[SCR] OOS Combat Rebalance (alpha 0.32 - 06.08.10)

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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 07:29

PWAGGO wrote:I have run the script for a day now and it is seriously lags my game when I restored back to before the script installation it runs fine is there a way of fixing this?
If your computer is too slow to run it - no.

This is an alpha version. Efficiency is not even considered.

homerdog wrote:This may be a silly question but I'd like to know. If I understand correctly MARS selects the most powerful lasers OOS. Wouldn't this work against what this mod is trying to accomplish? Or have you accounted for that?
Pretty much all ships have light and heavy turrets so there will automatically be a laser mix.

The Boreas can mount 100% capital ship lasers but the use of IBL in 2 turrets is the main balancing issue with this ship so you should be perfectly fine without any IBL.
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Post by homerdog » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 07:38

Gazz wrote:Pretty much all ships have light and heavy turrets so there will automatically be a laser mix.

The Boreas can mount 100% capital ship lasers but the use of IBL in 2 turrets is the main balancing issue with this ship so you should be perfectly fine without any IBL.
Right, but say for example an M2 is taking on 10 M3s. The M2 has PPCs and flak, enough of each to load all of its turrets. If it's running MARS will it default to the PPCs in this situation OOS? With the original OOS formulas that would be preferred, but with your mod I understand the flak would be better..

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Post by apricotslice » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 07:50

What about when a mod has removed all "laser mix" from the ship ? Ie. Its carrying either all PPC's or all PBE's for example.

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Post by MutantDwarf » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 09:21

What about when a mod has removed all "laser mix" from the ship ? Ie. Its carrying either all PPC's or all PBE's for example.
Then, just like in-sector, it won't be very good against certain classes of targets. A capital ship with only PPCs won't be as good against fighters as it would be if it carried only flak guns, for example, and probably won't be as good as if it carried half PPCs and half Flak.

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Post by PWAGGO » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 09:55

Gazz wrote: If your computer is too slow to run it - no.
Lol I love simple answers the spec of my PC is not bad but admittedly could be better.
Gazz wrote:This is an alpha version. Efficiency is not even considered.
I will await the final release then or until I get more memory for my Quad Core

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Post by MutantDwarf » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 10:38

I don't know if you know this already, but 4 cores aren't going to help you in X3. It only uses 1 core no matter what.

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Post by PWAGGO » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 10:42

MutantDwarf wrote:I don't know if you know this already, but 4 cores aren't going to help you in X3. It only uses 1 core no matter what.
Yes I do I was being Ironic :)

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Post by wyvern11 » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 11:51

@pwaggo

how fast is any core, how much ram do you sport?
i have a dual 3,16 and 4g ram (two only being used) and it works quite OK

I think the extensive logging may be the point (like 85Megs logfiles in two hours)
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 12:11

homerdog wrote:Right, but say for example an M2 is taking on 10 M3s. The M2 has PPCs and flak, enough of each to load all of its turrets. If it's running MARS will it default to the PPCs in this situation OOS? With the original OOS formulas that would be preferred, but with your mod I understand the flak would be better..
MARS does not switch weapons while fighting OOS.
AFAIK, no script does.

Any optimisation to MARS or other scripts would come much much later.

That my guesstimated values are basically on target is no big surprise because a lot of planning went into this. I still do expect some unprobability issues with different ship / weapon configurations.

This is not a finished script.
Noone (me included) would adapt script XYZ to support this alpha version where everything could still change.

apricotslice wrote:What about when a mod has removed all "laser mix" from the ship ? Ie. Its carrying either all PPC's or all PBE's for example.
Then it probably sucks to be that ship.

PWAGGO wrote:Lol I love simple answers the spec of my PC is not bad but admittedly could be better.
Without giving any info, a simple answer is the best you can get...

It may be the logging. It is... massive.
I dunno. Maybe yer running out of virtual memory.

But this is purely a test version. The logging is the whole point of it.
That people use it for actual playing is possible but as long as I call it an alpha version, I don't need to care if it ruins any player property or trashes any savegames. =)
Last edited by Gazz on Tue, 9. Jun 09, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PWAGGO » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 12:17

Hi wyvern11
I am running an intel Q6600 core 2 quad 2.4 ghz with 2GB RAM running at 1066 MHZ.
I know its not the latest spec and the memory just meets the minimum spec but I have never had issues running X3TC or any scripts except LV's RRF and this one.
Hope this helps

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Post by wyvern11 » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 13:22

@gazz
I'm playing or rather continueing an actual game with your alpha and have so far not come across any "unprobability issues" i'd noticed

so trash away ...

any interest in special information to be combed out of your submassive logging (*massive* logging (others would call it *insensible*) is like a G per hour) ??

- victim survivability
- hit statistics
...
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Post by Lancefighter » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 17:07

I note no comment on cmod3 compatibility...

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Post by Marodeur » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 17:38

First posting, .... :p
* Required * Required * Required *

* MARS Fire Control
I use several of it's data arrays to set up damage values.
As a result, this OOS script should automatically be compatible with CMOD and any other mod that comes with a proper config file 7047.

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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 17:40

Is the counterfire too heavy?
My intention was to damage attacking small ships/drones but not instantly incinerate anything that touches a capital ship.

M1/M2 firing for 5 sec hit a fighter for 200.000-500.000 damage.
That is mostly the heavy anti-fighter lasers like CIG but also "light" batteries like Flak.
Without PPC (during CF) that value should be roughly 1/3 lower.

That's actually not unrealistic if you take some heavy Flak batteries into account but it's certain and instant death for every fighter poking an M2.

I don't know how it is with M7 but they have a lot fewer turrets. I bet they still take out many fighters on their first pass.

Right now, CF uses up 5 seconds of the cap ship's next turn fire time.
Or should. It's not tested... very well.
Do you see any log entries were the add battery line of the main attack, (not CF: add battery)

Code: Select all

add battery;1;shield DPS;90596;hull DPS;31533;pierce DPS;0;sec left;5
has different "second" values for the 3 batteries?

If there are mismatching seconds then the accounting works when the ship fires all batteries.
Since CF only uses the 2nd and 3rd largest batteries, the primary guns of an M2 are never used. These would have all their "seconds" left after doing counterfire in the previous turn.



So... how do we want it to be?

The capital ships differ greatly in their firepower against fighters but I could assign a lower CF.Burst.Length so that the average M1/2 does 40-50000 average shield damage...
But even 1 second would be devastating with some ships - like terrans with lots and lots of Flak.

Or simply a modifier to reduce CF accuracy for "shooting from the hip at targets of opportunity"?

An M2 deliberately attacking a fighter should definitely incinerate it but counterfire should not... generally.



@ Lancefighter

What the man said.

But (deja vue?) this is an alpha version. It's not even remotely feature complete.
I will not even look into compatibility issues at this time.

However, you can test if it works. Testing the core functionality is all we're doing here...
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Post by MutantDwarf » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 18:19

An M2 deliberately attacking a fighter should definitely incinerate it but counterfire should not... generally.
Why not? An M2, especially an M2 equipped with flak, should devastate fighters - unless there are too many fighters for it to blast away.

About 100k worth of damage per counterfire turn sounds about right - enough so that most M4s and lower will be destroyed, but heavily shielded M3s will survive.

You do need to figure evasion into it, though - five seconds of counterfire might be just fine after you get the evasion bits done.

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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 18:31

These are the figures with "average" evasion but that doesn't mean I couldn't tone them down further for small ships.
An M2 simply has silly firepower if it concentrates on something as fragile as a fighter...

Under the current system an M2 could annihilate about 4-5 fighters per round - only using counterfire.

I have a feeling that this killing speed is too much. =)

Most (2/3) of the huge ships' damage comes from their medium battery which is counted at 60 % vs fighters.
This percentage is used for any laser that attacks something "1 level smaller", such as PPC vs M6.

If I reduce that to then cap ship damage vs fighters drops considerably.
Last edited by Gazz on Tue, 9. Jun 09, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by wyvern11 » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 18:32

Is the counterfire too heavy?
My intention was to damage attacking small ships/drones but not instantly incinerate anything that touches a capital ship.

M1/M2 firing for 5 sec hit a fighter for 200.000-500.000 damage.
I was under the impression that CF would divide up between the attacking M3
So M1/M2 would be able to scratch 3-6 Fighters per CF. This is not nice for the Fighters but sounds realistic. modern gunships attacking a SAM-site having it's full attention should have an equal survival rate.

there will be a random and an evade-skill affixed to the CF-damage - maybe you can make this steep enough that *real good* pilots get a chance while noobs get torn to pieces (The average WW-pilot survived a handful of missions at best)

only updated to newest version now

this is how it was in previous:

Code: Select all


row: time ship seconds 

20101:749992 IM3SA-32 30
20107:749993 IM3IW-88 31
20108:749993 IM3IW-88 31
20114:749996 ADRDB-70 30
20115:749996 ADRDB-70 30
20121:749997 IM3SA-32 5
20122:749997 IM3SA-32 5

micha@Administrator ~
$ sed 's/ /_/g;s/;/  /g' /cygdrive/c/Users/micha/Documents/Egosoft/X3TC/log01338.txt | grep -n add | awk '$5>0 {print $1, $2, $13 }' | awk '$4=check {check=$4; print $1, $2, $3} '

<nothing found>
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 18:52

wyvern11 wrote:I was under the impression that CF would divide up between the attacking M3
So M1/M2 would be able to scratch 3-6 Fighters per CF. This is not nice for the Fighters but sounds realistic. modern gunships attacking a SAM-site having it's full attention should have an equal survival rate.
Well, it does divide.
The maximum that any battery has for "a round" is 30 sec.

If the last round was > 45 sec ago, it's counted as a new engagement, which is capped at 5 sec for the first round.

If Seconds.Remaining <= CF.Burst.Length
then no CF is allowed.
So no CF during the first round of an engagement.

If the M2 is attacked by 2 fighters:
- Round 1: the M2 is hit by both fighters, not firing back because it only has 5 sec, saving that for the main target
- Round 2: the M2 now has 30 sec available and uses 5 each to CF when attacked by each fighter
- Round 2: the M2 fires the remaining 20 sec at whatever it decides to attack
it also fires it's main gun for 30 sec against the same target

That's the theory...

So if you saturate a ship with drones along with the fighters, there's a chance that the drones will attack first and therefore soak some of the counterfire.

wyvern11 wrote:there will be a random and an evade-skill affixed to the CF-damage - maybe you can make this steep enough that *real good* pilots get a chance while noobs get torn to pieces (The average WW-pilot survived a handful of missions at best)
Yes, I want some skill based damage mitigation(always) and avoidance (rare).

Avoidance and mitigation don't need to be constant, either.
Everquest uses these to balance the melee classes.
Real tanks (tm) have high mitigation, resulting in low but constant damage that the healers can rely on and keep up with.
Involuntary tanks like rangers and whatnot have high avoidance allowing them to often well... avoid getting hit. But if that fails it hurts. Really bad. So they can tank in a pinch but that keeps the healer on his toes.

X3 fighters would clearly use mostly avoidance, which would be based on speed (size?) as the "main attribute".
Dancing around PPC bullets is fine but if you do get hit, it's not funny.

An M2 is built to get hit. It's the main tank of our party.
Avoidance? Pah! Gimme your best shot!
M2 could get mitigation, making them the tough cookies they are supposed to be.

Variable evasion systems can probably be tailored to our needs easier than one "formula to rule them all".
Last edited by Gazz on Sat, 13. Jun 09, 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by wyvern11 » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 19:26

so what you describe is actually as is to be expected: a cloud of fighters attacking flak wielding target :

round by round the cap-ship slowly erodes the attack wings. do take in mind that eventual capitals accompanying the fighter wings get less fire. or ships wielding more cap-ship-weapons are more effective in big gun battles

Code: Select all

3817:751313 XM7NP-41 11
3818:751313 XM7NP-41 11
3825:751313 BM4XP-41 30
3826:751313 BM4XP-41 30

micha@Administrator ~
$ sed 's/ /_/g;s/;/  /g' /cygdrive/c/Users/micha/Documents/Egosoft/X3TC/log01338.txt | grep -n add | awk '$5>0 {print $1, $2, $13 }' | awk '$4=check {check=$4; print $1, $2, $3} '

micha@Administrator ~
$
so still nothing found

Most (2/3) of the huge ships' damage comes from their medium battery which is counted at 60 % vs fighters.
This percentage is used for any laser that attacks something "1 level smaller", such as PPC vs M6.

If I reduce that to then cap ship damage vs fighters drops considerably.


yeah maybe you better (for look and feel reasons). but realistically not much fighters return from a determinedly defended capship

first wave of americans at midway had 6 planes return out of more than 40....


EDIT

Code: Select all


3584:751187  XM7NP-41  Xenon_Q  CF:_add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13576  hull_DPS  4696  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  0  Effectivity_Perc  60
3603:751187  XM7XD-31  Xenon_Q  CF:_add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13300  hull_DPS  4606  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  60
3626:751204  XM7WI-36  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  15280  hull_DPS  5265  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  60
3664:751217  XM7NP-41  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13576  hull_DPS  4696  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  31  Effectivity_Perc  60
3788:751302  XM7NP-41  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13576  hull_DPS  4696  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  60
3818:751313  XM7NP-41  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13576  hull_DPS  4696  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  11  Effectivity_Perc  60
3894:751386  XM7VI-55  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  12466  hull_DPS  4489  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  100
3956:751418  XM7WI-58  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13447  hull_DPS  4843  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  100
4058:751449  XM7WI-58  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  13447  hull_DPS  4843  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  31  Effectivity_Perc  60
4074:751450  XM7WI-36  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  15280  hull_DPS  5265  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  60
4105:751454  XM7SV-09  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  14774  hull_DPS  5321  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  5  Effectivity_Perc  60
4127:751460  XM7WI-36  Xenon_Q  add_battery  1  shield_DPS  15280  hull_DPS  5265  pierce_DPS  0  sec_left  10  Effectivity_Perc  60



M7-CF is not that deadly [/code]
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 9. Jun 09, 20:22

wyvern11 wrote:round by round the cap-ship slowly erodes the attack wings. do take in mind that eventual capitals accompanying the fighter wings get less fire. or ships wielding more cap-ship-weapons are more effective in big gun battles
That's the master plan behind it. =)
A ship like a Boreas using 100% PPC/IBL would not be able to counterfire at all and would have to kill fighters the "old way", destroying one per round.

And if a carrier (or a ship with drones) attacks a more regular M2 - which often equip a large number of medium lasers (CIG) - then a sizable chunk of the M2's firepower can be soaked by fighters / drones.

That's what offsets the carrier's enforced (by me =) reduction of firepower.
The carrier is actively protected because it's fighters tie a number of the enemy's guns.
The MARS drone principle - just in a strategy game variant. =)

A more tactical game where carriers work with their fighters. Not just either or.
And the beauty of it is - the X3 AI does not need to learn this. They already do that except that it never had a deeper purpose. =)

yeah maybe you better (for look and feel reasons). but realistically not much fighters return from a determinedly defended capship
It's just no fun losing 5 (player) fighters to an M2 - because of the micromanagement involved in replacing them.

I saw one LX do 1 million shield damage in a 30 sec round.
So it would take 600+ fighters to one-round an M2... (not counting missiles =)

With 60 fighters you need 10 rounds, during which your fighters are reduced to smoking wrecks, most likely failing to destroy the target because of the erosion of numbers.

I think we need a balancing goal.
X Nova Raider should be able to destroy an M2 of suchandsuch type with Y losses.
Some ballpark values to aim for.

We can use arbitrary mitigation / avoidance values until the numbers fit.
Then these skill boni can be gained somehow.
Be it by speed, pilot skill, target size class, object class... whatever.

But first we need a clear idea of what we want the result to be. =)
My first step was merely to assign relatively accurate damage values.
That's a good start because it removes the insane peaks we'd get from the vanilla OOS damage.
But the eventual balance will be... what it needs to be. The damage values are just raw data.

Any carrier users out there?
What is the expected fatality rate (IS) when destroying an M2 solely with fighters?
Ideally a MARS M2 because the vanilla M2 more or less goof around, waiting for the big flash. If they destroy a fighter it's mostly by coincidence.

M7-CF is not that deadly
Hmmkay.
Roughly 40k shield damage from the M7 CF.

So we can probably concentrate on the M1/2 that are bristling with guns.
Maybe assign them a smaller CF.Burst.Length so they'd spread their fire more...
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