Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 17:43

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 17:25
I only brought up ME as an example, but OK, I will scrub that off the list, I do own the first game, but not the others. But still, my point is, there is a slow direction that big publishers are going in, to try and change stuff in games.

If that applies to this game, its hard to say, I can't remember if there was any scenes in this game that would need changing, but as its a remake, there is still a lot that could go wrong. or the devs could surprise us and do a good game. I just hope it doesn't get ruined and rushed like many games these days. And lastly I hope it won't be a cash grab using the name, and they release a game that is nothing like the original. FF7 remake comes to mind, Anyway, I think we should wait and get more information before we judge this game too soon.
Eh? FF7 remake was amazing and very well received. Yeah, some elements of the story were revamped, or remade as the title implied, plus it ain't finished. There's 1, possibly 2 more whole releases of that game to wrap up the story and connect the dots from the first installment and the game itself was still very much FF7.

I get what you're trying to say but I don't think you're giving things their shot. So what if they do change up some elements of the game from the original? Can you say it'll be better or worse with what little we know about this game at this point? Nostalgia can only go so far, and KotoR is almost 20 years old now. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they take some creative liberties with the game. For example, I'd bet almost anything the entire game will be voice acted. That means changes in dialogue from the original. I, for one, would absolutely welcome that. If they stick to the old turn based combat system, I can't see that holding my interest for very long. For a game like this, id expect something more akin to what you see from Xenoblade Chronicles - auto attacks with triggered abilities, again another change I'd absolutely welcome.

But at the end of it all, it'll still be KotoR with the same major plot elements of the original, no matter what they do with it.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 18:50

FF7 Remake style of remake would be good approach (minus the chopping of the game to 2 or 3 episodes).

Something looking familiar, but new and different enough to actually wanting try it again (like books and games, I don't like to read the same story multiple times).

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 21:22

The original game was real time, I can't remember if it had a pause, but it certainly wasn't turn based.

The thing is, are they going to totally throw away the old script?
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I liked the fact you played as the bad guy all along, and depending on your choices, you could return to the light, or go back to your old ways.
I just wonder if they plan on changing that, or do a totally different story? If they change too much, then I say, its not much of a remake, as it goes too far from the original story. I suppose some changes would be nice, maybe try and add some filler to the Sith, or other stuff, but there is still danger they could change too much, and ruin it. its a fine line, and I think for some remakes, that line got crossed.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by red assassin » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 21:37

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 21:22
The original game was real time, I can't remember if it had a pause, but it certainly wasn't turn based.

The thing is, are they going to totally throw away the old script?
Spoiler
Show
I liked the fact you played as the bad guy all along, and depending on your choices, you could return to the light, or go back to your old ways.
I just wonder if they plan on changing that, or do a totally different story? If they change too much, then I say, its not much of a remake, as it goes too far from the original story. I suppose some changes would be nice, maybe try and add some filler to the Sith, or other stuff, but there is still danger they could change too much, and ruin it. its a fine line, and I think for some remakes, that line got crossed.
The original literally uses Dungeons and Dragons rules for turn-based combat.

Of course they're not going to totally throw away the old script? If they wanted to do a completely different story they could just do a KotOR 3 or something.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 21:52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trYZFE0eh5k

RTwP, it did use the D&D rules, yes, but it wasn't turned based.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Golden_Gonads » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:06

The word is (translation: rumour is) that there are going to alterations to the script, but that'll be to bring it into the Disney era Star Wars canon. Which makes sense, as back when Disney took over, they said all future games were going to be canonical, then they.... Didn't release much.

I can see an entirely new ending happening though to set up a new KotOR 2.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by red assassin » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:57

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 21:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trYZFE0eh5k

RTwP, it did use the D&D rules, yes, but it wasn't turned based.
D&D rules are turn based. KotOR pretends to be real time - it lets you queue actions up for multiple future turns and doesn't pause on the beginning of your turn (by default - you can turn this on though) - but it isn't. Each character rolls initiative and then gets a turn in sequence to roll for attacks or other actions. Which is why it feels so clunky.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:26

Its the same engine and ruleset to Neverwinter nights, Which I might add is also classed as a RTwP, Then there is the BG series, also CRPG, and RTwP. I know the ruleset is turn based, but there is a difference between a RTwP and a true turn based game, BG1 ad 2 compared to BG3.

Also that will certainly be changed, The question is, will they use the 5E ruleset, or chose a custom / different ruleset? or wil they opt to do the game as a true turn based?

Edit

uses a heavy modded D&D ruleset. adapted from the 3E ruleset,
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Vertigo 7
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:06

I think modern RPGs have evolved a bit beyond D&D rules these days. I see no reason to return to it just cuz that's what was done 20 years ago. SE did a fantastic job with modernizing the combat system from FF7's turn based stuff. No reason why anyone else can't do something similar. There's tons of RPGs that don't use D&D rules out there to take inspiration from, or even outright mimic. No need to go back to the dark ages.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:39

red assassin wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:57
D&D rules are turn based. KotOR pretends to be real time - it lets you queue actions up for multiple future turns and doesn't pause on the beginning of your turn (by default - you can turn this on though) - but it isn't. Each character rolls initiative and then gets a turn in sequence to roll for attacks or other actions. Which is why it feels so clunky.
Yeah, agreed. The same thing was true in Baldur's Gate, which used nominally real-time combat but you could tell that it was really characters taking turns and to-hit rolls under the skin--for instance, during one particular battle someone shot an arrow at one of my characters and I was able to move them out of the way, and the arrow turned to follow them! I ran that character all the way to the edge of the map and the arrow followed, hitting them anyway, because the guy who shot it had rolled positive on his "to hit" and it was thus going to hit regardless of anything I did in the real time world.

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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 09:39

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:06
I think modern RPGs have evolved a bit beyond D&D rules these days. I see no reason to return to it just cuz that's what was done 20 years ago. SE did a fantastic job with modernizing the combat system from FF7's turn based stuff. No reason why anyone else can't do something similar. There's tons of RPGs that don't use D&D rules out there to take inspiration from, or even outright mimic. No need to go back to the dark ages.
Pathfinder kingdoms and pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous wants to have a word with you, as pathfinder is a modded turn based ruleset that was modified from the 3E ruleset,
Pathfinder is a rich and complex fantasy RPG that uses the same d20 ruleset at the core of Dungeons & Dragons. Players take on the role of heroic adventurers, often explorers and scholars employed by the Pathfinder Society, who travel the world solving problems, unravelling mysteries and collecting treasure.
The problem is, to use WoTC rulesets, they will want to use people to use the 5E ruleset, that is one reason why when Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 were in development, they choose to use a different ruleset. but still influenced from the older D&D ruleset.

To say that people have moved away from using a turn based ruleset in a RTwP game, its totally off the mark.

So this remake yes, it will have to use another combat system, that is for sure, I just hope it will be decent, but until we see some actual gameplay footage, I guess we have to wait.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 18:01

Pathfinder is a Wizards of the Coast game. Of course they're gonna use D&D rules so they can mimic their tabletop games.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 20:27

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 18:01
Pathfinder is a Wizards of the Coast game. Of course they're gonna use D&D rules so they can mimic their tabletop games.
Wrong,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinde ... aying_Game

While it was modded from the 3.5E rules, pathfinder is maintained by Paizo Publishing, and besides, WoTC is maintaining 5E ruleset, that is the same ruleset that BG3 is using. So pathfinder and the WoTC versions are different, and maintained by two very different groups of people.
Beginning in 2002, Paizo took over publishing Dragon and Dungeon magazines, which were about the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) role-playing game, under contract to the game's publishers Wizards of the Coast. Wizards of the Coast chose not to renew the contract in early 2007 and Paizo began publishing the Pathfinder periodical line as a replacement.[1] In August 2007, Wizards of the Coast announced the pending release of the 4th edition of D&D, which replaced version 3.5. Many of the staff at Paizo were concerned about the more restrictive Game System License under which the 4th edition was being released.[2]

Instead of continuing to support D&D, Paizo released the stand-alone Pathfinder Roleplaying Game as a modified version of the version 3.5 game, under the Open Game License used by the older version.[3][4] Announced in March 2008, Pathfinder was designed over the course of a year using an open playtest model, where players could try the system and post their feedback on Paizo's website.[5]

Paizo announced a second edition of Pathfinder in 2018. Like the first edition, it made use of an open playtest to refine various mechanics of gameplay.[6]
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Vertigo 7
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 16:37

Ok, so it WAS a Wizard's of the Coast game. Point being it's very much D&D at its core.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:58

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 16:37
Ok, so it WAS a Wizard's of the Coast game. Point being it's very much D&D at its core.
Technically yes and no, But its not maintained by WoTC or created by them, and yes its a D&D game, but my point was, that D&D games (RTwP and turn based) are still very popular. for some to say, that we have moved away from this style of rule system is way off the mark, and I brought up the pathfinder games as recent examples.

But in the past we had

Pillars of eternity 1 and 2 (also customised 3.5 rules based from the 3.5 ruleset from WoTC
pathfinder 1 and 2 heavy modded version of the 3.5 ruleset.
Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness (on steam and EA access) not sure what ruleset this uses, but its RTwP, granted its still very rough around the edges, but the devs are slowly fixing stuff.

So anyone thinking that D&D based games or D&D inspired rulesets in games are dead, or last century are wrong.


@Vertigo 7
its just that in your post, you implied that WoTC made pathfinder, while in a way they did, in other they had nothing to do with it. and also like I said, WoTC is using its 5E ruleset, and from that I read, not everyone, including those that have played the TT version aren't keen on the changes made. Pathfinder is a valid alternative and is gaining popularity.

Its one reason why BG3 is turn based, as the 5E rules don't work that well in a real time environment, and also WoTC would expect all new games to use their newest ruleset rather then keep to their older generation of rules.

But still D&D is still very popular and their ruleset in games are still very popular to this day. Its just that we don't really see that many of them.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 19:58

Right, we don't see that many of them. Most modern RPGs don't use D&D rules for combat. It'd be wise of Aspyr to use an action based combat system like most modern RPGs do as well.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 20:06

Indeed, I just hope it has decent party management, if there is party management, and the AI isn't totally braindead. but yeah, having some kind of rule system would be ok, if it was decent, but if they do ditch the rule system for a total arcade game, and without a pause, then battles will be fast and furious and maybe too tricky to control. Of course, they could make it turn based. But I'm not sure that would go down well with many fans.

Again we just have to wait and see.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 20:28

Xenoblade and FF7 remake both stand out to me as recent and great examples to follow. All of the party members use their abilities to maximum effect, even if you're not in direct control of them (or can switch to them on the fly for a boost), but they react to the character you're in direct control, or you can command the other party members to initiate a chain action. Something like that where, like just off the top of my head, one party member stuns a target, a force user lifts then lifts the target into the air and a ranged weapon user follows up with a heavy ranged attack. Similar was doable in both Xenoblade and FF7 remake and all with limited inputs from a game controller.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by red assassin » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 22:06

matthewfarmery wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:58
Pillars of eternity 1 and 2 (also customised 3.5 rules based from the 3.5 ruleset from WoTC
This isn't true. PoE uses its own rules system which is real time, unlike the turn-based D&D system - each action has a length of time it takes to perform the action and a cooldown, and each character's actions are asynchronous with respect to the others. PoE itself is very inspired by the old D&D games like Baldur's Gate, but the combat rules are quite different in execution precisely to avoid the clunkiness you get from trying to pretend D&D rules aren't turn based, as per KotOR, BG, etc. Something like PoE's system might work pretty well for KotOR.
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Re: Knights of the Old Republic remake announced

Post by matthewfarmery » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:04

Well googling, POE 1, from answers, is still closer to 3.5, or at least inspired from. But POE 2 uses a completely different ruleset, but slightly closer to E4. So both games do use a different ruleset, But I stand corrected from what I said.

But your right mind, the combat doesn't feel as clunky as the BG series or icewind Dale, I just hated playing as a mage, and the limited spells per rest that you could have. still, your right mind again, that a customised ruleset like POE 1 /2 ruleset might work fine, At least then they won't need to contact WoTC for their blessing to use their ruleset, (which would be forced at 5E for sure.
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