Any chance of a multiplayer X?

[Jumee]

it all comes down to money really, if they had enough money they would probably make/try to make an online X, but they apparently dont at the moment hence no multiplayer X

[Falcrack]

So, regardless of whether they will do it or not, I've long felt that a limited multiplayer, perhaps one where you could play cooperatively with someone, would be a lot of fun. I'll bet I could get my wife to play such a game. She would enjoy setting up factory complexes, playing the stock market, and managing the empire, while I go out and shoot stuff!

[InvrSmall]

it all comes down to money really, if they had enough money they would probably make/try to make an online X, but they apparently dont at the moment hence no multiplayer X

With their current business plan Egosoft probably don't have the funds to implement this option but a change of financial strategy could make this possible.

Is the word Think not part of the X mantra. Build, Trade, Think , Fight.

[TTD]

Being able to talk with another person about that stuff would be a lot of fun.

That can be done via DevChat (Egosoft)

or via the Steam client.

My mind went straight to the quote someone else posted,that Egosoft has always hoped they could do it some day.

There has been The SMP groups which used vanilla TC/bonus pack.
Each player possessed the game for three days before uploading the save for the next player.
The last round I was involved in had several players,each with their own base sector and surrounding sectors to operate from,plus a few other selected sectors each.
Each player had their own account funding.
Unique items like The Hub or some ships etc were shared.
Each player could trade between each other.
For example ,I would train up traders in ships or keep ships from "return ship" missions,and other players would buy them from me.

Maybe , Egosoft will implement multiplayer in some format in a much later game,but for now,after all these years,the answer is still "No!"

[Zaitsev]

Negativity surrounds this subject yet again.

It could be done but just not in the usual way. A multiplayer element for X would not have to simulate everyones universe at once. Think 'community space' where players could warp in with their current ship to chat and discuss the game and maybe even PvP in designated sectors with their ships.

How many times when you were completing the Hub plot did you have to sit twiddling your thumbs whilst waiting for the resources to be generated. In this dead time you could jump to 'community space' in your ship and hang out whilst your transport ships go about their business in the background.

This could be very helpful for new players too as if they have questions about the game they could jump to this on-line area and chat about Transport routes, Ship specs, factories and stuff.

I do believe that this could work if a bit of thought was put into it rather than the flatout no reaction that the subject always receives.

So does anyone else think this could be do-able or am I the only one in this corner ?

So far I'd go out on a limb and say you're pretty much alone. Even with only one "online" sector problems would mount pretty quickly if there are enough players in there. You still have to measure the ship's position, speed and where it's heading and update that pretty fast, unless you want to end up flying backwards or see ships that suddenly appear out of nowhere because of lag.

I crunched some numbers, and if my grossly oversimplified example is anywhere near correct you'll need roughly 20 kbit bandwith for every player you stuff into the "chatroom." That's just to find out where the nose is pointing and what their positions are relative to each other, and I'm assuming absolutely everything goes smoothly and there is no need for extra information or error correction.

That might not sound like much, until you find out you also need 20 kbit bandwith for every missile and bullet you fire.
So if you throw a PBE-wielding Chimera in there and the pilot decide to open up with everything he's got that's roughly 1 mbit bandwidth to keep track of all the bullets he's spewing out. And that's just one ship. Even if you cut the numbers by a factor of ten you quickly reach a limit for what's reasonable to expect from the player. And to top it off it needs to be as lag-free as possible.

"We proudly announce multiplayer X. Your speed is limited to 100 m/s in multiplayer sectors, your guns will fire ten times as slow, there can only be 2 players in PvP with one Buster each and you need minimum 2 mbit SDSL to be able to use it."

Somehow I don't think that will fly very well ...

[Morkonan]

IMO, most of the reasons given in regards to technical difficulties with game data in an multi-player environment are pretty much invalid. Other multi-player games, even massively multi-player ones, accomplish this handily. Updating information from "widely separated physical space" is done quite often, just not in the same detail as in single-player X3. Calculating and displaying local combat results, tracking missiles, shots fired, movement, etc.. that's all academic as well. If you have the ability to produce a multi-player game, you've already solved these issues. Arguing these points as legitimate contentions against a multi-player X3 is moot.

However, a multi-player X3 would not be "X3." It would be "X3-ish." For instance, getting sector updates on non-local sectors, in "real time", even at 5 seconds, would be problematic and bandwidth hogging. It would also not add a lot to the player's gameplay... Putting in what amounts to an "Observer Mode" feature for every sector in the game would not be worth the effort, especially since you can have compatriots there already, telling you what is going on and screaming for you to come bring your armada. Being able to see what facilities are in each sector may be possible. But, real-time satellite maps? Not worth it.

A mulit-player X3 would have limitations and would not have all the features that the current version has. Some things would have to be streamlined and a lot of flexibility would have to be thrown out the window. Players would likely be limited in their activity. They may not be able to build stations and complexes on their own. There would likely be limits on the numbers of ships they could have. Also, the game world is too small for a multi-player game as it stands now. An MMO would need to be much, much larger, to accommodate current X3 gameplay tasks. The gameplay would also have to change because of this. The idea of "sandbox play" in an MMO happens to be mutually exclusive to running a stable and predictable MMO... There are certain exceptions, but the limitations imposed on a multi-player X3 would like upset many die-hard X3 fans.

In the end, what you would get would be similar to EVE online with X3 flavors and storyline. And, since EO already exists.. well, there ya go.

Note: I think a hybrid could be accomplished, though. Something like a single-player game with elements of cooperative and competitive play could be done quite easily. A single-player game with instanced, limited, multi-player capability might work very well. For instance, saves stored online, SP games played from these and multi-player "Missions" that take place server-side, in multi-play-only sectors, including PVP and PVE. It would resemble Diablo 1/2, with a limit to how many players and the ships they could bring to the multi-play session. Even elements of economy building and persistent results could be worked in. ie: Accomplish a MP Mission and get improvements in one of your SP sectors or access to new factories, ships, weapons, etc.. Guilds, Corporations, Mercenary Companies, etc.. all could be accommodated. In fact, not long after I got X3TC, I thought quite a bit about how one could meld the two genres of SP and MP with X3. It could be a very rewarding game experience. IF Egosoft wanted to invest in this sort of thing, that is. The trick is, can one make money doing that? I'd suggest just having a front-end and require players to act as hosts for MP sessions to save on costs. But, that would limit what could be done, as well.

[zibafu]

there are ways of doing it without having a full universe.

you join the server, and pick a ship, outfit it, then you play against whomevers in the server, servers are hosted by players.

Hell you could even be funky and have to use your single player credits to buy the ship/modules in order to take part, have 30 "Lives" in the match, after that you have to buy more stuff, this would mean, in order to take part you have to upload your stats from your unmodified single player game.

or even like freelancer, I remember joining servers on freelancer, and it seemed to be just like single player, but there'd be 5 or so people, somewhere in the game, you would be doing whatever, and randomly come across them eventually.

But a simple combat multiplayer mode, single sector based would be good enough I think

[RoverTX]

Egosoft is a small company and if they wanted to make an online mode they would have to hire someone with the expertise to get things set up properly for networking and handling lag, latency, which is really no small feet and could require more then one new full time employ. Which lets face it is a strain on any company in this economy when there is no 100% sure return.

Not to mention if the game where multiplayer the game would have to be completely rebalanced, ie nerf of missiles, which might not be a boon for single player.

Though I was wondering would it be that hard to add in a split screen mode as a kind of beta test for future multiplayer? With a modern card you can get anything to run over two screens. So theoretically you could split the screens left right and have one player one one screen and another on the other. Make it a $20 DLC and just be a basic arena type set up. Player pick their ships load-outs and with some type of money limit, and just go at it. Hell I think I would pay at least $30 for that.

Edit: As other have said before you most likely wouldn't want anything integrated with the main game, because that could lead to restrictions on modding, for the purity of online balance.

[pjknibbs]

That might not sound like much, until you find out you also need 20 kbit bandwith for every missile and bullet you fire.

Have to disagree with you there. Once fired, any projectile in X has a precisely defined path--it travels at a certain speed, in a certain direction, for a certain distance. Therefore you only need to send the initial speed, heading and time of fire information over the net--the client program will be able to precisely simulate the path of the bullet.

The problem comes with the player ships, of course--they're not so predictable, and if a player takes evasive action half a second before the bullet hits, the person who fired it might see it hit his ship while the player himself does not. This is the main reason why most multiplayer games use instant-hit ranged weapons--it doesn't completely obviate this problem, but it does make it a lot better!

The other critical point here is that every time somebody puts up a poll asking about multiplayer X--and it happens fairly regularly--the results hardly show a massive majority in favour of producing such a game; in fact, you often see at least as many people voting to say they wouldn't buy or play X if it was multiplayer.

[Legionos]

the mmorpg space-sim is a very small market, one which is completely filled by EvE Online and even then EvE Online's memberbase is TINY compared to the other mmorpgs around

its simply not economically viable for egosoft

[zibafu]

The other critical point here is that every time somebody puts up a poll asking about multiplayer X--and it happens fairly regularly--the results hardly show a massive majority in favour of producing such a game; in fact, you often see at least as many people voting to say they wouldn't buy or play X if it was multiplayer.

sadly this is true, but the problem is its people who see it and just automatically yell no, without considering how it would be implemented, hell the people who yell no most of the time probably don't even read the threads fully.

anyone remember freespace 2's multiplayer, that was awesomeness, and people used to play that online on 128k modems with no problem, so an arena style deathmatch sort of game mode for online, wouldn't have major issues with todays connections I don't think.

[Morkonan]

the mmorpg space-sim is a very small market, one which is completely filled by EvE Online and even then EvE Online's memberbase is TINY compared to the other mmorpgs around

its simply not economically viable for egosoft

While I understand the point, I have to disagree with the spirit of it.

You never, ever, produce a breakout title by doing what everyone else has done. Innovation is key to attracting new customers and new customers turn into loyal old customers if you continue to push the boundaries and provide quality titles.

Now, as far as small markets go, look at which ones are "small." EO may be small, in comparison to WoW, but it has stood the test of time. It used to be that most MMORP titles would consider their "Success" point at 600k subscribers. Some have been quoted, back in the day, at being happy with 100k. But, when Blizzard stomped all over the place with WoW and turned the MMORPG world on its ear, everyone started thinking bigger. But, you don't have to be "Bigger" in order to generate a profit, keep investors happy and fund further development. It's all about the size of your house and the loyalty of your customer base.

I'm not saying Egosoft could reach such a goal or would want to. It may not be their desire to pull their hair out servicing a mini-mmo. I don't know that I'd want to do it without some deep pockets. But, that is where innovation comes in.

Look at the sci-fi titles that have "Won the game." Star Wars Galaxies, Anarchy Online, Eve Online, various "Wannabes" that, at least, made back their money and gained experience in producing titles exist as well as several others I can't remember atm.. The point is - There is a market for Science Fiction online/mmo games (SWTOR, anyone?) but there is a small market for online flight simulator combat games. Still, WWII themed offerings continue to have loyal customer bases.

But, innovation is key in "Breaking the Mold" of an undesirable environmental barrier. Diablo II is still being played and is still being supported and is still being sold on shelves everywhere and that game is TWELVE YEARS OLD! It uses sprites, for goodness sakes!

I think an "extension" of normal SP play could be added that offered some multiplayer gaming. Arena'd matches between groups of players using a point system to purchase ships, weapons and other items for their team to use would definitely be possible. These matches could be "Official" and no SP elements would be included. In fact, you could even enter the whole thing into the Competitive Gaming market. Fleets of ships firing lasers and shooting missiles at each other in ranked arena matches might have a certain appeal... It has been done before, in other genres, with a lot of success. An unstructured, client-side processed, MP variant could be offered that used SP game assets or a restricted point-total type of arrangement. (I like the idea of getting MP missions that could be done cooperatively in MP space, myself.) But, the point is - Innovation wins, same-old-same-old loses. No successful game company these days forgets the ability of their consumers to bring added-value content to their games, either. Egosoft certainly has made use of that dynamic for outsourcing content development for the X series. (Mods/Scripters) One of the things about multiplayer play is that it comes with "Free Content" in the form of players.. The developer doesn't have to code fifty-eleven different types of AI bots, complete with intranetz drama zomgz!

I don't think Egosoft is ready to try to kick CCP off it's perch. But, they don't have to. If they innovate, if they decide not to fight the enemy on their own ground, but prepare their own battlefield instead, then they can win because the ones dictating the victory conditions will be themselves and they will only be limited by their ability to please their customers. I'm sure Egosoft would be very happy to have 600,000 subscribers, paying fees or mini-fees and buying expansions every six months..

People have been stuck with the same MMO model for so long, they don't think outside of the graphical DIKU model anymore.. That is simply not necessary to have a successful game and certainly isn't required for an MMO. But, you have to beat people over the head in order to get them to see that you can break the DIKU mold and be successful if you're willing to do the work it takes to "think."

[zibafu]

only 12 years old ? damn I thought diablo 2 was much older than that

[Morkonan]

only 12 years old ? damn I thought diablo 2 was much older than that

It's one of those things you just have to keep reinstalling.. You just can't have a computer without it. So, it may "feel" older than it is. I installed it on this brand new machine, got it working with Win 7 and have been playing, infrequently, with a friend of mine as well as doing some solo stuff. But, not lately - I discovered X3!

[zibafu]

only 12 years old ? damn I thought diablo 2 was much older than that

It's one of those things you just have to keep reinstalling.. You just can't have a computer without it. So, it may "feel" older than it is. I installed it on this brand new machine, got it working with Win 7 and have been playing, infrequently, with a friend of mine as well as doing some solo stuff. But, not lately - I discovered X3!

yeah man totally, bah, might have to dig it out later

[tater-tots]

time to bring out the central computer

[ConCorDian]

imo an MMO should never be done, but i would like to see some sort of online aspect, even if its a simple select a ship and equip it and get thrown into a sector against X amount of players and have a slugfest.

just so that you could test your own flight skills against others. but in esscence the X universe should stay a singleplayer sandbox game

[CptStables]

I signed up to the forum just to add my view on the subject. After much Googling and mod-searching, I've seen quite a few threads asking about multiplayer modes for the X Universe, and you know what the first response seems to be? A load of elitist and uninformed responses of "I don't want internet kiddies destroying my glorious empire!".

You know why you don't have more people saying yes to the poll? The same reason there aren't more people playing X3; People won't sign up to the forums for a game they don't play. Having a multiplayer element will add a new dimension to the game, in that it will encourage MULTIPLE people to buy the game and play together. Of late me and my friends have bought Sins of a Solar Empire purely because of it's multiplayer ability, and were saddened to note that X3 did not, as we all agree that it's the kind of game we want- Balancing action with empire building. It's just missing the ability to actually play together.

Now, for those in the community who've stood adamantly against the idea of multiplayer, the MMO model is not the only way a multiplayer game works. Hell, it's not even the way the majority work. It goes something like this:

-Aqquire a friend
-Open Steam/Hamachi
-Open your game
-Play your game on multiplayer with your friend

None of this will end in your game being ruined, and hell it doesn't even require *that* much effort. Amateur modders have already made a basic multiplayer Skyrim mod, and had in fact got a semi-functioning one made within a month of the game's release. As mentioned before the "everything would take up too much bandwidth" is pretty insane, as plenty of online games have just as many things happening independently on screen. Regardless, a LAN or co-op game does NOT mean a thousand kids come spamming your beautifully crafted base with raids, nor does it mean that the X series is ruined/unplayable, but simply would offer a game-mode separate from the rest, which says "play with 1-3 friends".

I'm not speaking against the X-developers at all in this, I love X3 and the detail and care and well-crafted universe that was made; but felt it got stale after a week of play I realised I was literally leaving the game on overnight to autorun my trade routes. When I woke up, all I had to do was refresh my fleet and leave it on. If me and my two friends could play it together in a small fleet then Egosoft have made three sales they would not have done otherwise. I'm certain we're not the only three who would do this. An increased community would mean a larger 'footprint' on the internet, would encourage modding, and thus the shelf-life. From that, further sales are made as friends four years down the line pick up an old game and think "Hell yeah, this is what we want."


If I may sum up in the well-known phrase:
tl;dr Multiplayer increases the marketability of games. The game doesn't have to be worse. It can be the same game, but with the ability to play with people, and that can be fun. That makes the game more successful, and thus helps with the monetary issues that the company is apparently having (if these forums saying they can't afford things are to be believed).

[Cycrow]

alot of people vote no because they are more into single player games
adding multiplayer will reduce the single player part of the game.

there is only a finite amount of development time to create the game, the more time thats spent adding multiplayer, the less time is spent on single player

plus theres no guarentee that adding multiplayer is goign to dramatically increase the userbase

people who arn't into space games arn't suddenly goign to buy the game because it has multiplayer
and most of thoses that are into space games will already buy the game anyways

[nap_rz]

X multiplayer experience :

random newbie get into his buster for the 1st time, trying to cruise around the starting sector, 5 minutes later, some random more experienced player comm him and say :

exp player : "hey you!"
newb : "huh? me?"
exp player : "yes you! drop your freight or die!"
newb : "eh how do I do that?"
exp player : raaaargh....! shot the buster with his 8x HEPT on a M6....
newb : wtf is this game?

later on somewhere on the space

exp player : tralala... entering west gate... entering system... BOOM! wtf?
exp player 2 from his M7 : huahahah die you fool, nobody enter this gate safely, hence I parked my M7 right in front of the exit way... now I'm going to collect your cargo...

that's the kind of experience in X online...