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Post by Ketraar » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 16:25

Killjaeden wrote:ES seems to me to be quick to dismiss existing game mechanic in favor of another - instead of exploring it more deeply or merging it together.
I think you are being unnecessary unfair here. You are make a character judgement based on little information. The appropriate way would be to ASK why the decision was made and on what it was based, rather then assuming they just jumped the gun with no thought about about it. This type of character attack is starting to be rather annoying, we are talking about people that do this for a living, pretty sure they think about the way they want to do it, you can still disagree.

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Post by Killjaeden » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 16:35

Ketraar wrote:I think you are being unnecessary unfair here.
It is the impression i get based on the information i have. Even if i would ask, you know it is unlikely i would get a more detailed answer - they would refer me to the answer i got from the video.

And i can tell you why i have this particular impression as well-
They have not provided a good answer for example why they did remove SETA in XR initially for example. The explanation they gave us back then in development was extremely simple to challenge. They said something along the lines that SETA was a hack/cheat to reduce travel time, so they replaced it with highways. Except it was not the whole story and extremely easy to challenge this view - because players did use it exclusively for shortening travel but to speed up the game progress in general. And others and myself have mentioned it repeatedly during XR development/presentations.

So this suggests to me that they have not explored it far enough before deciding to remove it.

And to me this seems like a very similar situation. Yes JD beeing overly powerfull in and easy shortcut in X3, but as i wrote - there are many many ways to shape existing mechanics to integrate better from game mechanics standpoint and from lore-integrity way. Yes i make assumptions, but they are not unfounded.

If they would like to provide a more detailed answer to this topic i would be eager to hear it. Maybe i am the one who doesn't see all the things that a JD mechanic makes bad.
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Post by Ketraar » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 17:47

Well Owen did answer it in the video, as they wanted to keep some strategic value. My read is that the switch from being able to warp anywhere was a major issue I had in X3 games, the universe gets small if you can jump anywhere at any time with anything.

looks to me that allowing players to quickly "jump" to action using this new teleportation thingy but not being able to take your uberdestroyer2.0 with you, seem to be like a good balance, as it allows for those that want to get into action but sill add some sense of strategy. This is exactly the right choice to make as it will appeal to the widest audience while still being balanced.

Now you have to THINK where you leave your assets and plan ahead. This is great new, even though I personally would have been much harsher and have a lot more restrictions, but I understand not everyone approaches the game as hardcore as I do.

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Post by Killjaeden » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 17:59

Ketraar wrote:Well Owen did answer it in the video, as they wanted to keep some strategic value. My read is that the switch from being able to warp anywhere was a major issue I had in X3 games, the universe gets small if you can jump anywhere at any time with anything.
Please read my initial post again. Yes i agree this is an issue. But it does not justify axing the jumpdrive, because you can do so much more with jumpdrives (from game design standpoint) that allows you to integrate it well and yet still achieve the same thing they are after -> more important strategic placement and having territory matter.

In addition (assuming you would have interdiction stations or ships) it would mean that in a military conflict, one could try to focus on these stations as targets to allow your reinforcement to jump in quicker (still have to get to battle sight because they spawn at gate). The defender does not have this issue, he can jump in reinforcements right from the start. And again - jumping can be much more limited than what it was in X3 in many different ways to not make it a no-brainer.

Let's take Stellaris for example. There are 3 different FTL methods. And you can choose which method(s) you allow in a specific game. I limited mine to hyperlanes, which is very similar to X3 gate system - except gates dont exist physically. So you are always bound to special travel lanes, and you can't just skip a sector, however the time it takes between entering a 'gate' and arriving at the new sector is extremely short (almost instant). This means strategic placement (like Owen mentioned) is very important.

In the endgame you had the possibility to aquire the rare technology of Jumpdrives (or warp drives) - they allow you to jump anywhere. However, they are very different to hyperlanes. To engage jumpdrive you have to fly very far to the edge of the system (similar to X3 sector). Then it takes a while to wind up. The transit time "in FTL" to the destination is also very long, compared to hyperlanes / X3 inter-sector-travel. And when arriving, you also come in very far from the center of the sector, plus your warpdrive has to cool down - your ship is vulnerable for a while. So in many cases, a fleet using hyperlanes was actually much faster and nible than one with warpdrive. Also - ships could only have one FTL method or the other - not both, so you had to decide what you want to use. I found this dynamic to be extremely interesting. And again - this is only one example how it's possible to integrate both types of travel and make both interesting to use and gives you something to think about when creating your fleet and using it in action.
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Post by CBJ » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 18:17

Killjaeden wrote:They have not provided a good answer for example why they did remove SETA in XR initially for example. The explanation they gave us back then in development was extremely simple to challenge.
Unfortunately the reality is that no answer is going to be considered a "good answer" if the reader doesn't happen agree with the decision. Pretty much every design decision comes with a whole range of value judgements; we have to weigh the inputs up against one another, assigning priorities and balancing gameplay upsides against downsides, development costs against benefits, and the opinions of one group of players against those of another. Every such decision can be "challenged" by giving different weights to the various inputs, or indeed simply dismissed as lies or incompetence, as also tends to happen depressingly often even on a relatively civilised forum such as this one. This is one reason why developers tend not to spend much time trying to explain design decisions in public.

However, in this case I will give it a go, and we'll see whether the explanation is considered "good" or just dismissed!

In a game like this, the universe needs to feel "big" otherwise it doesn't feel much like a space game. However, while sitting looking at the universe pass by can be really enjoyable for a while, most players don't actually want to do this indefinitely; they want to get to the action reasonably quickly. Now of course these two fundamental goals are actually contradictory, and they are not the only contradiction. Players want the game to be tactical, with variation in the universe, importance placed on where resources are gathered, and where stations are built and where fleets are stationed, yet they don't want to spend precious gaming time travelling between different parts of their empire. They want there to be dangers, yet they also don't like it being too hard to get to their trading ships quickly to protect them. The list goes on.

Both SETA and jumpdrives are solutions to some of these problems, but both of them are "blunt instruments". We didn't initially implement them in XR because we wanted to see if we could find better, more subtle, ways to achieve the same results. Highways and engine boosters were the main tools for this, but there were mixed reactions to the highways (not helped by some design issues in early versions which made them less enjoyable to use than they should have been). Boosters proved more widely popular, with the possible exceptions of our chosen "cost" for use, namely the shields, but came with the downside that the player would tend to spend more time in empty space, not seeing any other traffic.

However, neither of these solutions addressed one key player scenario, namely the situation where the player really does just want to allow more time to pass, for example to allow production or station-building to complete. We had hoped that players would be too busy doing other things to be too bothered about not being able to accelerate time, but it turned out that that wasn't the case. With no better alternative solutions to that particular problem in sight (and with the functionality to accelerate time already available in the game for development purposes) we decided to restore SETA. That remains the situation with SETA as we work towards X4, and I will leave discussion of SETA at that.

Jumpdrives were popular, but they pretty much completely destroyed both the feeling of size, and the tactical, territory-controlling element of the game. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of their effect (jump target limitations, range limitations, fuel cost) but none of them remove the fundamental problem that you cannot place an obstacle in the way of an invading fleet in an interesting way. Note that adding another gameplay mechanism to prevent jumpdrives being used doesn't really count as interesting for these purposes; it just stops the jumpdrive from being useful, making it redundant. So, thinking again about which features of a jumpdrive we wanted in the game, and which we didn't, we realised that there were two separate scenarios. One was getting a ship or fleet from A to B, and the other was getting the player from A to B so that they could be "in on the action".

For the first scenario highways have a place, allowing ships in densely-populated areas to move quickly. This not only makes sense logically, in the same way that roads and motorways make sense in busy areas, but it also helps with the perception of how busy such an area is since a player travelling along through the area will see more ships. In less populated ares, ships would still be able to use boost drives, and the player not seeing so many of them would help create the corresponding more empty atmosphere.

That leaves the player case. In particular it leaves the case of the player being frustrated to see their ships being attacked on the far side of the universe, but having no means to get there and apply their skills to try and save the situation. Allowing them to jump in at will with a fleet is too overpowered and takes away any real danger, but allowing them to be there in person and maybe try and fly the ship to safety, or perhaps man a hero escort ship and fend off the enemy single-handed, makes for good, exciting gameplay. That's where teleportation comes in, and I'm sure you can work out numerous other possibilities it brings up.

One final thing for those saying that jumpdrives "can't" be removed because it "doesn't make sense" from a lore perspective: I'm afraid that argument is back to front. The lore needs to be made to fit the gameplay, not the other way around.

Now, I'm sure you will read through this and say "yes, but...." and come up with some counter-argument that you feel supports your view that jumpdrives should stay, and of course you are entitled to your opinion. However, please don't try to claim that we didn't think through the decision, nor that we just "threw away" something that you liked without considering it properly. We have thought about it very carefully, and who knows? Maybe the fact that we came to a different conclusion to the one you would perhaps have come, might even mean that it wasn't us who missed something important. ;)

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Post by lostProfitssssArrgh » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 18:19

The one absolutely necessary thing the jumpdrive addressed was the elimination of tedious transit delays. However, over time it became just too great an advantage for the player in both trade and war, especially after fleet management was added (group jump and resupply). MLCC and the likes, while being awesome additions, just took this way beyond OP.

Using a person transporter takes care of the transit aspect while removing the possibility for abuses the jumpdrive offered. It's definitely a tough, and risky, design choice. I find proposed solution interesting, if not elegant. Let's see how it pans out.

(EDIT: got sniped by CBJ, lol)

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Post by Graaf » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 18:31

Ketraar wrote:Now you have to THINK where you leave your assets and plan ahead. This is great new, even though I personally would have been much harsher and have a lot more restrictions, but I understand not everyone approaches the game as hardcore as I do.
Yeah, but now your hardcore play-style is being forced upon everyone else. Its the same bad approach they designed Rebirth on.

If they just keep the original design of the Jumpdrive it would only allow us to lock on to a gate (not many of those around). Maybe even add the restriction of an XRM-Mod to only allow them on a XL-cargo ship (yes, I'm using proper X3 definitions).

Ketraar wrote:looks to me that allowing players to quickly "jump" to action using this new teleportation thingy but not being able to take your uberdestroyer2.0 with you, seem to be like a good balance, as it allows for those that want to get into action but sill add some sense of strategy.
But what is the point in teleporting to the action area if it is a minimal defended freighter that is in need of the firepower of my uberdestroyer2.0? What is the point of have a choice what ship to pilot when I can't bring my personal ship along to the combat area?


Personally, to me it looks like they are sacrificing yet another key feature because they want Teleportation and Walking.

Ketraar wrote:This is exactly the right choice to make as it will appeal to the widest audience while still being balanced.
Its not a balance, its yet another limitation.
And exactly who are in this widest audience?

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Post by Killjaeden » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 18:39

First, thank you for taking your time for a detailed reply. I appreciate it.
Second - i edited my post above yours - it may be interesting to read (example how other games solved it).
So, thinking again about which features of a jumpdrive we wanted in the game, and which we didn't, we realised that there were two separate scenarios. One was getting a ship or fleet from A to B, and the other was getting the player from A to B so that they could be "in on the action".
There is Scenario C - getting access to an area you could not access in any other way.
Currently i play X3 (XTC mod) as pirate. I'm hostile to Argon, Boron, Paranid, Terrans. Since in XTC the sector owners are not as intermingled as in vanilla, there is a large area Argon sector group, a large area boron, etc.
Obviously this shrinks my play area quite a lot. Without a jumpdrive i couldn't even operate in the the second sector beyond the first border sector, as the sector defense forces are much more responsive and vigilant.
self-inflicted, yes. And the X3 JD is overly powerfull - yes to that too (again). Despite that, i limit myself to sectors close to their border. Why? Because the logistics to sustain a present deep in their territory is _despite_ having overly powerfull jumpdrive is very challenging, especially when trying to gain something from them (ships, cargo, ...)

However- this has ramifications to your sandbox as well. If a player has messed stuff up and is hostile to another race. And the race's military response is adequate to deal with invading hostile ships (because it needs to if the economy should not suffer dramatically from even simple raids), then their entire space in the universe will turn into a no-go zone, until you can remove the enemy by force.

In RTS this is called turtling. At somepoint you can't just pass by. You have to go into the front gate and smash it. This is where limited jumpdrive is usefull. It doesnt even have to lock on gates. It could be beacons as well.
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Post by ADAM79 » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 18:59

CBJ wrote:
Killjaeden wrote:They have not provided a good answer for example why they did remove SETA in XR initially for example. The explanation they gave us back then in development was extremely simple to challenge.
Unfortunately the reality is that no answer is going to be considered a "good answer" if the reader doesn't happen agree with the decision. Pretty much every design decision comes with a whole range of value judgements; we have to weigh the inputs up against one anoth...
After that... i can say only one thing: CBJ for president! :D

And... imho, removing the JD in favor of the Teleport is a VERY GREAT gameplay enhancement!!! Great job! ;)

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Post by Spaceman Sublime » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 19:03

back on that topic of the other common use of SETA being to speed up construction, there are alternatives to that too, such as more drones assigned being able to finish a job quicker, or a more highly skilled architect being able to coordinate a work crew more efficiently, or assigning a larger workforce to construction. there are endless ways to solve this problem and remove the blunt tool that was SETA from gameplay.

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Post by Santi » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 19:16

@Killjaeden

Not really getting the reasoning there, I may be misreading you so take that into account.

I do not think a modded game like the one you put an as example for the Jump Drive inclusion should be taken into consideration by the Devs. Not your individual or current style of play.

If you turn a whole faction into a no go zone, then you have to deal with that, if you are a pirate that is the logical difficult progression. You steal and board, till you become well known and you are hunted down with ever more assets till you are obliterated.

So plan ahead, steal and board here and there, build your forces up, hide your strength, and when the times comes, take over what is rightfully yours.

For that, you do not need a Jump Drive.
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Post by -Dna- » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 21:14

At least give the Jumpdrive only to Xenon capital ship, so we can hate them (and you :lol: ).

I understand the motivations explained by CBJ and I'll give it a try. Seeing what the HoL DLC added to XR, I'm happy to know that if something doesn't work out as planned, the Jumpdrive has some remote probability to return in the X-Universe. Perhaps, in a distant future... in another galaxy far, far away...
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Post by Staja Bepon » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 21:40

I could care less about the jumpdrive and i use the hell out of it. I just want to play the game, looks like its going to be great and different

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Post by Killjaeden » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 21:57

Santi wrote:I do not think a modded game like the one you put an as example for the Jump Drive inclusion should be taken into consideration by the Devs. Not your individual or current style of play.
XTC is much more similar to X4 than X3 vanilla to X4. Because there are active sector response forces to deal with trouble makers efficiently. In addition, the coherent space ( neighbouring sectors) a race occupied is much much much larger than in vanilla. In X4 the space is also larger than in X3 from what i remember thems saying. So there are a few parallels, and this is the reason why i made this comparison. Also Stellaris and other RTS hammered it home to me. Predefined pathways combined with military conflicts can lead to stalemate situations where no side can push through, and where no side can get any access to the other ones space, and force the player to keep in a certain area for a long time.
Wether you see it as a problem or not depends on your opinion - i say that in certain situations it can become a quite noticeable problem.The average player may not even realize why, but if he is stuck in this situation for a long time, sooner or later he will lose interest.
As a game designer you should consider what effect your gameplay decisions have on the rest of the game. And you should be able to recognize commonalities and general concepts. What i said about my modded game is anecdotal example to what happens when 1) the sector defense forces are much more active and responsive to prevent the quite vulnerable dynamic economy to collapse from a few raids 2) there are only fixed routes and access points to the sectors.

Making hostiles everywhere in this case is my own choice and fault - indeed. But such concious decisions are not the only cases where a race can become hostile. Not all cases are wanted by the player. A plot (e.g. AP) and also a gamestart can force hostility. Additionally - seeing that the player may get involved in wars or caught between one, a race or faction might decide to go hostile to him on their own accord. Who knows. It would be interesting for sure... by saying "no, a faction only goes hostile when the player chooses to" you would already enforce strict limits on the dynamic nature of the universe.

In X3 vanilla this "locked space" was not a huge biggie, because despite some Boron warning "with regret, we will now obliterate your ship" you didn't have to fear much, because you could travel through their sectors unimpeded in many cases, unless you where in a core sector or stumbled upon one of the rare capital patrols by chance. And you didn't have to travel through a lot of space to pass into another races space. In some cases it was just 2-3 small sectors even, sometimes just one.

I'm not trying to imply that JD is the only solution for this potential issue or that it is THE reason why JD should remain. But it is one to consider - one that i do not think Egosoft have had on their radar yet (assumption). And if i would be correct in that, it would highlight the value of developers giving more detailed reasoning and reading and thinking about community replies that challenge their outlined ideas and concepts.

In addition, when you are seeing the JD only as a means to solve a specific problem (travel time) then you are limiting yourself creatively. One FTL method is enough to solve that problem. And yet there are 3(+1) FTL methods in Stellaris. Why? Because they each offer different challenges and different gameplay options. They force the player to make tactical and strategical decisions during fleet planning and during combat. Should i equip all ships with warpdrive, so that they can jump everywhere in theory but are slower over shorter distances and require jump costs? Or should i only equip a small special strike group with them, to create diversions or achieve special goals? When they are properly balanced it creates a very interesting dynamic.
As Egosoft chose to use a teleporter to warp the player they have the opportunity to make it so that Jumpdrives are not insta teleports, but instead cause transit times depending on distance. Heck, some players might even enjoy traveling like that personally alot, when they can manage their assetts during transit.
Also the suspense when you fly with your fleet in "FTL- transit" to some giant space battle... you can't tell me that this isn't something that gives the game atmosphere. Star Wars has it. I'm sure other scifi IP's have similar things... Including Interdictor Star Destroyers for the purpose of preventing free hyperspace travel. They are relatively weak, so it create a an interesting dynamic. That's one more combat utility shiptype that is very usefull but has to be protected and doesn't purely provide raw firepower.
CBJ wrote:Unfortunately the reality is that no answer is going to be considered a "good answer" if the reader doesn't happen agree with the decision.
Depends on what you consider "good". I consider "good" a well argumented answer, that makes sense and isn't full of holes. If the answers are one liners it doesn't really help. Especially such changes to core features/mechanics compared to previous titles i feel deserve more elaboration about why it was changed, what thoughts went into it. Opinions are opinions and this will not change. But if you just throw it at the players/fans feets and expect all to swallow it without questioning that is unreasonably optimistic. Especially from observant and analytical people that are generally attracted to this kind of game... You giving more insight will require less (at times wildly out there) speculation on our parts to make a sense of what you do and why you do it... And also less provocation on our part to get a response to our answers. There is a happy medium and there are quite a few examples of developers - big and small - that manage it quite fine.
CBJ wrote:One final thing for those saying that jumpdrives "can't" be removed because it "doesn't make sense" from a lore perspective: I'm afraid that argument is back to front. The lore needs to be made to fit the gameplay, not the other way around.
Well... this depends entirely on what game you design. If you want to design an immersive game and draw the player in, such 'plot follows function' approaches can break immersion quite easily. And if you want to build upon a universe/ IP, throwing out core concepts with every iteration, because some other concept seemed like the holy grail at the time will not help. Especially not, when JD's , teleporter and highways are not mutually exclusive at all.
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Post by Xenon_Slayer » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 22:39

Now on YouTube!

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Post by Tamina » Thu, 28. Sep 17, 23:43

Xenon_Slayer wrote:Now on YouTube!
Attack minions!
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:D

Thanks for the heads up and thanks to Egosoft. Makes me really excited for X4!
I hope that you can show us some live gameplay next time. :D
Did you use video playback to show us different aspects of the game faster or because the game is not in a stable state for a livestream yet or both?

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Post by Falcrack » Fri, 29. Sep 17, 00:06

Thanks for the write-up CBJ! Very informative. One issue you brought up, that jumpdrives removed tactical considerations of territory, is very true. If you can just jump anywhere, then positioning of your factories and important resources is trivial.

But, what about this. Instead of eliminating the jumpdrive altogether, why not make far fewer jumpgates? You could use a jumpdrive to jump to a limited number of available gates, but due to their scarcity, you would have to also use other means to get around (transorbital accelerators, highways, and boosting). Jump gates, because they are scare, could be heavily defended points to prevent invading forces from entering a system, but once in a system, the scale of a huge universe could still be maintained by these slower transportation methods?

Also, limiting jumpdrives to only very large ships would help to reduce player dependence on the jumpdrive mechanic.
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Post by JSDD » Fri, 29. Sep 17, 00:06

the main difficulty is to make the game playable and to make the universe apppear "big", but not unaccessible ...


my version / suggestion:

the distance between 2 stars is too big to fly by just using the engines of a ship, so use a warp-tunnel / gate system. but not like X3 where every sector had multiple gates, just 1 gate per starsystem at the center besides the star would be enough, i think ...

the distance between 2 planets / sectors can be bridged by using a swing-by-type of accelleration on astro-objects (planet / sun / moon). just boost for a 15 seconds in direction to the nearest astro-object, and your velocity increaces "astronomically", you now are not part of the sector anymore technically, you are in-bwtween 2 sectors for the time you are travelling with "swing-by". for about 1 minute, your circle around the planet in a constant orbit, by changing the direction you decide where to break out and swing to ... boost 15 seconds in direcion to mars (while in earth orbit), you'll be there in about 20 seconds or so. when arrived, your velocity "normalizes" again, and you're now part of sector "mars" (InSector). everything around mars is relative to the planet, stations remain in ttheir relative positions etc .. maybe just some small asteroids change their relative velocity

keep the teleporter in order to keep in touch with your property / workers / traders.
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Post by Graaf » Fri, 29. Sep 17, 00:16

CBJ wrote:SETA and jumpdrives
SETA speeds up the entire game mostly for people to use to complete a task in less realtime. But not in less gametime. I don't know why it is brought up at all. It has nothing to do with the Jumpdrive.

CBJ wrote:One final thing for those saying that jumpdrives "can't" be removed because it "doesn't make sense" from a lore perspective: I'm afraid that argument is back to front. The lore needs to be made to fit the gameplay, not the other way around.

Now, I'm sure you will read through this and say "yes, but...." and come up with some counter-argument that you feel supports your view that jumpdrives should stay, and of course you are entitled to your opinion. However, please don't try to claim that we didn't think through the decision, nor that we just "threw away" something that you liked without considering it properly. We have thought about it very carefully, and who knows? Maybe the fact that we came to a different conclusion to the one you would perhaps have come, might even mean that it wasn't us who missed something important. ;)
Yes, but...

How did Kyle and Elena ever make it to the X-Universe? And was Terracorp not founded by Kyle to re-engineer the Jumpdrive to get back to Earth? And since Terracorp still exists in Rebirth, wouldn't that mean Jumpdrives do to? Not to mention the original design came from a Xenon vessel.

Your statement basically nullifies the entire X-serie, just like Trump nullified the American Revolution.

CBJ wrote:Jumpdrives were popular, but they pretty much completely destroyed both the feeling of size, and the tactical, territory-controlling element of the game. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of their effect (jump target limitations, range limitations, fuel cost) but none of them remove the fundamental problem that you cannot place an obstacle in the way of an invading fleet in an interesting way. Note that adding another gameplay mechanism to prevent jumpdrives being used doesn't really count as interesting for these purposes; it just stops the jumpdrive from being useful, making it redundant. So, thinking again about which features of a jumpdrive we wanted in the game, and which we didn't, we realised that there were two separate scenarios. One was getting a ship or fleet from A to B, and the other was getting the player from A to B so that they could be "in on the action".
1.) The tactical, territory-controlling element? AFAIK, there is only 1 piece of territory we can control in either TC or AP, unless we use mods. And I don't think we ever needed to be tactical about that. TBH I don't really know what it has to do with the Jumpdrive.
2.) As said in an earlier reply, what is the point in teleporting just the player to the "action" if he can't take his personal ship with him? Rebirth was designed so you could only be one ship and have no choice about which one it is. But now that we do get the choice which ship we want to be, we can't take it with us when we most need it?
3.) While you don't want to put a range limitation on the Jumpdrive, you do want to put one on the Teleporter from the start? Why not just keep the Jumpdrive and give that a range limitation? Why not only allow it to jump to Jumpgates, like X2 (a lore-friendly solution)?

CBJ wrote:In a game like this, the universe needs to feel "big" otherwise it doesn't feel much like a space game.
My first suggestion would be that if you want to have a "big" universe you should make sure X4 starts with the roughly 200 systems we had in X3. Preferably more.

CBJ wrote:However, while sitting looking at the universe pass by can be really enjoyable for a while, most players don't actually want to do this indefinitely; they want to get to the action reasonably quickly. Now of course these two fundamental goals are actually contradictory, and they are not the only contradiction. Players want the game to be tactical, with variation in the universe, importance placed on where resources are gathered, and where stations are built and where fleets are stationed, yet they don't want to spend precious gaming time travelling between different parts of their empire. They want there to be dangers, yet they also don't like it being too hard to get to their trading ships quickly to protect them. The list goes on.
Rebirth's systems were designed to accommodate the players that complained that X3's systems where too small. And now you are complaining about the systems being too big to easily transfer through to the action? Again this is not a Jumpdrive problem. Nor a SETA problem.
This is a design decision that backfires. It was too easy to respond in X3 when using a Turbo-Boosted Springblossom, but due to system sizes its too hard in Rebirth ... and X4.

CBJ wrote:That leaves the player case. In particular it leaves the case of the player being frustrated to see their ships being attacked on the far side of the universe, but having no means to get there and apply their skills to try and save the situation. Allowing them to jump in at will with a fleet is too overpowered and takes away any real danger, but allowing them to be there in person and maybe try and fly the ship to safety, or perhaps man a hero escort ship and fend off the enemy single-handed, makes for good, exciting gameplay. That's where teleportation comes in, and I'm sure you can work out numerous other possibilities it brings up.
The only thing I can think of is that every ship will have a few escorts which will all be copies of the Player ship. Therefor the Local Star Cluster (I'm sorry, I can't call 8 systems a Universe) will be filled with Uberdestroyer2.0's.


**I'm sure we were told that Egosoft was working on a real X4. Just like the name of the forum and yesterdays presentation. Yet we still do not get back the Borons because they prefer to keep Walking a priority. And now the removal of Jumpdrive, which again is in favour of Walking (by Teleporting). Why do I still keep the feeling this is going to be Rebirth 2 in disguise?

Sparky Sparkycorp
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Fri, 29. Sep 17, 01:03

Graaf in 2015 wrote: Look, I almost exclusively fly small transports in X3. I have no interest in flying fighters.
Graaf in 2016 wrote: I spend almost all my time in X3 flying Transports (TS/TP-class) trading between stations.
Graaf in 2017 wrote:
Ketraar wrote: Disussing strategic aspects of the loss of jumpdrives.
Maybe even add the restriction of an XRM-Mod to only allow them on a XL-cargo ship (yes, I'm using proper X3 definitions).
What would be the rationale for allowing only X3 TS-style ships to use jumpdrives in X4?
Last edited by Sparky Sparkycorp on Fri, 29. Sep 17, 01:12, edited 1 time in total.

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