups in very similar times, always.

The issue I think is that they've made the % chance for pilots trading and mining to level up so small that hitting three such rolls to get from 2 to 3 stars is like winning the lottery or lightening striking twice. I would say that's deliberate, i.e. Ego do not want players to get 3* pilots for expert miners and autotraders early game anymore except as a very lucky bonus event.

But they could easily change that if they wanted to at the drop of a hat by simply changing the odds, same as any other system.

[StoneLegionYT]

Yes you are correct they can change the odds in favor of easier leveling for sure. But it still goes back to the system of being a poor method of leveling. In my books not leveling it's just a casino system and should be stated as such haha. I feel like our Crew should gain and learn with their experience and use it to apply for new ranks.

Chance base will always have ups and downs where a proper leveling system would have so many more options and opportunities.

[tomchk]

I’m fine with them using the current system so long as they make piloting more likely to go up. As many say, by the time it happens many players don’t need it anymore. I’m just starting my first wharf and have had no auto traders and won’t bother with them at this point.

[StoneLegionYT]

I’m fine with them using the current system so long as they make piloting more likely to go up. As many say, by the time it happens many players don’t need it anymore. I’m just starting my first wharf and have had no auto traders and won’t bother with them at this point.

I assume your just focusing on your own stations and trading now? This where it's sort of forcing us to go. Just my best ships in the fleet who is going pilot them lol

[tomchk]

Yep all sector mining (can’t do advanced because training so slow) and stations. Looking forward to an update from Egosoft.

[lordmuck]

Got a few to level 3 from my pilot school..

They just kill shizzle not fast but at least its helping faster than trying to locate missions for seminars

[humility925]

I feel they should just remove the 3-star requirement for auto traders and do the same thing as they did for auto miners.

As it is, it's easier to not bother with auto traders at all, and by the time you could have them, there is little point.

those auto trade isn't about money, but rather it's should help all faction's good to keep flow, lot of people had problem with many faction don't build lot of turret on staton, not build lot of fleet, why? because resource, faction had unlimited money but can't do anything because said resource to build. That's where autotrade come ine, but problem you can't start autotrade till pilot are 3 star level and you unable to help all factions that way, and automine can't help that because seem they don't grow beyond 2 star level, there is even 3 and 4 star of mine but yet can't be used or try out because they don't grow at all beyond 2 star, and it's dose to seem blocked player ability to play, mostly peaceful player, I guess combat player had no issues since they send many pilot to death in combat only gain pilot level 3, but peaceful player don't want to play that path and roleplaying murdering their pilot to get 3 level like that.

I had no issues pilot gain level faster even to 5 level in combat, good for them, but as peaceful, trade player that forced on peace trade, not war, that is where problem is, I had so much fleet of mine ship for many hours, waiting for them to move to trade ship, but couldn't because no one beyond 2 star level, let alone automine 3 and 4 star level (if they reach 3 and 4 star level, I guess it's meant I don't need many automine, so I need less automine, but can't, and I had to had too many automine because up to 2 star, only forced to stay in one sector, while 3 or 4 only can go anywhere they need to and don't need many automine for that while rest of automine move to trade if there already automine 3 and 4 star but it's not happend, many automine stuck in one sector, and I can't do anything about because pilot 3 star is so rare, and it's cost 60,000,000 when I find those who without mission offer, not very good design at all and not design for fun play in sandbox because player wasn't allowed to get those easy in many long, long hours unless player is warlord, but not all player is warlord, some just want peace trade lord.

[grapedog]

Remember, you don't need a 3 star pilot.... you need a total 3 star captain.

At least for me, ive always made it a habit to put a full crew on my ships... engineering and morale go up pretty quick. Look at your service crews, and see if you have workers with 3 total stars. In my game, i have HUNDREDS of 3 and 4 star captains if i need them... they are just mostly like 4 engineering star, 3 or 4 morale stars.... promote to captain, bam, auto trade or auto mine ready to go. Once they are in the captains chair and you have already set them to auto trade, throw em a few super cheap seminars, now you have a 2 star pilot, 4 star engineer, 3 or 4 star in morale... average is still over 3, and they're doing good things for your empire.

[Berhg]

I agree with the negative feedback on how slow pilots level on their own.

I started a new game in 3.0 and 72 game hours (edit: meant 148 hours, not 72) in none of my 30 something sector miners have gotten to 3 star pilot on their own. Same with combat ship pilots. The only reasonable way to gain pilot skill is to use the seminars. Its cheap and easy (if annoyingly clicking intensive) to get Pilot up to 2 stars using seminars. The only way to get pilot seminars to go over 2 stars is to run missions where they are randomized rewards. Having to run missions to get advanced seminars is arbitrary, tiresome, and incongruous with my expectation of how pilots should gain experience for their stars.

It seems to me that pilots leveling on their own has been crushed out of regular gameplay in order to emphasize the seminars which are gated behind minigames which some people find uninteresting.

For a simple fix I suggest increasing pilot experience gain. Also, I suggest making high level seminars available to purchase at costs similar to hiring high level pilots from docks (exponentially expensive).

Additionally I have an idea for changing the way seminars work. What if seminars gave a substantial experience gain rate boost instead of a set amount of stars?

[joppe_k]

I watched the video of how crew experience works that Kane Hart posted above. Good info. Thanks Kane!

Basically it seems there are 15 steps: 5 stars divided into thirds. Each action has a probability (e.g. a "dice roll") to gain another third of a star, hence the "casino system".

There are a few ways to fix the system, of course, but one of the key failings with the current implementation is that there are too few steps and thus the probability to gain a third of a star must be very low. Otherwise, the captain would just blast through the stars in no time. As those of you who studied statistics will know, having a losing streak at a roulette table will NOT make it more likely that you'll win from now on. This is a common misinterpretation of what is called "the law of big numbers". For a captain, this means that it's quite likely that they will make no progress whatsoever for extended periods of time, and a new captain may just be lucky and skill up quickly. The idea that, "well, it all evens out in the end, give enough captains and time" doesn't work well, when I'm trying to level up my one favorite Rattlesnake captain.

A reasonably simple fix for this would be to introduce more steps. Instead of 15 steps of thirds of a star, you could have 1500 steps and calculate the number of stars as

Code: Select all

currentSkill DIV 100

(DIV here being integer division). This will still give you thirds of stars, but each third have 100 smaller skill levels in it, so to speak. In order to achieve the same leveling rate, you'd have to increase the probability of increasing by 1/1500 for each "dice roll", but this probability will be significantly higher than to increase a whole third of a star. This will result in fewer failed "dice rolls" and feel like a smoother overall progression.

[mr.WHO]

Instead of "dice roll" it would be better to have normal XP gain like:
100 XP for one star
500 XP for two stars
2500 XP for three stars

That way you can at least be sure you'll have experienced crew eventually.
"dice roll" is simply frustarting.

Plus it smell awfully like paid lootboxes - wanna 5 star captain? pay 1$, it's just one buck right?

[Axeface]

Instead of "dice roll" it would be better to have normal XP gain like:
100 XP for one star
500 XP for two stars
2500 XP for three stars

That way you can at least be sure you'll have experienced crew eventually.
"dice roll" is simply frustarting.

Plus it smell awfully like paid lootboxes - wanna 5 star captain? pay 1$, it's just one buck right?

I actually quite like the random nature of it, its just too little a chance for 2+ stars so it effectively never happens, imo. Some captains will feel like morons and others like savants, kinda like it.