Russia-Ukraine War

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Observe
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:38

mr.WHO wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:35
Yep, I think in most of the countries, if you have dual citizenship, you are treated like the citizenship of the country you are present, is a primary one.
It has something to do with you are drinking the honey (enjoying the benefits) of the country you are living in and therefore should have to fight for that country as well. It makes sense.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54

Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:24
burger1 wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:06
Russia may refuse to acknowledge dual nationals’ US citizenship, deny their access to US consular assistance, prevent their departure from Russia, and conscript dual nationals for military service
When I was drafted into the US military during Vietnam, I was a New Zealand citizen living in the US. No even a US citizen. So conscripting dual nationals or even non-citizens is not unusual.
Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:38
mr.WHO wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:35
Yep, I think in most of the countries, if you have dual citizenship, you are treated like the citizenship of the country you are present, is a primary one.
It has something to do with you are drinking the honey (enjoying the benefits) of the country you are living in and therefore should have to fight for that country as well. It makes sense.
May? That's always been the case. US Embassy just restating the obvious, and what it had always stated before on their web site.

So, I can clarify that one.

Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means. Other embassies do say quite clearly that they would have a harder time helping you if you are in Russia on a Russian passport (which is the only way for a Russian citizen to be in Russia).

Normally Russia wouldnt want to draft an American citizens into Russian army. Because it'd be too funny when they twit about the state of the Russian army. But crazy times require crazy or dumb-er measures?
Last edited by fiksal on Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:58

Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:04
Personally I've discarded the idea Ukraine did this. They have a strong motive but lack the resources for this stunt. Also, if it came out that they did it, it would mean bye-bye to any battle tanks Europe could deliver in the future.
You are probably right about Ukraine not being responsible for the pipeline. I suppose this could be an entirely different agenda than the Ukraine war. Some sort of Eco-terrorists perhaps wanting to shut down prospects for continued reliance on non-renewable energy?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03

fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Sovereign01 » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:17

Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03
fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.
Sounds complicated- how did a Kiwi and a Norwegian end up living in the USA?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:54

Sovereign01 wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:17
Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03
fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.
Sounds complicated- how did a Kiwi and a Norwegian end up living in the USA?
Destiny and hormones I suppose. :)

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Tamina » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:01

Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03
fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.
Let me say, this is pretty common, be it Russia, US or many other places, including but not limited to Europe. If you have a multi-citizenship, you also have to take all responsibilities for that country/society as much as a single-citizenship person has to - after all, you are also enjoying all the benefits of it. That means, a multi citizenship owner can be just as well be drafted into military service as a single citizenship owner can be, no matter where both of them are living. :)

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by JSDD » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:06

Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 20:38
JSDD wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 06:17
// one exception might be: russia wants europe to have a hard winter and not to be able to steal the gas that was stored in the pipeline ..
The 170 mill m³ in them would last for how many hours? Heard that argument too. Pretty sure Russia could lower the pressure shoreside easy enough to prevent any petty theft without sending out a sabotage team to blow the pipes up risking being detected while doing it. Makes no sense, no matter how many newpapers print it.
makes sence :gruebel:
didnt think that one through thoroughly

while russia claims US involvement in this, german news channel posted an interview with a guy who caims: "russians have the ability to do that with mini-submarines"
no word whatsoever about the fact that any nation with "access" to the "hi-tech" of "remote control" ( :D ) can do such a cheap attack ...
if a nation can "put a man on the moon and bring him back to earth", then destroying a underwater pipe shouldnt be that hard to accomplish (like rocket science)

jesus, give me a remote control, a motor-driven toy fish and a charge and can do that, too ^^ baltic sea is just 50 meters deep over there

as someone who sees all of that kind of neutral and with an understanding of both sides, german media propaganda gets more and more ridiculous ...
// by the way, i mean public TV "ARD/ZDF" ... they try to sell us all for stupid as straw
Last edited by JSDD on Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:12

Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03
fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.
That's true



Tamina wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:01
Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 22:03
fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:54
Russia doesnt recognize dual citizenship (merely acknowledges that it exists). When you are in Russia you are only Russian, with all that this means.
Yea, it's the same in the US. They don't recognize dual-citizenship, but they acknowledge that other countries do. For example, my daughter was born to a Norwegian mother and New Zealand father in the United States. Both Norway and New Zealand recognize that she has triple citizenship, but the US only recognizes her US citizenship.
Let me say, this is pretty common, be it Russia, US or many other places, including but not limited to Europe. If you have a multi-citizenship, you also have to take all responsibilities for that country/society as much as a single-citizenship person has to - after all, you are also enjoying all the benefits of it. That means, a multi citizenship owner can be just as well be drafted into military service as a single citizenship owner can be, no matter where both of them are living. :)

ah okay, my bad for assuming it was something else in Europe.

so literally the US embassy just repeated the obvious :)

what about passport used for entry, does it have to be of your own country or can you use your another citizenship one?
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Cpt.Jericho » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:27

Observe wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:58
Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 21:04
Personally I've discarded the idea Ukraine did this. They have a strong motive but lack the resources for this stunt. Also, if it came out that they did it, it would mean bye-bye to any battle tanks Europe could deliver in the future.
You are probably right about Ukraine not being responsible for the pipeline. I suppose this could be an entirely different agenda than the Ukraine war. Some sort of Eco-terrorists perhaps wanting to shut down prospects for continued reliance on non-renewable energy?
Eco-terrorists? Sorry, but that is highly unlikely.

a) they don't have the means.
b) the alternative in Europe for natural gas is either coal or nuclear power.
c) no treehugger organisation is gloating these days.
d) releasing tons of natural gas into the environment isn't really a ecological.

This is a job done by a/multiple gouvernment/s. It's real bad and there is no scapegoat terrorist you can blame for this. Someone top in the food-chain gave the order.

What's even worse, I strongly doubt the actual truth will be availible in the foreseeable future. For all we know is that some blew those pipes up, but we can't even tell when they laid the bombs.

Or is it better not to know the truth? :gruebel:
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by euclid » Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:52

fiksal wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:12
.......... what about passport used for entry, does it have to be of your own country or can you use your another citizenship one?
It doesn't matter as long as the passport is valid (our family has a British and a German passport). However, there may be countries which handle this differently and I (we) have not visited yet.

Cheers Euclid

ps: Sorry for going OT here ;-) E.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 00:53

euclid wrote:
Wed, 28. Sep 22, 23:52
ps: Sorry for going OT here ;-) E.
thanks! I will keep further questions for a dedicated thread anyways.

I asked because, a saying goes (in a Russian movie goes) : strike the iron near the cash register.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by EGO_Aut » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:08

Looks like US sabotaged the NS pipelines.

US helicopters with the callsign FFAB123 (from USS Kearsarge) did hover around the places of the leak some days before.

What will Der Leyen do?
She will shut up and suck.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Tamina » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:24

The helicopter exists but neither was it flying near those places (30km distance) nor was it "hovering around" and "some days before" makes it just ridiculous.
Please note: I am not trying to argue with you, I am just keeping others from being dragged into the same Russian controlled right wing propaganda bubble, I guess Telegram or AfD is the source.

Meanwhile Denmark says, that Russian military ships were present at the time of the explosions in that area, however they emphasized that Russian military ships are constantly cruising the waters in the area and it could just as well be a coincidence. I presume that is the reason though why Russia feels threatened and starts up its Telegram machinery again.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:33

EGO_Aut wrote:
Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:08
Looks like US sabotaged the NS pipelines.

US helicopters with the callsign FFAB123 (from USS Kearsarge) did hover around the places of the leak some days before.

What will Der Leyen do?
She will shut up and suck.
Looks like no evidence at all. Having a helicopter in the general vicinty several days prior means nothing at all.

My opinion (not supported by evidence to be clear) is that this was a Russian false flag operation, with the goal of sowing doubt and distrust between the US and it's European allies. Nothing would benefit Putin more than this outcome, because it would weaken support for Ukraine.

Another motive for Russia is to demonstrate they have the capacity to disrupt energy supplies, such as the gas pipelines from Norway, should NATO join the fight. Trying to scare Europe into submission, a typical Russian activity such as poisoning people in other countries and then denying it, but sending a clear message to enemies of Russia that they are not safe.

The pipelines had already stopped delivering gas, there was no reason for the US to blow them up, even if Biden was devious enough to do something like blow up these pipelines (I don't believe he is, based on what I have seen of his character).

It is part of Putin's clear pattern of behavior to do a false flag operation and then try to pin the blame on his enemies. He has done this before. Perhaps he figured the days of delivering gas to Europe were irrevocably over, so he had nothing to lose by blowing up the pipelines.

Maybe Ukraine might have the motive, but I doubt they had the means. Even if they did have the means, I really doubt they would try this because if it was discovered Ukraine was behind it, it would dry up support for Ukraine.

But all of this is conjecture, because right now other than investigators nobody has evidence of the guilt or innocence of any particular party.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by euclid » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:57

Future looks grim since Putin has now officially annexed the regions (no surprise here) most of which are actually not even fully controlled by RU troops. Quite the opposite, the Urankian forces seem to make further progress in regaining territory and Zelenskyy will not stop to do so.

Hence it's a matter of days, maybe even hours, before Putin declares war on Ukraine for attacking Russia and that, so it seems, is exactly what he has planned from the start. He will conquer all of Ukrania using all means at his disposal.

Even if he will use tactical nuclear weapons, which I think is a real possibility, no one will do anything about it except the usual protests and some more sanctions. The US, France and UK will not respond "in kind" to risk WW III.

If he succeeds it will serve as an example test case. China will finally have a go on Taiwan and then there is no way to stop either of them to keep going. Why? Because no one wants the global nuclear destruction.

Cheers Euclid
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 20:02

I think the response to Russia using nukes in Ukraine will be forceful and dramatic, particularly if it involves the loss of life. I think Putin is deceived if he thinks that mobilization and even the use if nukes will win him this war, it will only harden support for Ukraine, and lead to direct NATO military actions (probably conventional, not nuclear) against Russian forces responsible for any nuclear attack.

Putin is once again poised to gamble and lose, with disastrous consequences.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 20:07

I don't see how Russia can score victories with their army. Sure, they can nuke Ukraine - but to what end? The separatists inherit a beautiful wasteland then and can either move deeper into Russia or ask themselve if they were just the pawns the whole world predicted them to be.

As I see it now Putin does a huge bluff. Ukraine will eventually free their territory, have to deal with the mess of a few hundred thousand people who don't want to be Ukraine citizens (don't envy them on having to decide what to do with those people) and Russia will at some point take one of the many ways out the rest of the world is still willing to offer.

No matter what - Russia has to learn that it can't have the Ukraine.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by EGO_Aut » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 20:07

Tamina wrote:
Thu, 29. Sep 22, 19:24
The helicopter exists but neither was it flying near those places (30km distance) nor was it "hovering around" and "some days before" makes it just ridiculous.
Please note: I am not trying to argue with you, I am just keeping others from being dragged into the same Russian controlled right wing propaganda bubble, I guess Telegram or AfD is the source.

Meanwhile Denmark says, that Russian military ships were present at the time of the explosions in that area, however they emphasized that Russian military ships are constantly cruising the waters in the area and it could just as well be a coincidence. I presume that is the reason though why Russia feels threatened and starts up its Telegram machinery again.
Don't worry, biden can't remember what he said in February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, etc. He can't spell pipeline either :D
Btw, you are guessing wrong, but ofc you can still trust your Reuters press (like DPA).

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 29. Sep 22, 20:25

chew-ie wrote:
Thu, 29. Sep 22, 20:07
I don't see how Russia can score victories with their army. Sure, they can nuke Ukraine - but to what end? The separatists inherit a beautiful wasteland then and can either move deeper into Russia or ask themselve if they were just the pawns the whole world predicted them to be.
After what they did to Mariupol, using tactical nukes is not a much difference.

Fortunately, it seems tactical nukes are not good against miltiary units unless you start to throw them like candies (and risking fallout going to Europe, which will be basically NATO cassus belli).
US, NATO and Ukraine probably already have contingency plans for this.

Note that in december US wanted to reveal B-21 Raider, so what are the odds they are alread operational?

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