[X3LU] Mayhem 3.3d

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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Hector0x » Tue, 7. Jan 20, 17:52

greymouser69 wrote:
Mon, 6. Jan 20, 21:34
2) I ran quickstart and set up the sanctuary per the video from Darth for 1MJ shield production and the distribute job will not run even though I have the required 200 shields ready, I'm just not sure if the min price is preventing it...
Maybe the Argon sector is neutral in your game and their equipment dock is missing. Do you actually see a location which would buy the shields?
in Logistics:
- "cargo load" is at "max"?
- "wait for cargo" is at "no"?
- min price is below or equal to "5.192"?
Stormbuilder wrote:
Mon, 6. Jan 20, 20:30
3) What is the average yield for Asteroids? I know Ore>Silicon>Nividium, but I am not sure what's average and what is good (for all I know, 3 Nividium might be amazing)
Ore and Silicon seem to be fairly close. I'd say 100 is too rare to be considered average. How i handle this:
120+ is great. I always spend a factory slot on this.
90+ is good. I try to build a mine but sometimes i want something else in this sector.
About 50 is roughly the minimum i go for. Used in pure mining sectors with like 8 mining stations.
Below 50 try to avoid if you have other options. (yield 50 silicon can exactly support 2 tech factories, chips, crystals, and the like)

Fun fact: Ore seems to have a yield threshold for when the factory production rises to a higher speed. I don't know the exact levels, but i have placed mines on different yield asteroids and they've shown the same ore production cycles. Silicon has an exact formula, meaning a yield 78 mine displays faster production than a yield 77 mine.

NIvidium yields are irrelevant, afaik. It may improve profits for mobile mining fleets.
Stormbuilder wrote:
Mon, 6. Jan 20, 20:30
5) Do you guys go with fighter spam early game, or do you jump straight to M6? I kinda like the idea of M6 because then I need to manage EC less for jumps.
As Panda hinted, i like fighters. Not because i wouldn't need to compensate for something, but because they are your best option to achieve impressive firepower early on. Even if capships are easier to handle, you don't get enough of these toys for a very long time. In the end i use a mix of ships. But for the love of god, i can't wrap my head around M6. Never know which weapons would be best for them. Their profile is big enough to get hit by M2's at long ranges and somehow they always end up taking hull damage before they jump out. Their price tag and building times seem to be very hefty for that. I believe this is mostly due to their relatively high speed which gets weighed in much in the ship cost calculation. They are very good playerships, but other than that i don't seem to be capable of using them very well.

I have seen some very impressive M6 MLCC swarms which layed waste to whole OCV sectors in LU. But i wager (in sector) a fighter fleet would totally wreck an equally expensive M6 fleet any day :D

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by greymouser69 » Wed, 8. Jan 20, 17:39

Hector0x wrote:
Tue, 7. Jan 20, 17:52
greymouser69 wrote:
Mon, 6. Jan 20, 21:34
2) I ran quickstart and set up the sanctuary per the video from Darth for 1MJ shield production and the distribute job will not run even though I have the required 200 shields ready, I'm just not sure if the min price is preventing it...
Maybe the Argon sector is neutral in your game and their equipment dock is missing. Do you actually see a location which would buy the shields?
in Logistics:
- "cargo load" is at "max"? - Yes
- "wait for cargo" is at "no"? - Yes
- min price is below or equal to "5.192"? - Set at 4,154
See in red above. The argon equipment dock is in Tokyo Lambda (next sector over from the sanctuary) and currently has 4,722 1MJ shields in stock so nowhere near max inventory...

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by greymouser69 » Thu, 9. Jan 20, 07:51

Ok, so I just found an Appallox for my main ship and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a weapons load out. Currently it has 6x Ion Shard Railgun in Main, 2x Energy Bolt Chaingun each in Right & Left, and 2x Pulsed Beam Emitter in Up. Still looking to find a Vulture Prototype TS to cap or scan for my DAs long term without getting the Teladi TOO mad at me and getting ready to start some boarding actions.

Also I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations/favorite templates (ship & weapons) to build a large fleet especially M3/M4. Its been a few years since I played X3 so I'm very rusty and trying to get a handle on this mod.

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Joubarbe
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Joubarbe » Thu, 9. Jan 20, 09:46

I can't recommend anything particular but these two links can help you decide:
https://deztar.github.io/x3mayhembuddy/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WFftiT ... sp=sharing

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by sataricon » Thu, 9. Jan 20, 17:27

greymouser69 wrote:
Thu, 9. Jan 20, 07:51
Ok, so I just found an Appallox for my main ship and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a weapons load out. Currently it has 6x Ion Shard Railgun in Main, 2x Energy Bolt Chaingun each in Right & Left, and 2x Pulsed Beam Emitter in Up. Still looking to find a Vulture Prototype TS to cap or scan for my DAs long term without getting the Teladi TOO mad at me and getting ready to start some boarding actions.

Also I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations/favorite templates (ship & weapons) to build a large fleet especially M3/M4. Its been a few years since I played X3 so I'm very rusty and trying to get a handle on this mod.
For weapon load out for your M6 i say Gama ray Cannons are very good.
If you can find a sirrokos M6 in the terran space you'll throw the appallox away it's a little slower but better shielded and more forward guns "i think 12".
For large swarms of M3 i go with Falcon sentinel with 8 Energy bolt chain guns each "you can manufacture the EBC and they don't need crystals".
For carriers i'd say you can't go wrong with Emeus or Tokyo.
Emeus is better offense though.

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Hector0x » Thu, 9. Jan 20, 18:35

@greymouser69: Is your DA selling now? If not it's really getting strange :?:
additional things to check:
- sanctuaries trade range at least 1? (to be able to reach Tokyo Lambda)
- satellite in Tokyo Lambda? (you should get one with quickstart)
- export threshold for 1MJ shields in Omega? (special tab in logistics)
- DA is the starting TS or a ship you've build yourself? Claimed ships could be missing equipment like best selling price locator. But being able to run the DA command at all, it should eventually start selling.


My favourite fighters (for now :) )

1) very low price/very low defense/low-medium offense:
Theseus or Elite (these are the only ones with a cost effective 25MJ shield)
equipped with Mass Driver, PAC, or IRE (very low priced, almost decent damage delivery)

2) low-medium price/high defense/medium offense:
Falcon Sentinel for supporting a very cost effective and strong 200MJ shield (this M3 is slightly OP, imho)
equipped with Energy Bolt Chaingun (low priced, almost good damage delivery)

3) medium price/low defense/medium-high offense:
Medusa for being a 3x25MJ shield fighter which can equip the PBE, also has turrets, 10 guns overall
equipped with Pulsed Beam Emitter (decent price, good damage delivery)

Anything more expensive than Mass Driver is not economical for M4.
Anything more expensive than Pulsed Beam Emitter is not economical for M3.
(my opinion)

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by greymouser69 » Thu, 9. Jan 20, 23:15

Hector0x wrote:
Thu, 9. Jan 20, 18:35
@greymouser69: Is your DA selling now? If not it's really getting strange :?:
additional things to check:
- sanctuaries trade range at least 1? (to be able to reach Tokyo Lambda)
- satellite in Tokyo Lambda? (you should get one with quickstart)
- export threshold for 1MJ shields in Omega? (special tab in logistics)
- DA is the starting TS or a ship you've build yourself? Claimed ships could be missing equipment like best selling price locator. But being able to run the DA command at all, it should eventually start selling.
So everything is at default and yes there is a satellite in Tokyo Lambda, I have 4 DA's at least 3 of which I built myself although I am about to replace them with Mistral SF since I still haven't found the vulture I want (either prototype or advanced) and re-allocate the former DAs to UTs.

At this point I don't even care if that job works and am about to just delete it since I have moved on to boarding TMs and that is providing a more than adequate cash influx for now. Once I have the resources I will be building my first frigate based on the pirate Carrack M7 I was lucky enough to be able to scan relatively early while it was distracted and subsequently researched before starting with my marines. My next steps will be to get a ship building infrastructure put in place and build my fleet.

I really appreciate your insight on fighters since it has been a long time for me.

Stormbuilder
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Stormbuilder » Fri, 10. Jan 20, 14:26

So, I decided to adopt someone's suggestions way earlier in this tread (I think Panda's) and use SAs to distribute the Solar Plant ECs.

Maybe I am doing something wrong. This is what I did:
1) Homebased 2 TS for each solar plant (they are in a 300% sun sector)
2) Turned Station Agent on
3) Set Solar Plants and Sanctuaries to be at "your traders use these - YES"
4) Increased solar plants range to 25
5) Lowered sanctuary import thresholds from the Max of 600k to the amount I want in them (ranging between 50k and 150k)

What happens next is a bit puzzling. The SAs made one run, and then they went back, docket at the Solar Plants, but their status is stuck at "Returning home". Even if I manually reset them to be Station Agent again, they just sit their in the Solar Plant doing nothing. I tried waiting for 10 minutes to see if something happens, but no change - the solar plants are full at this point, and the sanctuaries are far from hitting the max threshold.

Am I doing something wrong?

EDIT: it's working now. I don't know whether it was me restarting the game, or increasing the export threshold of the sanctuaries above zero.

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by sataricon » Fri, 10. Jan 20, 23:57

I have this problem with the fleet commands.
When i jump into a sector that i want dead i'll order my Commander "usually a dreadnought" to jump at the gate then issue the call to arms command.
This insures that all my fleet is in one area of the map then i issue the attack all or invade sector as i see fit.
Problem comes from carriers and their carried ships that when i issue the command to the fleet to invade another sector the carriers just abandon their fighters and jump while the fighters just takes the long way to get to the fleet.
The fighters are part of the fleet and their homebase is one of the carriers.

Also when i issue the invade sector command sometimes "some" of the capital ships just fly away from the enemy stations instead of approaching the stations.

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Stormbuilder » Sat, 11. Jan 20, 01:30

If I have Station Agents assigned to Solar Plants, and they have run out of sanctuaries or other my own factories that they can deliver to, are they not supposed to sell the excess stock? They are just sitting there doing nothing while the factories fill up.

I've pretty much given up on this. Right now I am routing all the ECs to the sanctuary, where I sell everything when it reaches 500k, and all the other sanctuaries pull from this one to then distribute internally.

Also, I am trying to complete my Ascenscion 5 which requires killing 2 M7...which I did but nothing triggered. Is the expectation that my ship needs to land the killing blow? :( That's a bit hard with an M6

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Joubarbe » Sat, 11. Jan 20, 10:04

@sataricon @Stormbuilder
Please provide a savegame with specific instructions to reproduce the bugs you mention.

M7 problem: the script takes the data you can access from the pilot section. If you don't see M7 -> 2 in this section, then someone else killed them.

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Hector0x » Sat, 11. Jan 20, 10:35

sataricon wrote:
Fri, 10. Jan 20, 23:57
When i jump into a sector that i want dead i'll order my Commander "usually a dreadnought" to jump at the gate then issue the call to arms command.
This insures that all my fleet is in one area of the map then i issue the attack all or invade sector as i see fit.
The Call to Arms tells fleet ships to get fuel and repair themselves. If your commander has already arrived in the battlezone some ships might not follow him to join the fight but head to sanctuaries to get combat ready. It's like Jon Snow charging ahead in the Battle of the Bastards with his army a hundred meters behind him. :D

Try to use the call to arms beforehand on safe territory. Let your fleet sort themselves out and then go into a hostile sector with "invade", or "attack all enemies". Scout ahead and choose between the two commands. If there is a hostile fleet present, go with the fleet order "attack all enemies" and then switch to "invade" after they are beaten (invade is basically "attack stations")

The commander will jump to center and all ships follow him shortly after (provided you have quantum jump extension). Keep an eye on incoming battlegroups. You have to switch "invade" back to "attack all enemies" or your fleet won't defend itself (turrets will fire on enemy ships if the player is in sector)

Edit: If you don't want to engage the enemy right away you can also move your commander alone (for example to a jump beacon). But the call to arms should be made beforehand. After the call the fleet will follow and protect the commander.

sataricon wrote:
Fri, 10. Jan 20, 23:57
Problem comes from carriers and their carried ships that when i issue the command to the fleet to invade another sector the carriers just abandon their fighters and jump while the fighters just takes the long way to get to the fleet.
The fighters are part of the fleet and their homebase is one of the carriers.
This is most likely related to the call to arms refuel routine if your fleet commander was the only one with a transporter device and he is already gone because you gave him a personal order. The fighters might be trying to refuel from somewhere else because it's closer.
On default a fleet command like "invade", or "attack all enemies" makes all fighters dock first and no ship makes a move before the fleet is assembled and ready.
Fighters also don't need to be homebased to a carrier. They will just use the closest ship with docking capability. You can (and maybe should) set a single sanctuary as homebase for all fleet ships with the fleet command console.
sataricon wrote:
Fri, 10. Jan 20, 23:57
Also when i issue the invade sector command sometimes "some" of the capital ships just fly away from the enemy stations instead of approaching the stations.
Sometimes i get this behaviour too. But it has been worse (Panda fixed it quite well). They should eventually turn around. You can leave the sector if you need to them sorted. X3 wasn't really made for these kind of engagements and we may not be able to control our fleets like we would like. Remember that vanilla fleet commands didn't even work.

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Darkternal » Mon, 13. Jan 20, 09:16

So many routine with fleet management...200 m6 solve any problem :)

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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Joubarbe » Mon, 13. Jan 20, 11:30

I think that the characteristics of two ships of the same class are two different. I'm still wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to reduce the variety within the same class.
In the long term, Mayhem, in its current state, has probably about the same output in terms of territory control. I'm currently tweaking that by adjusting invasion costs, but in Mayhem 3, there won't be any invasion cost (because all ships are manufactured in a "realistic" way). And Terrans/ATF is no longer a faction (only the player can acquire Terran technology through research).

What's your opinion about ship stats?

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Hector0x
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Re: [X3LU] Mayhem 2.9.13

Post by Hector0x » Mon, 13. Jan 20, 18:09

Joubarbe wrote:
Mon, 13. Jan 20, 11:30
What's your opinion about ship stats?
In my opinion 3 general topics are worth thinking about.

1) Ship Speeds:
- if NPC shipbuilding has any connection to their economy, all TS ships should be nearly equally efficient.
- Unless you want certain ships have a special strategic purpose (for example TL's carrying jump beacons, Carriers repairing docked ships, M5 Scouts being super fast but having almost no weapons), "normal" combat ships should have less speed differences. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to send a 30m/s dreadnought without a jumpdrive on a long journey if you could send 170m/s corvettes instead.

2) Combat Power:
- again, if factions can't spawn their ships like in Mayhem 2, i'd say comparable strength gets more important than ever
- their power almost exclusively depends on shield/hull strength, and damage (amount of turrets, weapon damage) vs. amount of ships (cost)
- you should try to balance this out more than it is in Mayhem 2. Allowing certain factions to build more, but cheaper ships seems hard to balance (in Mayhem 2 NPC fleet sizes are also capped and spamming cheap ships isn't an option for the factions). So roughly equal combat strength is probably easier to achieve.
- little variance for shield strength sounds solid for a first balance pass. I think this has the most impact on combat outcome.
- more gun slot ships should eventually get less defense or made more expensive (if this actually makes them harder to build for NPC's)

3) Battle Duration:
- right now combat is a fairly quick matter, especially OOS and once shields are down
- from what you've revealed, it seems that in Mayhem 3 it's getting harder (if not impossible) to retreat from a battle (no jumpdrive)
- it might be a smart move to make ships tougher and therefore give the player more time to react, bring in reinforcements, or maybe even retreat some faster ships
Ideas to increase ship resilience:
- basic decrease in overall damage for everything
- making hulls way tougher than shields could be interesting (but this could also be annoying, and damaged ships are slowing down so it gets even harder to retreat)
- maybe combine this with the refinement of some ship roles. Like leaving capships slow to move, but their capital weapons being the only ones which deal good hull damage which is needed to destroy stations and other capships in any reasonable amount of time. Making it risky to attack with them because it takes them forever to come back and defend.


In the end it's your vision and equalizing everything also takes some magic away :)


On invasion costs in Mayhem 2. From my experience high cost invasion factions often have bigger battlegroups and end up winning most of the time (Slow and steady expansion). Low invasion cost factions often throw understrength BG's on well defended sectors. In the long run they always seem to loose territory.
When it's equal BG vs. BG, i really think it mostly comes down to shield strength. Even more so than the amount of turrets and weapon damage. Because offensive focused ships like the ones from the Split don't survive long enough to utilize their firepower.
But the game is fairly slow paced already, so i'm really unsure if slowing everything down even more would be an improvement. You'd probably get countless complaints about underpowered weapons and having to dogfight pirate corvettes for hours on end :lol:

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