Afghanistan

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BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:16

That article says it is unclear if there were suicide bombers in the vehicle, and we do not know what the intentions of the now dead people really were. I am inclined to believe the neighbours who were cited saying they weren't connected to ISIS or Daesh. Americans admited the strike was "over the horizon", so they don't know either whom they actually hit. They are "investigating" according to the chief command, which is limited to satellites, informants and overflights because the area is not under their control.

Opinion again:
One doesn't drop bombs if there are innocent people nearby. One doesnt't shoot though a crowd if there is a murderer inside, that's not an arithmetic exercise, it's human ethics. One is patient and helpful, of which I see no sign in such actions. To me it seems like a panic action to cover the retreat or a retribution for a previous attack, which already triggered a counter retribution. This is not a shooter game, and it is unclear if drone strikes prevent terrorism.

It is my opinion that in the contrary this only leads to more suffering and easy recruitment, but I must admit I am slightly upset by the news. It is not the first time that innocent bystanders were killed by a cowardly drone or air strike.

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:40

BaronVerde wrote:
Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:16
That article says it is unclear if there were suicide bombers in the vehicle, and we do not know what the intentions of the now dead people really were. I am inclined to believe the neighbours who were cited saying they weren't connected to ISIS or Daesh. Americans admited the strike was "over the horizon", so they don't know either whom they actually hit. They are "investigating" according to the chief command, which is limited to satellites, informants and overflights because the area is not under their control.

Opinion again:
One doesn't drop bombs if there are innocent people nearby. One doesnt't shoot though a crowd if there is a murderer inside, that's not an arithmetic exercise, it's human ethics. One is patient and helpful, of which I see no sign in such actions. To me it seems like a panic action to cover the retreat or a retribution for a previous attack, which already triggered a counter retribution. This is not a shooter game, and it is unclear if drone strikes prevent terrorism.

It is my opinion that in the contrary this only leads to more suffering and easy recruitment, but I must admit I am slightly upset by the news. It is not the first time that innocent bystanders were killed by a cowardly drone or air strike.
More than 500 people died in Coventry when Churchill allowed the Nazis to bomb the town despite him having advanced knowledge of the plan. Was that cowardly of him to allow those innocents to die?

Again, I'm seeing a lot of criticism, but I'm not seeing a lot of alternatives. How would you respond to a person with nothing to lose and a bomb in their car that's okay with killing themselves and as many people as possible?
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BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:53

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:40
How would you respond to a person with nothing to lose and a bomb in their car that's okay with killing themselves and as many people as possible?
This is an interesting discussion, but I fear it may be OT.

To show-off my mindset 8) : It is almost 40 years since a draft officer posted leading questions to me. I was short before my 18th birthday then and there was military service for boys in that country (Germany). A ridiculous idea today :-). I only could tell him I will *not* kill people. Apparently I was convincing enough and got around the military service.

To answer your question. I will try to convince them not to throw away their lives and that of others, I may try to physically hold them back or call help from others to try and avoid the worst, but I will not kill them. I will warn and shout and yell to all bystanders and hope that isolates the person. In the end I will walk away, very sad. But this is not going to happen since I will never get in direct contact with them, not where I live.

Hope that soothes the waves. Back to the poor people in Afghanistan :-)
Last edited by BaronVerde on Mon, 30. Aug 21, 16:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:59

BaronVerde wrote:
Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:53
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 30. Aug 21, 15:40
How would you respond to a person with nothing to lose and a bomb in their car that's okay with killing themselves and as many people as possible?
This is an interesting discussion, but I fear it may be OT.

To show-off my mindset 8) : It is almost 40 years since a draft officer posted leading questions to me. I was short before my 18th birthday then and there was military service for boys in that country (Germany). A ridiculous idea today :-). I only could tell him I will *not* kill people. Apparently I was convincing enough and got around the military service.

To answer your question. I will try to convince them not to throw away their lives and that of others, I may try to physically hold them back or call help from others to try and avoid the worst, but I will not kill them. In the end I will walk away, very sad. But this is not going to happen since I will never get in direct contact with them, not where I live.

Hope that soothes the waves. Back to the poor people in Afghanistan :-)
I'm sorry... what? Did you not read the part of the article that said
"US military forces conducted a self-defense unmanned over-the-horizon airstrike today on a vehicle in Kabul, eliminating an imminent ISIS-K threat to Hamid Karzai International Airport," the CENTCOM statement read.
"Significant secondary explosions from the vehicle indicated the presence of a substantial amount of explosive material," it added.
Not OT at all, it's exactly what happened.

Anyway, your response to an impending threat is to talk to fanatics in hopes to convince them to not carry out their mission but otherwise do nothing? Or rather get yourself killed in the process?
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BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 16:05

@Vertigo: We don't know if those now dead people actually did have bad intentions. According to the neighbours that was not the case and Americans just bombed innocent people. That cited "imminent threat" may not have existed at all.

Not responding to leading questions any more.
Last edited by BaronVerde on Mon, 30. Aug 21, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 16:09

BaronVerde wrote:
Mon, 30. Aug 21, 16:05
@Vertigo: We don't know if those now dead people actually did have bad intentions. According to the neighbours that was not the case and Americans just bombed innocent people. That statement may have no background in real life, except for the bombing.
Uhh huh... so, the presence of a bomb in a civilian vehicle is just a normal every day occurrence then? What kind of ordinance are you packing in your car?
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by CBJ » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 17:08

Time to stop making this a personal argument, guys. The last thing we need now is yet more conflict. :roll:

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mr.WHO
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 19:18

This is the most dignified look at the watch I have ever seen - good to see he's so busy at the moment - is it time for a nap, or a drone strike?
https://youtu.be/zttTNVWwYcc?t=260

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clakclak
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by clakclak » Tue, 31. Aug 21, 10:06

In other terrible news, the Taliban apparently have hung someone from a Black Hawk which they flew over Kandahar. (Normally I would link an article, but as most of them show the video I will not at this point.)

The symbolism should be clear. The US left military equipment worth 85 billion US dollar in Afgahnistan. To put that number into context, Russia's yearly military budget is roughly 62 billion US dollar. Or to put it into another context this is 4 times more money than Afgahnistan's yearly GDP.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 31. Aug 21, 10:13

While that is indeed terrible news, I wonder where they got the trained aircrew from. I also suspect that the more technical equipments abandoned will not remain working for very long. It might get sold to an external player though.
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BaronVerde
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 31. Aug 21, 11:48

Not defending nobody, but the Taliban seemingly didn't hang a dead body or captured US soldier, but an own quite alive member from a seized US Helicopter. They allegedly claimed to "patrol" and show presence over Kandahar. The guy (Daredevil ? Watchman ?) may just dangle about because of the instability, maybe (my interpretation) they just don't know how to handle the equipment properly, yet.

Source:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/t ... -v41072cd5

"Who's flying the thing ?" :o A helicopter license is no magic, I would say all the countries around there have flight schools. The pilot probably lacks the type rating, but flight manuals and maybe basic technical documentation for basic operation, check lists to fly the thing, etc, shouldn't be hard to get, probably ready to hand in some tray or compartment because needed all the time anyway. More specialized equipment is another thing, tho.

Disclaimer: All conditional phrases and unverified speculation .... :roll:

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Rug
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Rug » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 09:06

clakclak wrote:
Tue, 31. Aug 21, 10:06
The US left military equipment worth 85 billion US dollar in Afgahnistan. To put that number into context, Russia's yearly military budget is roughly 62 billion US dollar. Or to put it into another context this is 4 times more money than Afghanistan's yearly GDP.
For a bit more context, this is around 5 weeks of the US military budget ... It's crazy.

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 11:10

Rug wrote:
Mon, 6. Sep 21, 09:06
clakclak wrote:
Tue, 31. Aug 21, 10:06
The US left military equipment worth 85 billion US dollar in Afgahnistan. To put that number into context, Russia's yearly military budget is roughly 62 billion US dollar. Or to put it into another context this is 4 times more money than Afghanistan's yearly GDP.
For a bit more context, this is around 5 weeks of the US military budget ... It's crazy.

Rug
It looks impressive till you realized that, with exception of most crude equipment, most of it will fall into ruin in year or two, without proper logistic and maintenance.
The clock is ticking on Taliban and they will probably sell out most of this equipment while it's still in usable state.

It's similar to how big US corporations could afford to but an Aircraft Carrier, but wouldn't be able to maintain it due to constant money sink that would ruin them.

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by clakclak » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 12:45

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 6. Sep 21, 11:10
Rug wrote:
Mon, 6. Sep 21, 09:06
clakclak wrote:
Tue, 31. Aug 21, 10:06
The US left military equipment worth 85 billion US dollar in Afgahnistan. To put that number into context, Russia's yearly military budget is roughly 62 billion US dollar. Or to put it into another context this is 4 times more money than Afghanistan's yearly GDP.
For a bit more context, this is around 5 weeks of the US military budget ... It's crazy.

Rug
[...]

It's similar to how big US corporations could afford to but an Aircraft Carrier, but wouldn't be able to maintain it due to constant money sink that would ruin them.
Going off topic for one post, but if I did not do the math wrong this is not true at least for Walmart.
In 2013, the life-cycle cost per operating day of a [Gerald R. Ford class] carrier strike group (including aircraft) was estimated at $6.5 million by the Center for New American Security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R. ... ft_carrier

Walmart has a daily net income (net income, not operating income!) of roughly $37.5 million (13.7 billion a year), so Walmart, could in fact operate a carrier strike group.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 13:02

Doing ads for müsli, beach clothing, tooth paste, beer, etc. would be a funny and peaceful application, even if the boys and girls loose some of their shape :-)

----------------

More insight in the bloody American drone strike: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/05/poli ... index.html

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pjknibbs
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 13:52

clakclak wrote:
Mon, 6. Sep 21, 12:45
Walmart has a daily net income (net income, not operating income!) of roughly $37.5 million (13.7 billion a year), so Walmart, could in fact operate a carrier strike group.
Costco should be quaking in their boots. :P

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 6. Sep 21, 14:56

clakclak wrote:
Mon, 6. Sep 21, 12:45
Walmart has a daily net income (net income, not operating income!) of roughly $37.5 million (13.7 billion a year), so Walmart, could in fact operate a carrier strike group.
That's why I made comparison between corporation and Taliban - if the pool out significant budget and resources they could theoreticaly operate the quipment, but doing so would actually decreese their core operational capability.

just like I can't see Walmart operating Carrier battlegroup, I can't see Taliban pulling out the combined operation of Blackhawk squadron and ground attack planes against anyone.
Going this would basically puting huge "Here I am, shoot me" sight on Taliban back and there are probably still some old stingers from soviet times at someone besament :D

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 09:47

NY Times reports the US drone strike killed an aid worker picking up co-workers on their way to work, and loading water canisters. A normal activity in arid areas and where not everybody has a car. They also killed 7 children. The "secondary explosions" named by a us military spokesmen at first and repeated by others afterwards did not exist, according to locals the damage was done by the missile and shrapnell from its warhead.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/worl ... -isis.html

Others:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... ing-bombs/

The NY Times report is cited by several other news outlets.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 15:39

only problem with that, the 100lb hellfire missile have been equipped with kinetic warheads with a low yield explosive, designed to throw shrapnel, not vaporize targets. You can continue to play he said, she said, if you must.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 20:51

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 15:39
only problem with that, the 100lb hellfire missile have been equipped with kinetic warheads with a low yield explosive, designed to throw shrapnel, not vaporize targets. You can continue to play he said, she said, if you must.
That's what they say, blast and shrapnel killed the people, whose names are posted together with a reconstruction of what happened and witness account of the scene. I have updated the link and encourage you to read it. Imagine your family was killed in such a way, falling dead from the stairs torn apart from shrapnel and blast from a missile out of the blue. A little shock therapy may help condemning such acts in the future. In the report, the US military is accused of lying on several accounts, specifically the claim of hours long observation, that they claimed to have asserted there were no bystanders, and the claim that there was a secondary explosion. The act is neither a good farewell nor is it suitable to keep people from becoming terrorists.

Attention, rant ahead, by no means personal, but slightly upset, I admit:
It is not an isolated case of bombing the wrong people. Just in Afghanistan (plus elsewhere, e.g. Syria), there where even cases of parties and hospitals that were erroneously targeted by drone strikes. Personally, I was in Italy when a cowboy pilot flying too fast and much too low cut off a cable car, killing more than 40. Somebody I knew lost a relative. Later the Americans were lying that the cable wasn't on the charts and took him out of the country before Italian police could get him. It was a dare and a catastrophy waiting to happen, those idiots did it regularly trying to fly under the cables in a narrow valley. Fine allies.

A US military ship once ordered me in Spanish waters (Bay of Cadiz) to change course. I was the skipper of a sailing boat, I can't change course, I am obliged to hold course until any danger of a collision is over. I later filed a complaint with the Spanish authorities. They said: "fine allies".

In 2001 a submarine performing reckless maneouvers disregarding basic rules of navigation sunk a Japanese fishing boat, causing a lot of anger among their allies. And surely we all know about the crashes their navy causes every other year with merchant ships. Fortunately the merchant ships are more durable than the grey ships. Murricans frequently sail without navigation lights and AIS switched off, even during the night. They appear on the radar, though, but there are international rules of navigation (COLREG) which they regularly break, more often than not provoking deadly accidents. There's an old joke involving an American aircraft carrier and a light house, which many people initially take serious, until told it is a joke.

Yeah, rant finished. But the times are changing. China is becoming and economically is already #1. Future has other superpowers on the scene, as long as planetary habitabilty allows for superpowers to exist ...


Back to something more productive than ranting :-)

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