Elite: Dangerous looks better already!

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Hob Anagerik
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Post by Hob Anagerik »

Chips wrote:Is humanity starting to spread to these systems what they say is going to happen in game?
That's the plan as far as I know. It's something DB was talking about while the Kickstarter was going. The idea was that new stations would get built but this wouldn't be instant. It would take time and resources to complete. During this construction phase, the station would look a bit like the unfinished Death Star, with exposed internal structures etc. Players would have the choice of helping out or hindering these efforts. Now, one of the player activities you can take part in will be exploration, discovering new systems and getting credit for that discovery. Part of that exploration is likely to be the habitation and colonisation of these new systems.
But I still say that when they start talking about hundreds of billions, they should perhaps make the game first...
But it will all be part of the game.
Nothing wrong with the idea of a spreading frontier, but making up claims of a 100 billion is just a waste of breath at this point...
It's not a made up claim, it is reality. They are going to be using procedural generation to create the galaxy. You may not know this but in the original Elite the same trick was used, but on a far smaller scale. 8 galaxies with 256 star systems in each. They were generated, on the fly, each and every time you started the game. It took about 0.5 seconds to do this. Procedural content allows you to create massive amounts of content, following some rules, very quickly. And besides the Frontier games had massive galaxies to explore and this was in 1994 so it is quite possible.
(and if they get to the stage where they've made 10,000 star systems, with a visible and easy to navigate map of the universe available - where the star systems are actually worthwhile - then great, but I harbor reservations.
We don't know yet what the galaxy map is likely to look like. But I can post a link to a screenshot that shows an in-system map. Note that this is likely place holder and is an artists impression of what it could look like, but if you look at similar artwork for the Sidewinders cockpit and compare that to Alpha footage of Elite: Dangerous then you will see they are quite close.

http://elite.frontier.co.uk/images/news ... orrery.png

If you look for some screenshots of Frontier and its galactic map, I would imagine it to be be something like that, but with a modern twist and not "flattened" like it was in those games. I don't think navigation is going to be an issue.
Game play and not getting bored shitless will be a massive issue before having a galaxy larger than that to explore.).
No more than any sand-box title. If you think about it the size of the galaxy should have no effect on whether you get bored with it quickly or not. If the game only comprised 100 star systems, the same could be true if you just don't enjoy what is presented. The fact that there will be another 100 billion or so, doesn't mean you would get bored with it quicker. The opposite should be true hopefully as there will be so much more to explore. I guess an example could be Skyrim. If you were the kind of person that got bored with that game quickly then perhaps sand box games are not for you.

EDIT: Typo and number of systems per galaxy updated.
Last edited by Hob Anagerik on Tue, 24. Dec 13, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Alee Enn
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Post by Alee Enn »

Hob Anagerik, great reply. You did what I tried to do (except I failed).

One small correction, Elite had 8 glaxies with 256 systems in each galaxy making 2048 systems in total.
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Hob Anagerik
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Post by Hob Anagerik »

That's probably where I got the 2000 from! :)
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Post by Rug »

Hob Anagerik wrote:I guess an example could be Skyrim. If you were the kind of person that got bored with that game quickly then perhaps sand box games are not for you.
Perhaps you are missing the point that I (and I believe Chips too) am/are trying to make.

Skyrim was large, but it was crafted. Things of interest were positioned throughout the landscape. It was interesting because it was built to be interesting.

Procedural generation of star systems is a very neat way of generating a large quantity of content without the need for a huge download. It doesn't necessarily produce systems that are intrinsically interesting.

The point was addressed well in your post about the multi-player's content being included as NPC stuff into the single-player game. That sounds good - simply because it becomes crafted, rather than procedural.

In case I haven't made the point quite clear, a book could be generated by a computer using procedural sentence creation. Books of 100 billion words would be easy to produce this way. It doesn't mean the books will be interesting though, does it ? Sentences created by an author will always have the edge.

Having a galaxy that is too big to explore in several lifetimes isn't a big plus for me, that's all.

@ Alien Tech: Sorry for my lamentable opinion. I will hate myself forever. :shock:

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Chips
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Post by Chips »

Rug is understanding what I am getting at.

I'm fully aware of what "procedurally generated" is going to mean. I am therefore fully aware it's possible to crank out infinite systems. I just find this all a big red herring to gameplay...

So the selling point of "we can create star systems for ever" isn't of interest. I'd be far more excited 200 systems if they're really interesting and fun to interact with - and that's what I want to hear about. Flying forever without meeting anyone through empty systems doesn't sound like a fun gaming environment...

I guess I should have just said "OMG 100 BILLION star systems? This means it's going to be the best game ever!" Hmm, perhaps that can sum up how I feel about it ;)

However, yes, the system map is very pretty. It should, of course, be expected. I'm more interested what I do in those systems. Just have to wait and watch.

Alien Tech Inc. wrote:Worst opinion ever
Meeting folks with different opinions is part of life. I try to explain my differing opinion so people may understand it as I thought I must have done a bad job (mainly as the focus seems to be upon the possibility of creating 100 billion systems). If you find that so awful, then oh well...
Last edited by Chips on Tue, 24. Dec 13, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Alee Enn
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Post by Alee Enn »

Chips wrote:Rug is understanding what I am getting at. 100 billion systems with 1 star, 3 planets and nothing else to note is... in my opinion at least - a waste of time.

Things to do matters, not number of places to do nothing.

Obviously you believe differently, that's where we differ.

I'm fully aware of what "procedurally generated" is going to mean. I am therefore fully aware it's possible to crank out infinite systems. But the statement I'd make one last time is "to what aim".

So the selling point of "we can create star systems for ever" is wholly pointless to me, it's not something I'm remotely interested in hearing. I'd be happy with 200 systems if they're really really interesting :) (I remember Elite Frontier, systems were not interesting whatsoever).

So I guess what I should be doing is going:

OMG 100 BILLION star systems? This means it's going to be the best game ever!t

Perhaps that can sum up how I feel about it being such a prominent point being made :D

However, yes, the system map is very pretty. It should, of course, be expected. I'm more interested what I do in those systems. Just have to wait and watch.

Alien Tech Inc. wrote:Worst opinion ever
We differ upon something. Its part of life. Oh well.
Chips, you are right, quality over quantity. I agree with you. You are not the only one waiting to see what Frontier will produce. However, I am familiar with other games Frontier have produced, and I have faith they are very capable of producing a great game.

And my "Worst opinion ever" comment was the only thing I could think of putting after several attempts at a reply. With your last comment, I have a better idea as to what you were saying.
Last edited by Alee Enn on Tue, 24. Dec 13, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chips »

Oh in that case, fair enough :D I'm just waiting to find out much much more about gameplay.
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Post by Hob Anagerik »

We don't really know yet. But there is a lot of speculation and assumption.

We know that there will not be station ownership, at least DB has no initial plans on this. So the only stuff you will own will be the ship you are currently flying and any other ships you have stored in stations around the galaxy. The method of switching between these I am not certain about either. It may be you have to go and visit them to swap over, or there may be some service where you ship is flown to your present dock for a fee.

There will of course be combat, trading, exploration. Asteroid mining has been discussed but nothing concrete on that front as far as I know. We don't know if the MB4 will make its return for instance!

There will be a ranking scale, all the way up to Elite, and may apply to a variety of actions such as combat, trading, military affiliation/rank.

All in all, I think the gameplay is going to be varied enough to keep most people happy for a long time. If you are a hardcore X player who enjoys these games more for the empire building and not the actual flying around and doing stuff you may be slightly disappointed, but this was never their intention so it would be unfair to construe this as a design flaw.
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Post by SteveMill »

I'd settle for a modern update of Frontier so I'm really excited by ED. The way MMO aspects can 'bleed' into your solo universe if you want sounds like it has potential.

But in the end what was great for me about these series was the complete sandbox nature. I don't want a character and a story imposed on me like XR does. I just want a basic ship, a small starting stake, a huge and very dangerous galaxy to explore and a bunch of things trying to kill me. Give me a ship and a star to steer by and I'll take it from there.

I'm a backer of ED and SC but it's ED I'm most looking forward to. Judging by the alpha game play combat streams and the comments of the testers they have nailed the combat side of things.
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Post by brucewarren »

I wonder if anyone will put up vids when the multiplayer alpha goes up.

I'm expecting an on-screen bloodbath when it does :twisted:
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Post by RegisterMe »

Has anybody actually played the alpha? Watching the vids made me wonder about combat, it seems... very chasing around / zoom and boom. Am I right or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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Post by LV »

With all the grief over RB i can honestly say i'm totally gobsmacked how they have turned beta testing into a total cash cow

Looking just now at their site i can pay £100 for the premium beta whereas the finished game appears to be £35

How the hell have they managed to sell a beta release like this?

perplexed is not the word

Going off their tactics people should be bowing at the parapet of EGO HQ and thanking them for giving people a "premium beta" for free :D
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Post by Stars_InTheirEyes »

Agreed, LV.

They sent me an email saying that to buy in to alpha access now would be around £200! Yet I get some kind of discount since I pledged to Beta during the kickstarter and can get it for the lowly price of £100...

That's not a good way of encouraging the masses to part with their money. They should take a look at Roberts, they've got people spending 100's for just in game ships of which only concept art exists...
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Post by kurush »

LV wrote: How the hell have they managed to sell a beta release like this?
The official story is that some people who are in beta were asking to get upgraded to alpha access and Frontier gave them this option. It does look as an attempt of a money grab though, probably aimed at the people who paid for X:R, got disappointed and are looking for more places to waste their cash :) In any case, I have no problems waiting until the real beta starts. It can be good or it can be a total waste of my 100 pounds. But, after waiting for Elite 4 for, like, 20 years I couldn't say no to their kickstarter.
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Post by Chips »

I'll wait for the full release. At least at that point I'll hopefully get a bug free game that i'll enjoy playing - without having made the game 'tired' and boring by the time its stable!

People want to pay huge amounts to play a beta? After all the outrage here, do they learn nothing? :lol:
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Post by Nyax »

Regarding the procedural generation: it's worth pointing out that not all content is procedurally generated. They have an override system so they can include hand crafted systems etc. For example they're using star catalogs to accurately(ish) recreate the real space around our solar system. It'll be populated with real stars in their real positions, and (where known) with their real planets.
So while the bulk of the 100 billions systems will be procedurally generated there will be a lot of hand made content as well.
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Post by Observe »

Sometimes I think procedural generation is far overrated and misrepresented. For example, a procedurally generated spaceship still has an underlying model "template" originally created in a 3D modeling program just the same as any other 3D model. The procedural part comes into play when you want to alter "on the fly" the base model in some fashion or configuration.

Some things lend themselves better to procedural generation. Planets are a good example, because a sphere is easily produced by a mathematical algorithm and "infinite" variations in clouds and terrain can be achieved without the need for a 3d model per se.

Anyway, my point is, there is a lot of undue marketing hype associated with the term, and a lot of people tend to think that a game claiming procedural generation is somehow far superior to those who don't use that technique. I grow a bit tired of the mantra of "oh wow, it's using procedural generation" mentality.

[EDIT] Nyax posted at the same time as I (or at least I went and had dinner before I got around to pushing the submit button), and he already covered the subject adequately. :)
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Post by kurush »

Procedural generation is what made Elite what it was. It cannot be overrated and I truly enjoyed those few games that actually employed it for something. I can think of just a couple: Elites, Daggerfall, Dungeon Hack. I'm not counting rogue-like things because text-based is a bit too much even for me. Also, procedural is the only way you can simulate space more or less believably. Whatever we had in X series didn't look like space to me at all. More like a fish tank with lots of algae, especially in Boron zones.
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Post by Alee Enn »

LV wrote:With all the grief over RB i can honestly say i'm totally gobsmacked how they have turned beta testing into a total cash cow

Looking just now at their site i can pay £100 for the premium beta whereas the finished game appears to be £35

How the hell have they managed to sell a beta release like this?

perplexed is not the word

Going off their tactics people should be bowing at the parapet of EGO HQ and thanking them for giving people a "premium beta" for free :D
Stars_InTheirEyes wrote:Agreed, LV.

They sent me an email saying that to buy in to alpha access now would be around £200! Yet I get some kind of discount since I pledged to Beta during the kickstarter and can get it for the lowly price of £100...

That's not a good way of encouraging the masses to part with their money. They should take a look at Roberts, they've got people spending 100's for just in game ships of which only concept art exists...
Chips wrote:People want to pay huge amounts to play a beta? After all the outrage here, do they learn nothing? :lol:
@LV Egosoft "gave" people a bugged alpha release wrapped up as a finished game and charged people £40 / €50.

All this paying to play Alpha & Beta ... blame Steam.
This isn't a rant against EVIL STEAM !!!! no, Steam started putting games up as "Early Access", basically alpha or beta versions and charged people for it, on the understanding they would help develop the game and get the full version when it was finished.

Then crowd funding took off, namely Kickstarter, and they offered Alpha and Beta Access in games as a pledge reward. This is where it got expensive, as the developers said they priced it that high otherwise they would have too many people in the Alpha process.

That is how I understand it has happened, but I might be wrong.
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Post by Alee Enn »

brucewarren wrote:I wonder if anyone will put up vids when the multiplayer alpha goes up.

I'm expecting an on-screen bloodbath when it does :twisted:
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