Trump - Criminal Prosecution

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Fri, 19. May 23, 11:31

National Archives had sent a letter to Trump informing him that it was sending information to Jack Smith showing that Trump’s advisers were aware that he had not taken proper steps to declassify documents.

So basically Trump was indeed taking classified documents, which he did not declassify. And his advisers knew Trump hadn't taken the steps to do that. So the only other defence Trump has, is the Presidential Records Act. But even here, he is so wrong.
According to the Presidential Records Act, no retiring executive can automatically claim any document as private property. Everything immediately comes under “complete ownership, possession, and control” of the public through the National Archives. That expressly includes documents to and from the immediate staff meant “to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.”
So, Trump is so wrong on many levels, plus compounded by what he has said previously, Is it little wonder that with what he said on CCN, the lawyer quit? And those that are still assigned to the case, (I think there are at least some) They won't be able to protect him. Especially if there are obstruction charges and the espionage act on top.

I just wish jack smith hurries up and drops the hammer on Trump. I really do.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Chips » Fri, 19. May 23, 13:32

Observe wrote:
Thu, 18. May 23, 20:02
matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 18. May 23, 19:23
IF Trump did get in, I suspect it will be very bad for everyone, and it will be scorched earth. Trump will have his revenge, and he will feel vindicated, and all his enemies will face his wrath. Plus putting America on a very dark path, democracy will certainly be dead by this stage.
I'm not sure about the democracy will be dead part. If Trump wins the election (legitimately), wouldn't this be democracy in action? To me, the greatest threat to democracy is censorship and right now, it is the liberals who are most guilty of that. I don't want to see Trump reelected, but the Biden administration isn't exactly a champion of democracy either for that matter.
On one hand you can say democracy in action if he's voted in... but on the other I'd say there's a catastrophic failure going on somewhere.

This is the chap who literally tried to prevent democracy in action *specifically* for himself; subvert democracy for his own ends - either by inciting an insurrection to overthrow a democratically elected government, or instructing the fabrication of votes and their respective counts in order to change an outcome.

He's also pardoned and released his political allies who were convicted of breaking the laws of the country while *he* was it's leader. He's allegedly committed rapes and proven of sexual offences. If that gets back into government, it'd indicate there's a fundamental issue with the Republican party, or the two party politics of the US.

Actually, there *is* a problem with that :D Just that pre-linked voting intent re Trump - where people stated they'd continue voting for a guy who'd be a criminal, is insane. However, I don't think they questions had a "if another Republican candidate polled a strong chance of winning than Trump, would you vote for Trump?", to find out if it's the man, or the fear of "reds under the bed" (and got to laugh at how they view liberals in US as left). But seeing how insanely partisan people are about their Republican party, I'm amazed suicide rates don't skyrocket if/when Democrats get into power. You'd think it's the end of the world to some of them; like their lives are OVER. Reality is Trump didn't improve the average Joe's life at all. He just pumped their fears.

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Fri, 19. May 23, 15:24

Chips wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 13:32
On one hand you can say democracy in action if he's voted in... but on the other I'd say there's a catastrophic failure going on somewhere.
The catastrophic failure will very likely once he is back in power. As he will pardon the jan 6 rioters, He will tear down anything that Biden has done. He may try and start more trade wars with China and very likely the EU. And this will no doubt isolate America in a big way. He was already a laughing stock of the world leaders. Plus lets not forget that he has the tag sexual assaulter in his name. (I don't know what update his appeal is, but I still don't see that been overturned) So his travelling will be very likely be a lot smaller. And like I said, his cabinet will be a total mess / disarray. He won't know who to trust.

As this will not help matters in the slightest. And as for his cult, well, the proud boys may or may not follow him still, same with the oath keepers. But if Trump does pardon them, then he might have a private militia again. Then there is the war (we all know which one) he pretty much boosted he will end it in 24 hours. But I don't believe that for a second, unless he invites a fight with Russia. Or turns his back on that country, much to the dismay of the rest of the world.

So the problem is, not him getting in, but what will happen after he gets in, as the republicans have the house, they will more then likely again, turn a blind eye to all this. So nothing will be done with about this madness. Which is when the scales of democracy will start to shift. Like it did before, but only this time, it will shift a lot faster.

The checks and balances that kept America on the side of democracy was severally tested, but to me, the greater test is coming. Unless, Trump is dealt with in a manner that will prevent him from entering the WH, then the checks and balances that are there to keep a president from going off the rails, will fail, and they will fail because of the MAGA republicans and the likes of Kevin McCarthy who will look the other way and kiss his leader and so nothing will happen, and things will fall farther down from there. Of course, this will take time, like I said, it won't happen overnight. But probably less and a year, Trump will have done a lot of damage, and no one will be in a position to stop him.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Chips » Fri, 19. May 23, 16:24

The point I was making is that you shouldn't be able to stand/run under his circumstances; either the Republican party should be absolutely throwing him out of the frame, or the voters themselves who *would* have voted for him (as Republican candidate) should be indicating they couldn't back such a candidate and other candidates would be preferential to him.

Ranting on about what he may/could/would/possibly in the future is irrelevant to what I was saying (if you're going to quote me). The simple fact is the US political party system is fubar if Trump is acceptable as a candidate and they'd vote for him. That's it. However, I'm in the wrong thread so expecting too much in that case. It's a thread about Trump and prosecutions, not Joe (Re)Public(an) voting morality.

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:28

Chips wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 16:24
The point I was making is that you shouldn't be able to stand/run under his circumstances; either the Republican party should be absolutely throwing him out of the frame, or the voters themselves who *would* have voted for him (as Republican candidate) should be indicating they couldn't back such a candidate and other candidates would be preferential to him.

Ranting on about what he may/could/would/possibly in the future is irrelevant to what I was saying (if you're going to quote me). The simple fact is the US political party system is fubar if Trump is acceptable as a candidate and they'd vote for him. That's it. However, I'm in the wrong thread so expecting too much in that case. It's a thread about Trump and prosecutions, not Joe (Re)Public(an) voting morality.
But what he will do when he gets in, is still part of the problem, but you are right, he should not be able to get back in the WH period. But we have to blame the founding fathers of America for that. And their short sightedness and stupidity. I would say there aren't any real checks and balances to stop a president going off the rails. The house and congress that is meant to stop this one person from going over the top isn't able too to do much at all. We only have to see the fiasco with his impeachment trials. But it will be worse next time, because the republicans now control the house, and they will clearly turn a blind eye to everything. that was in part, the point I was trying to make.

And I would say that to try and fix this, might be a huge mountain to climb, both main parties will have to agree to changes, and it may also require changes to the constitution and more. I don't see this happening, in fact, we might see world peace before both parties come together and start putting in better safeguards to prevent a demented mad man from taking over the WH again. As long as the MAGA wing of the republicans control the house, Trump will get his way. and these same republicans won't lift a finger to prevent a man like trump coming back into power.

that is the problem, and its worse that Trump still have a sizeable control of this party. they won't get rid of him, the MAGA ones certainly won't. And I feel that the democrats are in no position either to do anything about it either. So we have to rely on Jack Smith, but the issue there is, what he is now waiting for? isn't there enough evidence already to indict Trump? If there is one person who will bring down Trump, it will be him. But so far, that simply not happening.

So ultimately, nothing else will stop Trump from gaining access to the WH, then the real problems will happen.

I think those founding fathers should have done a better job of things, but this is the other problem, America is still very much stuck in the past, from the Electoral College, to the rules for running for president. I also do feel that with so much baggage with Trump, it should have disqualified him. But blame America's laws and the current house and senate for that.

edit
According to a report from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis submitted a letter on Thursday to government officials that hints at a several-week block in August when an indictment against Donald Trump may come down.

The report states Willis informed Fulton Superior Court’s chief judge Ural Glanville that a substantial number of her staff will not be in the office for a period of ten days during a three-week period up to August 18.
That will be interesting if True, so there is this case as well, lets hope this leads somewhere.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 21. May 23, 10:55

Trump's former lawyer speaks out on why he left. So, an advisor was the reason he left?

https://us.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023 ... nr-vpx.cnn

Can't find the video anywhere else, but to be honest, I still think he talking a bit of BS, And besides, Its trump how throw his legal team under the bus when he spoke on CNN. I think if anyone is making it harder to protect Trump, its Trump himself. Not some advisor. But I read else where that Trump likes infighting between his legal staff, he gets off from it.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Fri, 26. May 23, 12:28

More evidence of obstruction of justice,

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/wat ... 7063493588

Now, dress rehearsal, for moving documents before the FBI search. Very damning. Also, seem that Jack Smith is wrapping up the investigation into this, so hopefully he will announce soon what is going to happen next.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by felter » Sat, 27. May 23, 01:14

Trump is doomed, I just cannot see how he isn't going to end up in jail, but he should be thankful he has until March 25 next year before it gets fascinating, that is unless Jack Smith gets him first.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 27. May 23, 19:31

from one source

Here is a list of "possible crimes" Trump might be charged with, according to CREW:

Obstruction of justice (18 U.S.C. § 1519)

Criminal contempt (18 U.S.C. § 402)

False statements to federal authorities (18 U.S.C. § 1001)

Conversion of government property (18 U.S.C. § 641)

Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material (18 U.S.C. § 1924)

Removing and concealing government records (18 U.S.C. § 2071)

Gathering national defense information (18 U.S.C. § 793(e))

If any of that sticks, then Trump's goose is well and truly cooked. Still, the key thing is, when will he get indicted? I think if the DOJ doesn't indict him, then law and order in America will be badly beaten, and few will have faith in the system again. I guess the DOJ have been waiting for the case to be watertight. Still, if it had been someone else, then there wouldn't have been any hesitation.

I just hope Trump will go down, and soon, really hope soon.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by felter » Sat, 27. May 23, 20:05

The problem as I see it is that every time Jack Smith has got close to finalizing his investigation new evidence pops up, and he has no other choice than to run on with the investigation making it look like there is no end to it, but the way everyone is putting it right now he is pretty close, and it could be the next week or two that is left. Also, that Fani willis has hinted that indictments on her investigation are coming at the end of July, beginning of August, and she has all but said Trump is the main indictment there, by telling law enforcement to be prepared for potential trouble.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 28. May 23, 17:55

Jack Smith has to make sure everything is air tight on this because the orange one did have the title of "president" for a while. Which just goes to prove there's no equality in the justice system and the rich white guys get special treatment. Once the federal grand jury indicts the "very stable genius", additional evidence can still be added/witnesses subpoenaed, and new charges can be made by amending the criminal complaint to the court.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 28. May 23, 18:33

You know, from one website I looked at, they made a very distinctive observation, there is a small white border on some of the documents that the FBI took a picture of, when the FBI searched Trump's home. While some did not have a white border. You would get a white border when copying stuff or printing. as some copiers don't go all the way to the edge of the document. Some printers have borderless printing, but many don't.

So that means, the FBI took the copies of the original documents, not the originals. (and lets not forget, one aid did have a copy of a classified document / s on their computer. So, that means, that someone else has the originals, or they are stored elsewhere. That would be pretty serious, if those documents were in foreign hands, and lets not forgot that Trump has massive debts to pay off, what better way to pay of part of that debt is by selling those documents to another power.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Chips » Sun, 28. May 23, 20:08

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 18:33
You know, from one website I looked at, they made a very distinctive observation, there is a small white border on some of the documents that the FBI took a picture of, when the FBI searched Trump's home. While some did not have a white border. You would get a white border when copying stuff or printing. as some copiers don't go all the way to the edge of the document. Some printers have borderless printing, but many don't.

So that means, the FBI took the copies of the original documents, not the originals. (and lets not forget, one aid did have a copy of a classified document / s on their computer. So, that means, that someone else has the originals, or they are stored elsewhere. That would be pretty serious, if those documents were in foreign hands, and lets not forgot that Trump has massive debts to pay off, what better way to pay of part of that debt is by selling those documents to another power.
Erm, first is there an origin source of those documents as pictures?

Firstly, paper copies will be print outs. People aren't using type writers or hand writing these things... therefore any paper "copy" is already a copy. The documents will absolutely be electronically created and primarily stored.
Secondly, the idea that Trump is selling to foreign powers is insane.

As said previously, get people hate the guy, but this is borderline crazy. Stop believing everything some whackjob website on the internet can "write" or "observe" and just let the due process run its course. There's nothing to gain via fantasising Trump is somehow keeping photocopies of documents in order to sell to foreign powers in the scope of all this. Those websites make their money out of duping people into reading their "insight" - which is not insight but made up self motivated "content" to generate clicks and views, ad revenue and so on. There isn't really anything to discuss without actual evidence/links to sources either, because it's just someone saying something.

This reminds me of being asked whether I knew Prince William was cheating on Kate with his neighbour - because a TikTok video said so. Unless it turns out the source is BBC or similar fairly reliable media organisation (as in they check their sources to a reasonable extent) of course :D

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Observe » Sun, 28. May 23, 20:26

Chips wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 20:08
...the idea that Trump is selling to foreign powers is insane.
I agree. However, I can see foreign spies obtaining the documents as a result of Trump's careless handling and storing of them.
Chips wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 20:08
Stop believing everything some whackjob website on the internet can "write" or "observe" and just let the due process run its course. There's nothing to gain via fantasising Trump is somehow keeping photocopies of documents in order to sell to foreign powers in the scope of all this.
Agree again. Someones opinion or fantasy doesn't necessarily equate into truth. Even in mainstream media, there is far too much opinion based on political agenda, foisted under the guise of news.

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 28. May 23, 20:41

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/5 ... this-photo

This is the site, and this person seem to know what they are talking about. And if you look closely at the images with the documents, you can see a tiny border on some, but one on the top right, does not. Which leads this person to believe, four of the cover sheets have been copied.

Basically, a government copy will not have a white border. but 4 in that picture do. So that means, they were copied by a civilian copier.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 28. May 23, 20:47

Observe wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 20:26
Chips wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 20:08
...the idea that Trump is selling to foreign powers is insane.
I agree. However, I can see foreign spies obtaining the documents as a result of Trump's careless handling and storing of them.
Chips wrote:
Sun, 28. May 23, 20:08
Stop believing everything some whackjob website on the internet can "write" or "observe" and just let the due process run its course. There's nothing to gain via fantasising Trump is somehow keeping photocopies of documents in order to sell to foreign powers in the scope of all this.
Agree again. Someones opinion or fantasy doesn't necessarily equate into truth. Even in mainstream media, there is far too much opinion based on political agenda, foisted under the guise of news.
The thing is mind, Trump has a large debt to pay off, this is from his tax returns, it's estimated he must owe at least 1.6 billion to an overseas bank. And Trump doesn't have much in the way of cash on hand. Especailly as he made loses mostly through his presidency and beyond. We all know, he been trying to sell stuff and also his trading cards, he desperate for fund. So in that respect, selling documents will help to settle some of that debt. And Trump needs and loves money. I wouldn't put it past him. He owes a lot of money, he not going to get much back through his businesses,, especailly if they are at a loss. Plus with the up coming trials, and more, it adds up.

And lets not forgot, he turned his nose up to PGA and went with LIV, and he son in law got over 2 billion from that country, so no telling what Trump got, but one can speculate on what Trump might have given them in exchange.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Chips » Sun, 28. May 23, 22:26

Lets just hold those bolting horses for a second. The site and "the person seems to know what they're talking about". Because they've dug up a picture of "a colour printed cover sheet" and passed their opinion that it, categorically, proves that... actually, what is the insinuation? That someone colour photocopied sheets because there's a white border?

Firstly, a printer can also resize to give the border by not printing to the edge of the paper; infact, default printing will likely resize to give the exact observed effect. Additionally, it's far more likely to have a colour printer than a colour photocopier. So is it supposed to be that these cover sheets are created and there are stacks in locations which people are supposed to pick up and use when moving documents that they've printed off? Or...

Secondly, even if you did - so? With printed paper from original electronic documents, there's no such thing as "original" or "copy". Having a classified document in his possession that's neither stored correctly nor legally entitled to see, is the problem. It shouldn't have been removed from wherever it was and absolutely shouldn't have been stored wherever it was. You copy a classified document, you end up with 2 classified documents. Having it in your possession or making copies when you aren't permitted to have it is the issue. There probably is some form of means to document all physical copies in existence though - to be able to account for. In that instance, were they correctly registered/documented as being produced. Maybe that's the insinuation.

As it is, those documents are classified regardless of the header sheet's he's claiming prove whatever he thinks it proves. Those header sheets are probably the only unclassified thing (other than the ruler) in the photo. But to jump from "it has a white line around it" to imply that 1) They're copies and therefore 2) there's something illegal about it beyond holding classified documents when he shouldn't, 3) they're also incorrectly stored.

Furthermore, trusting the site when...
[ERRATUM] After checking around a bit, I have learned that yellow is the appropriate color for a TS//SCI cover sheet. However, it’s a different shade of yellow.
He therefore published without knowing what he was talking about... "In a few pictures, that colour is not the same, therefore it's a copy" - followed by "people have now told me that is indeed the correct colour". What does this show? That he does due dilligence? That he researches and asks people in the know? No, it proves he runs off with assumptions that have zero research nor basis of knowledge or fact. It should be a huge red flag.
In an October 2018 Simmons Research survey of 38 news organizations, the Daily Kos was ranked the fifth least trusted news organization by Americans in a tie with Breitbart News, with the Palmer Report, Occupy Democrats, InfoWars and The Daily Caller being lower-ranked.[16]
Great source. Doesn't mean it can't be true. Just means don't believe some rambling eejits blog.

Finally, what secrets do you think are going to net Trump billions without anyone noticing? First of all, what secrets are worth billions? Secondly, how do you sell that to get billions without any of the organisations (including the IRS or whatever Govt Dept is responsible with checking his tax returns) noticing?

That article at the posts related to it whiff horribly. It doesn't mean there's not possibly something about it, but trusting that site as a single source and running with it to extrapolate out to his financial woes mean he'd copied to sell (seriously, electronic copies far easier) to bail himself out etc - its just too much. If we're going down conspiracy alley's based off what we read on a blog, then threads become worthless. If it's news from reputable sources there's likely something to comment and discuss. If it's something someone put on a blog, or on their twitter, or in a TikTok video without a reputable news source as the origin, then...

It starts with "I've been waiting for someone to point out this obvious tell..." - the answer is, perhaps there's no tell and he's a nut - it'd certainly explain why "no-one" is pointing it out.

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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Mon, 29. May 23, 08:52

The thing is, there are reports also that one of Trump's aids also copied classified documents, and had them on their laptop. Your also forgetting, or didn't realise, that Trump had some of that stuff in his office, and that from an former aids log book, Trump has shown off documents to people both in his home and visitors from else where. Plus Trump shown off a classified map. And lets also not forgot, that there were also folders found but no pages in them.

Trumps tax returns, we only know from when he first entered WH a bit after. But he desperate for cash, who has been propping him up? otherwise, this multi bankrupt Trump would have been out of any business ages ago. Seller classified nuclear secrets would probably be worth something. And those funds wouldn't go into his businesses records, but private ones. plus, Trump has not disclosed any payments he has got from other countries, (gifts)

I still say, the chances of him selling classified documents are still very high. again, he got big loans to pay off, he probably getting desperate to raise funds. Even if documents might not fully cover the cost, it will probably go to some way.

All in all, The american justice system is sleeping on the job, because Trump should be in prison by now. If Trump gets away with this, then it will just prove, that any president is above the law and is untouchable.

Even if that last source was not the best, OK, I put my hand up there. But, to me, Trump selling top secret documents to other powers, especailly to Putin, I think there is a good chance of that. Again, he has been bankrupt, his father kept bailing out his casinos when he was alive, and one might wonder, where he got all that money from. Also, Trumps father might have had connections with the mob. But as for Trump, a lot of his funds that propped him up, has come from another bank, Deutsche Bank to be exact, they weren't the lender, but just a intermediary, so the money came from else where. (Russian probably) also, Trump's social media platform is been investigated for money laundering, (again Russian money)

So this all adds up, if Trump has sold some of the documents to Russia and elsewhere. the dots are there. Someone needs to connect them all.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 29. May 23, 17:03

Unless they have either evidence of him sending classified documents to a foreign contact, or the CIA/NSA has found the same documents in some foreign agent's hands, it's very unlikely there will be any charges related since that can't be proven - photocopy or otherwise.

This ain't some GOP campaign here. Facts and truth will matter.
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Re: Trump - Criminal Procecution

Post by matthewfarmery » Mon, 29. May 23, 17:58

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 29. May 23, 17:03
Unless they have either evidence of him sending classified documents to a foreign contact, or the CIA/NSA has found the same documents in some foreign agent's hands, it's very unlikely there will be any charges related since that can't be proven - photocopy or otherwise.

This ain't some GOP campaign here. Facts and truth will matter.
Sadly, you are probably right, and by the time, any duplicates have been found, the damage will be done, and too late. Which sadly, doesn't help matters, and the with the justice department being very slow. The other thing is, where else could Trump be holding documents? I still got a hunch, he probably got a lot more hidden somewhere. But with some much classified material, we will never know, what Trump took, and what damage it will do to the country as a whole and its relations to the rest of the world. Especailly as the GOP are also partly to blame for not dealing with him, when they had the chance. If Trump does go down, then his enablers may also go down with him. And there are some screwballs in the GOP that needs to go.
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