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HaradaTaro
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Post by HaradaTaro » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 18:27

First the multi ship is back great.

+I don't care if highways are in or out.
+No need to lose time on multiplayer X serie is a SOLO game.
+graphics looks greats
+Being able to make your own statin the way you want seems great. I wonder if there will be a limit in size.

Fears:

- From what I saw once again like in X-rebirth we are flying a cockpit and nothing else. The rest of the ship doesn't exist... no hitbox and yo will beable to go nearly every where withoin tiny space as long as the cockpit fits in no matter if the rest of the ship is way too big.
-No word said on industry line and ship building... I guess it will be the old ship magically popping out from no where as much as wares...

Questions :

No words have been said about sector management.... I really hope this time we the palyer will be able to claim, capture sector and manage them.
But once more I think the worse and it wont be in.

And last FOR GOD SAKE

NO ONE CARES ABOUT WALKING AROUND and in stations Stop losing time with that.

Thanks and have a good day all.

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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 18:29

What? The ship was always modeled in XR, and there's every indication it will be in X4 as well. Your guns were even physically modeled and the shots came from different spots. Drones popped out of the drone hatch. Etc.

And one of the specific points made in the presentation is that they want ships all built using the economy rather than spawned, presumably to the extent that is practical. Missions also will ideally use existing assets rather than spawned assets whenever possible.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

HaradaTaro
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Post by HaradaTaro » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 18:37

It was modeled that all but it has no hit box so you could go with the skunk through tiny passge where the cockpit xould go through but not the ship.
Same in the presentation the guy who made some piloting went many times so close to station/building that it was blatant only the cockpit existed in term of hit box because the ship had a long nose and the cockpit was behind still he went to cockpit nearlit hitting the station walls meaning that if it was real half of the ship would already have crashed into the station.

aquatica
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Post by aquatica » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 18:38

I understood that the ship building will be from ground up and real. You need resources and components to build a ship and it will take time to get it done.

I also understood that you can own a shipyard (I think you can in XR too? Never got that far...) and build those ships on your own, if you wish.
Now what I *really* am looking forward:

To take over trade. All of it. Everywhere.
I mean that *I* and my Empire will own everything that produces anything from the most basic materials to ships. I'd love to saturate the market and kill competition. And claim the places where that happens.
Find an empty sector or area, claim it for myself and build an empire to Rule The Space.

Oh, how about Jump beacons? I would love to be able to make those...

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Post by linolafett » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 19:20

HaradaTaro wrote: Fears:

- From what I saw once again like in X-rebirth we are flying a cockpit and nothing else. The rest of the ship doesn't exist... no hitbox and yo will beable to go nearly every where withoin tiny space as long as the cockpit fits in no matter if the rest of the ship is way too big.
Just answering this one, as its already a not that simple topic.

ARTIST ANSWER; MAY CONTAIN TECHNICIALLY INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE SUBJECT.
I try to answer with the best of my limited understanding, dont take it as 100% correct! Please.

In rebirth the skunk was rotated around the cockpit, because at the time it was deemed unacceptable to have a rotation origin far away (behind) the player. That felt off with the very quick rotationspeed of the ship.
The skunk had a collisionsphere around the cockpit for the same reason.

In X4 we use the ship origin (usually center of mass) to rotate around.
As the ships are less agile and m ships even much bigger, you have more time to adapt to the offset of the player position and the origin of rotation.

Which collisionmesh is used for playership collisions depends on the context.
In most of the cases the rule "smaller object will use boundingbox for collision, bigger object will use main geometry for collision".
Why? Performance reasons.

An example would be:
You sit in an ship and collide with a station.
In that case your ship collision is simplified with a bounding box.
Result: You may not fit into areas which visually would work, this is very rare with small ships though.
You also collide with sttaionparts with the back of your ship, or parts of your ship which are left/right of your cockpit. some ships have very extreme cockpit positions and you have to get used to each ships size.

Hope that helps to get rid of your concerns regarding origin of rotation and collision.
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Skeeter
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Post by Skeeter » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 19:32

Collision bounding box's for small ships is a bad idea its what was used in homeworld 1 I believe as I used to mod ships for it. In home world 2 they used skin tight collision detection by duplicating the ship and using that albeit a low poly version for performance reasons. Much better so things didn't bounce off each other if near something else AFAIK. Plus hit effects could be much more near the ships hull so firing on ships looked better and other reasons I'm provably forgetting, oh maybe pathing was it too I think.

Just my few words on that bit of the post, based on modding space games In the past.
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Tamina
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Post by Tamina » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 19:40

Skeeter wrote:Collision bounding box's for small ships is a bad idea its what was used in homeworld 1 I believe as I used to mod ships for it. In home world 2 they used skin tight collision detection by duplicating the ship and using that albeit a low poly version for performance reasons. Much better so things didn't bounce off each other if near something else AFAIK. Plus hit effects could be much more near the ships hull so firing on ships looked better and other reasons I'm provably forgetting, oh maybe pathing was it too I think.

Just my few words on that bit of the post, based on modding space games In the past.
He is talking about the player controlled ship, only, I believe.

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linolafett
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Post by linolafett » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 19:42

Skeeter wrote: Plus hit effects could be much more near the ships hull so firing on ships looked better
Bullet impacts follow the same rule (i think).
Small thin bounding box, bigger thing hull. Therefore bullet impacts are at the right place.
at least this is what is see, maybe there is something else used for bullet impact detection, i can just see, that they impact at the ship surface and do not get stuck somewhere in space.
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aquatica
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Post by aquatica » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 19:50

I hope we'd really get skin-detected collisions. That is common practice elsewhere, but if Ego can't get the performance numbers to work with it then fine, let it be something else.

Just would like to point out that AFAIK there are those games (albeit higher budget with more devs doing the work) that have highly accurate collision detection, mostly done from the skin or model - at least nearby.

Anyone remember "Blockhead"-High-FPS models for Counter-Strike 1.6 back in the day? The actual hit box was not that of the actual original model, but closer to this raw "blocky" version of the models. It was simply put several squares filling roughly the intended areas - this might work in X4 as well?

If performance truly is an issue, it could be simple - IF the game engine supports it in the first place!
A ship might have few collision points to roughly go by the actual model: both wings, maybe weapons and then core components or other objects that are "away from the main parts". As an example, X3's Nova would have 3 hitboxes: one for the fuselage, one for each wing. Shouldn't be too complex...

And this is of course not knowing at all how collision detection works. If it's too rough, its no good. If it's highly accurate (imagine HAVOC with full modelling of the human body as hitpoints... Now *that* is accurate at it's worst!) it WILL be intensive for hardware... Finding the balance could be the issue.

PS.
Wasn't that one of the key reasons why X2's last mission was so overwhelmingly CPU-intensive? A lot of Terran guns blazing and as each and every one of the bullets were followed separately, and there were hundreds if not thousands around at the same time, many then-good PC's were very, very much struggling...

lostProfitssssArrgh
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Post by lostProfitssssArrgh » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 20:20

linolafett wrote: In most of the cases the rule "smaller object will use boundingbox for collision, bigger object will use main geometry for collision".
Why? Performance reasons.
Hmm. I'll be that guy and flag a "limited technical understanding" on that one. I don't see how testing for intersections on a full mesh (wild guess : 100k polygons) can be faster than testing a box with 6 polygons... Well, the main mesh could be split into different sub sections (more draw calls), or use a lower res proxy mesh reduced to blocky outlines of the ship (don't fly too close to those rounded areas). Neither can be faster than testing a box. The only faster things than a box for testing intersections would be a tetrahedron (4 sides) or a direct distance check (ship center to ship center). Unless ES has some sweet, sweet collision algo I'd love to hear about and send me packing.

Take my observation with a grain of salt, YMMV etc... IANAP

-lpa

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spankahontis
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Post by spankahontis » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 20:56

What i've seen with Star Citizen is that specific parts of the ship when impacting with say.. An asteroid causes that part of the ship to tear apart, even become sheered off.
But Star Citizen are under no illusions of their game being for high end machines.
So I can get a general idea of how you make something half as good as that for as little resources as you need to spend on that.
X games cater to the average specs, while SC is going all out.
There must be a way? Or a sacrifice for PC performance has to be made which people here need to accept.

lostProfitssssArrgh
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Post by lostProfitssssArrgh » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 21:34

I'd guess the tearing effect you see in SC is actually pre-calculated : you have a 'clean' version and a 'torn' version of each part of the ship and when the collisions occurs, the geometry morphs from one to another until the piece is detached (also likely to be a different mesh swapped-in at the right time).

That being said, I haven't seen the SC video, just working from past experience here.

But in general, and especially with 64-bit computers, if you can save a lot a processor time by storing prefabricated stuff in RAM, that's what you're going to see.

HaradaTaro
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Post by HaradaTaro » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 21:39

linolafett wrote:
HaradaTaro wrote: Fears:

- From what I saw once again like in X-rebirth we are flying a cockpit and nothing else. The rest of the ship doesn't exist... no hitbox and yo will beable to go nearly every where withoin tiny space as long as the cockpit fits in no matter if the rest of the ship is way too big.
Just answering this one, as its already a not that simple topic.

ARTIST ANSWER; MAY CONTAIN TECHNICIALLY INCORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE SUBJECT.
I try to answer with the best of my limited understanding, dont take it as 100% correct! Please.

In rebirth the skunk was rotated around the cockpit, because at the time it was deemed unacceptable to have a rotation origin far away (behind) the player. That felt off with the very quick rotationspeed of the ship.
The skunk had a collisionsphere around the cockpit for the same reason.

In X4 we use the ship origin (usually center of mass) to rotate around.
As the ships are less agile and m ships even much bigger, you have more time to adapt to the offset of the player position and the origin of rotation.

Which collisionmesh is used for playership collisions depends on the context.
In most of the cases the rule "smaller object will use boundingbox for collision, bigger object will use main geometry for collision".
Why? Performance reasons.

An example would be:
You sit in an ship and collide with a station.
In that case your ship collision is simplified with a bounding box.
Result: You may not fit into areas which visually would work, this is very rare with small ships though.
You also collide with sttaionparts with the back of your ship, or parts of your ship which are left/right of your cockpit. some ships have very extreme cockpit positions and you have to get used to each ships size.

Hope that helps to get rid of your concerns regarding origin of rotation and collision.
Tanks for the answer.

So Xrebirth was ****** on that as the collision box was just the cockpit. And you tell me that for X4 the collision box will NOT be restricted to the cockpit but take on merely the whole ship.

If yes that's fine because during the presentation each your presentator flew a ship he was always going really (TOO) close to station parts with out colliding and that left me with the impression "Os shit the same dumb idea than in X:R we are flying cockpits..."

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Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 21:52

@ HaradaTaro: Glad that fear seems resolved for now. The other fear of yours:
"-No word said on industry line and ship building... I guess it will be the old ship magically popping out from no where as much as wares... "

That could not be much further from the case. See this Economy post from Bernd and those same points were made in the XCon presentation and its recordings too.
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HaradaTaro
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Post by HaradaTaro » Tue, 29. Aug 17, 22:07

Alan Phipps wrote:@ HaradaTaro: Glad that fear seems resolved for now. The other fear of yours:
"-No word said on industry line and ship building... I guess it will be the old ship magically popping out from no where as much as wares... "

That could not be much further from the case. See this Economy post from Bernd and those same points were made in the XCon presentation and its recordings too.
Thanks again but Bernd only say the factions and the race will expand their universe, their space, their empire.... NOT THE PLAYER.... and that's once again my greatest fear... because in X game I just Says

"F.ck the argon, F.ck the Terran, F.ck the other nations/races. It's MY EMPIRE and I want to conquer it !"

So is it for any moderator or Egosoft employe to report and have a clear answer ? We need to know if the player will be able to claim parts of the space is own and rule it !

Thanks again.

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