Russia-Ukraine War

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 27. Dec 21, 18:25

Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Mon, 27. Dec 21, 15:50
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 25. Dec 21, 22:18
Even most of the US's wars have been in retaliation for attacks.
Didn't take much brains to figure that out.
And yet, you still, somehow, interpreted that as me saying it's okay to start a war. :lol:
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Cpt.Jericho » Mon, 27. Dec 21, 18:59

Exactly.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by notaterran » Thu, 30. Dec 21, 20:05

It seems that a likely scenario would be an invasion of the Donbas (Link) and obviously Russian propaganda would frame it as a response to Western aggression. I wonder what Biden / NATO could do, if anything.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by EGO_Aut » Fri, 31. Dec 21, 10:22

notaterran wrote:
Thu, 30. Dec 21, 20:05
It seems that a likely scenario would be an invasion of the Donbas (Link) and obviously Russian propaganda would frame it as a response to Western aggression. I wonder what Biden / NATO could do, if anything.
Maybe you should know more background.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Warenwolf » Mon, 3. Jan 22, 05:33

notaterran wrote:
Thu, 30. Dec 21, 20:05
It seems that a likely scenario would be an invasion of the Donbas (Link) and obviously Russian propaganda would frame it as a response to Western aggression. I wonder what Biden / NATO could do, if anything.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... e-invasion

With certain political actors emboldened by US debacle(s) in ME and her weakness due to political tribalism + EU's chronic political impotence - I foresee that we who live in Europe are heading towards interesting times.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by notaterran » Sat, 15. Jan 22, 22:14

Rumblings of war on the horizon? Hopefully not. As expected, Russian propagandists are working overtime:
White House press secretary Jen Psaki said on Friday the intelligence findings show Russia is also laying the groundwork through a social media disinformation campaign that frames Ukraine as an aggressor that has been preparing an imminent attack against Russian-backed forces in eastern Ukraine.
Link

And contingency plans for Europe, will they be enough?
The U.S. government has held talks with several international energy companies on contingency plans for supplying natural gas to Europe if conflict between Russia and Ukraine disrupts Russian supplies, two U.S. officials and two industry sources told Reuters on Friday.
Link
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Cpt.Jericho » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 21:39

Since when does the CIA has reliable information? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq anyone?
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Warenwolf » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 01:58

Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 21:39
Since when does the CIA has reliable information? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq anyone?
Bit colored by your anti-Americanism? Are organizations like Russia Today, Internet Research Agency or FSB more reliable sources according to you?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 06:17

Warenwolf wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 01:58
Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 21:39
Since when does the CIA has reliable information? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq anyone?
Bit colored by your anti-Americanism? Are organizations like Russia Today, Internet Research Agency or FSB more reliable sources according to you?
Don't waste your time. Dude refused to accept Putin tried to assassinate Navalny despite the entire world knowing otherwise. You'll not be able to convince fanatics of the truth.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Warenwolf » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 12:55

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 06:17

Don't waste your time. Dude refused to accept Putin tried to assassinate Navalny despite the entire world knowing otherwise. You'll not be able to convince fanatics of the truth.
:thumb_up:

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by EGO_Aut » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 13:59

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 06:17
Warenwolf wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 01:58
Cpt.Jericho wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 21:39
Since when does the CIA has reliable information? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq anyone?
Bit colored by your anti-Americanism? Are organizations like Russia Today, Internet Research Agency or FSB more reliable sources according to you?
Don't waste your time. Dude refused to accept Putin tried to assassinate Navalny despite the entire world knowing otherwise. You'll not be able to convince fanatics of the truth.
Oh yes Reuters is the only truth......
Because you mentioned Navalny, why did Putin not try to kill him before when he was in prison :gruebel:

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 14:31

EGO_Aut wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 13:59
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 06:17
Warenwolf wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 01:58


Bit colored by your anti-Americanism? Are organizations like Russia Today, Internet Research Agency or FSB more reliable sources according to you?
Don't waste your time. Dude refused to accept Putin tried to assassinate Navalny despite the entire world knowing otherwise. You'll not be able to convince fanatics of the truth.
Oh yes Reuters is the only truth......
Because you mentioned Navalny, why did Putin not try to kill him before when he was in prison :gruebel:
Probably because Putin thought prison would be enough to silence Navalny. But who really knows what goes on in that psychopath's mind?
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by red assassin » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 14:41

For anyone who isn't aware of this story, Bellingcat managed to manoeuvre one of the (would-be) assassins into giving a detailed description of what had happened on the phone to Navalny himself, in addition to a lot of other very thorough evidence.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by jlehtone » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 16:52

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 14:31
EGO_Aut wrote:
Mon, 17. Jan 22, 13:59
Oh yes Reuters is the only truth......
Because you mentioned Navalny, why did Putin not try to kill him before when he was in prison :gruebel:
Probably because Putin thought prison would be enough to silence Navalny. But who really knows what goes on in that psychopath's mind?
Possible.

If someone is killed in prison, then whodunit?
Random other inmate, but why? CIA sneaked in, through Russian security? Guards, by orders of Kreml?
Surely it is easier to frame some third party when the target is in the open?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by DanKara » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 10:34

clakclak wrote:
Sat, 18. Dec 21, 19:06
EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 17. Dec 21, 20:46
[...]The assurance to forego a NATO presence on the Russian border, which had been given as compensation for the German unification and western reorientation of the former Warsaw Pact states, was nonchalantly "forgotten" on both sides of the Atlantic.
I have heard this a lot, but so far nobody was able to point out who gave this assurance or when it was given. Care to enlighten me?
Coming from the former GDR and thus having witnessed the process of reunification of Germany I am (or better 'was') under the same impression as proposed by EGO_Aut. However, my search for a "proof" for this surfaced this German article from 2015 that essentially states the contrary:
My English is much too limited to translate this on the whole. But in (very) short: There were statements "to not expand NATO to the east" - but those were seemingly limited to the eastern part of Germany and (maybe) only meant for a limited period of time (as part of the reunification). Those came down to one statement in the so-called "2+4-Treaty". At that time, it was seemingly completely out of scope, that other eastern nations/states could or would apply for a NATO-membership...
I don't know the website, the organization or the author and have not searched or validated the sources/footnotes. But the way those facts were portrayed... it does have the ring of truth to it (imho, though that might mean nothing :gruebel: ).

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by EGO_Aut » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 14:42

.......Gorbachev was probably too trusting of the double game of western politicians and relied on the promises. At a meeting with Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, US Secretary of State James Baker promised that NATO would expand "not an inch further east". The well-known statement was "part of a cascade of assurances" made to Gorbachev and other officials in the Soviet government.........

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heise. ... 18651.html

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:26

When lightbulbs burn out in Russia, do you keep them around and yell at them for not working any more or do you replace them? I'm just wondering cuz the Soviet Union hasn't been around for decades and I fail to see why anyone should care what agreements were made with a country that doesn't exist.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by Warenwolf » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:39

DanKara wrote:
Tue, 18. Jan 22, 10:34
Well, if you read Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, signed by Russia and NATO in 1997 it clearly states (outline done by me):

respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;
Source: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/of ... _25468.htm

So all these claims Putin has directed towards the West is more for local consumption in Russia.
Point being is that in 1990, Soviet and Warsaw Pact still existed. Communists ruled in most of EE. Year later world changed.

What Baker meant with "not an inch further east" is also not as clear cut as Putin cheer leading crowd claims.

This is from an interview with Gorbachev:
RBTH: One of the key issues that has arisen in connection with the events in Ukraine is NATO expansion into the East. Do you get the feeling that your Western partners lied to you when they were developing their future plans in Eastern Europe? Why didn’t you insist that the promises made to you – particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East – be legally encoded? I will quote Baker: “NATO will not move one inch further east.”

M.G.: The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it.
Source: https://www.rbth.com/international/2014 ... 40673.html

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by DanKara » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 16:55

Warenwolf wrote:
Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:39
DanKara wrote:
Tue, 18. Jan 22, 10:34
Well, if you read ...
There seems to be no dissence between us. As you will see, if you let your browser translate that german article I cited.
I was merely interested to share, what my former misconception was based on, as that was what the poster named 'clakclak' asked for back in december'21.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War?

Post by EGO_Aut » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 19:50

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:26
When lightbulbs burn out in Russia, do you keep them around and yell at them for not working any more or do you replace them? I'm just wondering cuz the Soviet Union hasn't been around for decades and I fail to see why anyone should care what agreements were made with a country that doesn't exist.
And because of this dominance behavior, there is a diplomatic problem. And that really bothers me that NATO/US is so brain dead. US/UK press is washing the minds of their citizens, provoking a conflict for money.

The victims will be those in the conflict regions and mainly Europe (EU). Because they are dependent on RU Gas, and because of the USA NordSteam2 was not completed either. I'm very surprised that Putin hasn't turned off the gas yet, he could now freeze UKR and EU in winter!

I wouldn't be surprised if China takes advantage of the situation in the China Sea should there be NATO assistance in the UKR.
What do you think will happen if RU can persuade some Communist American countries to provide bases/ports to RU and deploy missiles there, or practice maneuvers on the west coast?

Best compromise would be not to expand NATO, and look for a goog relationship with RU. In UKR is civil war, they have to fight for themself-no need to make a new Vietnam, Syria, Irak aso.

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