Israel War

[fiksal]

Don't conflate protesting Israel's war crimes with anti-Semitism. Just don't do that. Crimes against Jewish people are not ok, but boycotting a hypothetical business that supports Israel's war crimes is definitely a valid form of protest: protesting with our wallets.

that's an interesting thought. How does one do that without standing right next to anti-Semitics.

Same for these demonstrations for free Palestine, it's not like many are holding signs to free hostages and capture Hamas the same time. None that I briefly saw perhaps?

[Falcrack]

You can't defend Israel's war crimes just like a Russian couldn't defend Russia's war crimes. Israel doesn't have the moral high ground, just like Russia. Bombing refugee camps... only a psychopath would find that necessary or justifiable. You're defending the indefensible.

Israel does indeed have a higher moral ground than Russia, since Russia's invasion of Ukraine was not preceeded by Ukraine killing thousands of Russians and taking hundreds hostage. And no, the hostilities between 2014 and 2022 don't count, because that was also instigated by Russia, and was just Ukraine defending itself.

As to bombing refugees camps, if Hamas fighters are taking refuge in refugee camps and using them as a base of operations, then there can be some justification for bombing them.

But I do think that Israel is unwise to pursue a course of revenge, and that this will turn out very badly for them. Imagine if instead of immediately taking revenge, Israel had instead mourned the loss of their citizens and not struck back? World sympathy would be on the side of Israel. Now, they are quickly losing friends and making stronger enemies.

[fiksal]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... jects-deal

Hamas official says ‘no chance’ hostages will return to Israel after Netanyahu rejects deal
The prime minister said he rejected the terms of a deal which included Israel’s complete withdrawal from Gaza

A Hamas official, Sami Abu Zuhri, told Reuters the Israeli prime minister’s refusal to end the military offensive in Gaza “means there is no chance for the return of the [Israeli] captives”, which are estimated to be 130 in number.

Netanyahu is facing mounting pressure to secure the release the hostages, but said in a statement that the Hamas demands included “the withdrawal of our forces from Gaza, the release of all the murderers and rapists … and leaving Hamas intact.”

Some deal that is.

[mr.WHO]

Interesting move on US side:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68173904

This, plus recent info that Kuwait delivered a lot of ex-Soviet design tanks for Ukraine make me think "the big flip" is more and more possible - Israel fliping to pro-Russian camp and Arabs fliping to pro-US camp.

[fiksal]

That will leave Iran and Hamas pretty sad

[felter]

I have pretty much kept out of this conversation I have to say that what has been happening on both sides of this conflict is pretty atrocious, both sides have been doing things that no leaders of any country should be doing, and I do believe Israel are attempting to wipe out all the Palestinians young old male or female doesn't matter they intend to murder them all. So it comes as no surprise that today the ICC have made it clear they are intending on issuing arrest warrants for both the leaders of Hamas and Israel.

As you can imagine, Israel are not happy about this outcome, but they have gone from being the persecuted to the persecutors the one thing they learned from the Nazi's was how to kill en masse, and in my view that is exactly what they have been doing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not just picking on them, Hamas are as much to blame as the Israel leaders, but Israel should know better because of their population's past history.

It's a sad state of affairs that should never have been allowed to happen.

[Falcrack]

Israel walked right into Hamas' trap. They have reacted exactly as Hamas wanted them to, with predictable consequences in terms of loss of international support for Israel.

Had Israel taken the counterintuitive step of not seeking to retaliate and take revenge for the October 7th attacks by Hamas, their security situation would be far better today. They would have international sympathy instead of condemnation. Hamas would look like the bad guys they are, and sympathy for them would be at an all time low. They might have even gotten the hostages back, some of them not in bodybags.

There is no solution to the Israeli and Palestinian crisis that does not involve a measure of ability to forgive that I feel neither side currently possesses. Netanyahu is certainly not the type to offer forgiveness.

While there is not currently a truly existential threat to the survival of Israel now, that could change in the coming years as a result of this. Israel cannot afford to alienate its international supporters. They are simply too small and few in number to stand alone.

[mr.WHO]

What, if ICC does have a point and all it takes to stop this madness, is to arrest both Hamas and Israeli leaders?

It would for sure not hurt to try.

Neither did anything to deascalate despite plenty of time and opportunities.

They could also pick Putin on their trip to Hague.

Iranians could provide helicopter service for everyone.