[WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

[StoneLegionYT]

I'm pretty sure Marvin Martian is the only one working on it and if he was not this project be dead from the looks of all the commits on Github. I'm actually more ticked off with Marvin for not making a new thread or getting some sort of strange merge over to give him the first thread so he can edit it.

The wording your going on pretty much tells you this not even a mod yet but something in the making down the road. So it means you can't complain about it due to how your complaining what is written on post 1 well in post 1 there is no mod yet

[Marvin Martian]

shipparts was intendet as connection to SY and faster build ships (one day i will update ware.xml with lower production times, actually the times are vanilla), and to get other factions good gains from ship-constructions (like in case player can't/won't own a SY)
and as a way to produce "Parts" in each corner of the Galaxy it is possible, instead of deliver individual wares to the shipyards

BR has the idea to extend it to CVs and Stationsbuilding too (won't ever happend - plan is from very old days) - BR was builder of CWIR, here i helped out with some changes, one big thing was to destroy replace each station, so an main overhaul of the map was required -i started coding, add old CWIR stuff but finally BR haven't had much time to test or code, so i release for "public testing" now we are here - last update at frontpage was from an Mod to add the link to github, the text is mostly unchanged sind ages, so some points are very hard outdated

Now there was a not easy way up here with Shipparts (i'm happe someone have a better idea for some problems, but it doesn't help to post some strange storys without any idea whats going on - some solutions are simply not helpfull if you know all problems not only the one you like to fix) and not everything working like expected, so i need some workarounds, but from beginning SP was a WIP modification, so NF will run without it, but slightliy different (factions need to buy ships from card, not custom preferation)

In my opionion the Economy is weak, and the low-tech solution for find new station is not what it has to be - to be in debt the point of CPU usage and the point each station produce different wares not each only one
so it may work to add into Shippart Mod another new station who can balance the lack of wares - but it won't help to change wares of SP-Production (it is a part of an regular capitalship)
Yes it is more expensive finally, smaller capitals are much more expensive like without parts, but who cares - at an very early point you get so much money that won't care

[StoneLegionYT]

I think spawning doesn't mean created out of thin air, I think it just means ships that are added to faction pools on being created in docks etc.

A way to test this is to go to Epssilon lowlands (https://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/universe/ ... /sector-4/) It should be owned by Sovereign Syndicate, and they'll likely only have a shipyard (and maybe a few stations) and 2-3 capitals. Kill/capture them all, and sit in there with SETA overnight. Odds are you'll never see more being spawned.

That being said, Sovereign syndicate seems critically weak every game I've played so far, and it always serves as my place to get a free trade ship + CV

lol, thanks for the info hmm interesting.

[Thufar]

Thufar says, "Oooh, some interesting posts lately."

I have some RL things that call, but I'll be back. I think I have some foundational questions that may need/want to be answered regarding this whole ship parts thing. Again, I will be back.

In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?

Oh, and as I peruse the ware xml I don't easily find the wares for ship part or ship part weapons. Can someone give me the nomenclature for those part names in the programming? Or, if not in wares xml, where then?

Oh, the clock, time to go,
Thufar

[bitvoid]

Thufar says, "Oooh, some interesting posts lately."

I have some RL things that call, but I'll be back. I think I have some foundational questions that may need/want to be answered regarding this whole ship parts thing. Again, I will be back.

In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?

I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.

Oh, and as I peruse the ware xml I don't easily find the wares for ship part or ship part weapons. Can someone give me the nomenclature for those part names in the programming? Or, if not in wares xml, where then?

You have to look at the wares.xml in mm_uspprod/libraries. Ship parts have the ware id shippart while ship part weapons have the ware id shippartcomp.

[Drewgamer]

[...]
In the mean time and please pardon my pea brain when it comes to programing (last studied by me before PCs were on the market and BASIC was the new thing in programming languages - yes, I'm old), sometimes my Civ Ship Parts Lot displays under the Production/h column "180x Ship part" and sometimes it displays "180x Ship part (Weapons). I was looking in the t file and noticed this <t id="2055">Ship part \(Weapons\)</t>. A perusal of the file indicates the use of two " \ " is not isolated, but unusual, as I expected it to be "Ship part (Weapons). Could that nomenclature possibly be a reason for the disparity in the display described above? If it is correct, what do the two " \ " do or indicate?
[...]

I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.

Yup, the backslash "\" here is used as an "escape" character so that parts of text are read as plain text. In this case, it's to allow the parentheses to be used in the plain text for "Ship part (Weapons)"

[Thufar]

I haven't worked with the t files much but often in programming the backslashes inside text are used to prevent some characters as being interpreted as having special meaning. From the other occurances in the file it looks like normally, things in brackets would be interpreted as notes to the translators and therefore not be present in the final output. The "\" prevents that.

Yup, the backslash "\" here is used as an "escape" character so that parts of text are read as plain text. In this case, it's to allow the parentheses to be used in the plain text for "Ship part (Weapons)"

Thanks guys, I now know infinitely more about modding than I did this morning. Therefore, today is a good day (I learned something - retaining it is a whole different story ).

I am afraid it's much worse than that. Thufar blabs on and on about what he observes in game...

I believe you're missing an important piece of the puzzle here.

Hehe, that's probably the understatement of this whole thread .

All production modules on the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) alternate between 2 production methods. First, they do a rather slow (and comparatively cheap) production of ship/weapon parts (production method "Albion"). After that, they do the quick and expensive "Assemble" cycle for ship parts.

In your case, it appears some production modules were stuck on the "Assemble" method which makes it look like they are using absolutely excessive amounts of resources. Once they finish that cycle though you'll see that they start a much less expensive production of the "Albion" method for ship/weapon parts.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the plasma flow regulator consumption needs adjustment but it's not by any means as bad as you made it out to be.

Thank you for the clarification. It appears that is, at least generally, what is going on in my game.

Thank you also for pointing me to the appropriate place to find nomenclature for ship parts.

Got some studying to do.
Thufar

[Thufar]

Before any of you begin to question why I know this much, allow me to disclaim myself: I have done things I should not have.

Apologies Vectorial1024 if I've caused you to step in something that you shouldn't have. I'm not sure what it is you did and, if you don't mind, can you pm me what you did so I can learn not to do it?

Step by step...

… and thank you for patiently catching me up on the history and what happened. It helps.

So, as I began my quest of learning how to play TNF, Thufar asked "Self, why did they choose to make the two ship parts in Civ Ship Parts Lot?'" Answer, if I understand it correctly, it seems it was needed very early on to make the station work, as opposed producing absolutely nothing. That make sense except, vanilla Civ Ship Parts Lots work now. Conclusion, the two ship parts don't "have" to be made at the Civ Ship Parts Lot.

All production modules on the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) alternate between 2 production methods. First, they do a rather slow (and comparatively cheap) production of ship/weapon parts (production method "Albion"). After that, they do the quick and expensive "Assemble" cycle for ship parts.

Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.

So, Cat #3) Why base the shippart production out of a Civ Ship Parts Lot. It looks like the major obstacle to using this station is the variability in the production runs. Why not use any of the other stations with six production runs. It would have stable production runs. Give the new station a new name, re-categorize the production runs, re-allocate the resource consumption, and viola! I assume I'm missing something, as this hasn't been done - or is this too easy?

I'm not sure if I understand correctly.

Ok, let me try again.

...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming. It is also assumed that part of the Ship Part production chaos (as I think Marvin Martian pointed out earlier), is because of the use of the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for production of ship parts.

So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.

Would you not then have a stable production facility?

Then...

if someone like to help:
one thing may to bring a new station type into game that make required wares (and/)or improve code of station-section (just for clearence existing code, not dozen of files

If I understand Marvin correctly, he's saying something similar as I'm thinking.

Regards,
Thufar

[bitvoid]

So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.

There being a 2 part production chain is not caused by the station being a Civ Ship Parts Lot but instead it was done intentionally by design. The Civ Ship Parts Lot could very well have production modules that only produce a single ware using the same production method over and over.

[Marvin Martian]

Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.

OL-Ships need much more weapons then other types, AL do still build them slower, but there already to much of them, so the idea to make them into Shipparts too
but feel free to add a possible suggestion for better use

similar problem actually with turrets, maybe an dedicated recycling center may possible - but thats nothing i can try

It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot.

You can produce where you want, but you may not change productions after gamestart so my options to patch stations is limited (people always cry i change position of a buildspot - so this may a solution in case the new way will solve the problem, not only for show) - i'm also not a fan of patch modules into existing stations - finally this won't solve something anyway - you may calculate in case also bigger storages too if you change the vanilla production-times/amounts

i simply try to find a way (hoefully best) to solve a problem/task and use them, without good solution i won't and can't change everything afterwards because something is not so ... whatever

the other thing is, i can't simply build stations with an GUI or something, so i may arrange each part into a station, thats only very limited - if here some people who have to much free time, feel free to build a nice complex - thats actually exceeds my possibilities of time to do this

but possible is everthing, you can use the ship-production complex (don't ask me name for) and replace ship-productions with an module of shipparts, so you have a hand full of resources still available - or simply don't use the mod i add and make an another nicer shipparts mod, where all is balanced - like i say, it is not integrated into nf

[Vectorial1024]

So, as I began my quest of learning how to play TNF, Thufar asked "Self, why did they choose to make the two ship parts in Civ Ship Parts Lot?'" Answer, if I understand it correctly, it seems it was needed very early on to make the station work, as opposed producing absolutely nothing. That make sense except, vanilla Civ Ship Parts Lots work now. Conclusion, the two ship parts don't "have" to be made at the Civ Ship Parts Lot.

At first, only the Ship Parts were produced in the Civ Ships Parts Lot. (It fits; you see, "Ship Parts" inside "Civ Ship Parts Lot"; that's how I understand it.)

...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming.

It was later when we decided to try Ship Parts (Weapons) (which is basically Weapon Parts), did we add in the Ship Parts (Weapons) into the production cycles. But yeah, we kind of added this as an early Alpha feature, so everything is as chaotic as they have ever been.

Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.

I'm not really in a position to comment on Ship Parts; that's too much history piled on top of it.

For the Ship Parts (Weapons), ...! Of course, we will want Ship Parts (Weapons) to be made similarly compared to Ship Parts. This is what I am trying to do. I want to submit a set of numbers that is fit for producing Ship Parts (Weapons). (I actually thought it might be possible to just override the Turret Forge modules to produce Ship Parts (Weapons) with the set of numbers I come up with.) But, there were some problems. And as we patched the code one by one, it resulted in the rather bizarre situation we are now in. (There were so many patches and methods I am not sure which one we are using...)

...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming.

Too many variables and uncertainties; have to place-hold it...

So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.

Would you not then have a stable production facility?

(Urge to buy X4 intensifies)

X4 improved upon X Rebirth (and previous X-games) by giving us a GUI to plan stations. Under the hood, station blueprints in X Rebirth are hard-coded. One does not simply swap out modules and call it a day; one must also make sure that the new module fits well, and does not block space and pathways.

So... if you really want a "new station", as in, completely new, never-before-seen-in-vanilla, you gotta do a lot of coding. That's where the pain begins. Just looking at the quaternions is making my mind melt. Also consider the certain "architecture styles" employed by the Albionians, Canterans, Omicronians, Teladi, and yada yada.

However, I find that designing Omicron Lyrae stations is by far the easiest. Everything is so modular that you could make something symmetrical and really call it a day.

And also: a new object model would be required if you really want a new station component to produce Ship Parts. (I don't mean repurposing existing station components; like, completely new, never-before-seen new.) No one ever knows where to find such designers...

So yeah. To conclude: technical aspects (as in coding) is ok to change. But the visual aspects? They would require too much work to make it worthwhile. Would resort to repurposing existing components.

[BlackRain]

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

[StoneLegionYT]

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it

[Marvin Martian]

Add an small update regarding the Crew problems at HV/XEN Start - Xenon should have her people in Malstrom now (actually only MA/OL/AL adjusted, once later will update DLC and other spaces too)

[Thufar]

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

Dag nagget, I typed all this up, hit submit, and got sent to login screen. So, here goes again.

Hi BlackRain, it appears I've struck an unintended bad chord. I've been asking questions about the introduction of two ship part wares, and why in an attempt to understand why and help with the problem.

First, I am not a programmer, therefore not a modder. Just a player, and my observations are from in-game.

Second, the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) consumes and inordinate amount of plasma flow regulators, iirc, and causes a situation similar to the old RMP shortage problem. It appears a player must now build 5 or more stations to produce enough PFRs to support one Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), and that seems inordinately high. Of course, no ship parts = no CVs = no new stations to build PFRs....

Third, it appears to me, there's a flood of underlying products in this mod, making ship part production "the" best way to make money in the trading aspect of this mod and that is broken.

Fourth, of the two production runs in the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), the Ship Part production seems to be stable. The Ship Part (Weapons) is another story. Depending on when you look at that production run, it can display production as "(quantity here) Ship Part (Weapons)" or "(same quantity here) Ship Part". Also, it appears the needed resources display change, as well as the quantity thereof. I now understand part of that problem is the assembly run, but that is only part of the problem I am describing here.

Fifth, my ignorant/unknowledgeable thinking was that the problem lay with the use of the variable production in the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for ship parts production and why wasn't a more stable production facility used, or why one couldn't be used.

Apologies to any and all if I've given the appearance of "questioning" anyone. This is just me, the ignorant, trying to ask questions and offer possible solutions.

Regards,
Thufar

[Drewgamer]

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it

I realize that its a WIP and not a released mod, but perhaps it would be a good idea to turn over control of the thread to someone who can maintain it a bit better

[BlackRain]

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

Dag nagget, I typed all this up, hit submit, and got sent to login screen. So, here goes again.

Hi BlackRain, it appears I've struck an unintended bad chord. I've been asking questions about the introduction of two ship part wares, and why in an attempt to understand why and help with the problem.

First, I am not a programmer, therefore not a modder. Just a player, and my observations are from in-game.

Second, the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) consumes and inordinate amount of plasma flow regulators, iirc, and causes a situation similar to the old RMP shortage problem. It appears a player must now build 5 or more stations to produce enough PFRs to support one Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), and that seems inordinately high. Of course, no ship parts = no CVs = no new stations to build PFRs....

Third, it appears to me, there's a flood of underlying products in this mod, making ship part production "the" best way to make money in the trading aspect of this mod and that is broken.

Fourth, of the two production runs in the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), the Ship Part production seems to be stable. The Ship Part (Weapons) is another story. Depending on when you look at that production run, it can display production as "(quantity here) Ship Part (Weapons)" or "(same quantity here) Ship Part". Also, it appears the needed resources display change, as well as the quantity thereof. I now understand part of that problem is the assembly run, but that is only part of the problem I am describing here.

Fifth, my ignorant/unknowledgeable thinking was that the problem lay with the use of the variable production in the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for ship parts production and why wasn't a more stable production facility used, or why one couldn't be used.

Apologies to any and all if I've given the appearance of "questioning" anyone. This is just me, the ignorant, trying to ask questions and offer possible solutions.

Regards,
Thufar

For your second point, isn't this something which could easily be changed by editing the amount of plasma flow regulators it takes to build a ship part? Seems like a simple fix to me.

Third point, I think the point is that ship part production SHOULD be the best way to make money. Think about it, wouldn't the parts needed for ships (and ships themselves) be extremely profitable in space? Why is that broken? Isn't it a choice to choose whether to trade in those things or not? This is something which could easily be changed though just by playing around with buy/sell prices.

Fourth point, I guess a separate production line that focuses on ship part weapons alone would be sufficient. I haven't really looked at these aspects of the mod in a long time.

Fifth, not sure what you mean here. Are you asking why we didn't just make a specific station to only focus on 'ship parts'?

[conquestor]

I found an issue with capturing pirate tech shipyards. When captured you can't click the "Production modules" section and it immediately crashes the UI, you have to alt + tab to fix it. Also, the ship dealers become "unknown" job type, and never change faction, so if you board a shipyard, you can't actually produce any ships from it.

*Edit* Actually, I loaded my save and made peace with the station, and it seems like there's just no capital ship dealer there, only a small ship dealer who stays red when I take it over.

No idea why they have 3-4 enemy "unknown" traders though.

[Seon]

No idea why they have 3-4 enemy "unknown" traders though.

Do they have a ? icon? I've noticed some NPCs like this cropping up now and then on stations. I couldn't find any pattern to this though, as it seemed to happen everywhere.

[Marvin Martian]

@conquestor
Had you used latest build or an older one?
The production issue is an vanilla UI Problem and may solved with „Improved Object Menue“ latest or upcomming patch - anyway NF have a workaround, that should solve this too

Do you have set a new Manager at the Station? With this action Shitrader may set