Afghanistan

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Teladi CEO
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Teladi CEO » Mon, 6. Dec 21, 03:19

Can we please stop calling them Isis? Referring to them as Isis not only implies a legitimacy that they do not have, but Isis is a 5000 plus year old goddess who is both culturally and historically more important to the human race as a whole than this group that should be called Daesh instead. I know we are not taught about Egyptian mythology as much as we used to be so here is the wiki for those who did not learn about her in school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis
Admittedly when in first heard about ISIS back in 2017 I was confused if they were talking about the god or not. I agree that calling Isis a “state” legitimizes it; however I am unsure of what else to call it. Daesh is no better (in my opinion) since it pretty much means “one who crushes” to and ISIL is simply switching Syria with Levant.

I think that unfortunately is the plan, ISIS and the Taliban will weaken themselves then the NRF or US backed forces will retake control. Even worse is the amount of civilians who will undoubtedly die. The only way for peace in Afghanistan is for the conflict to end in peace, no government will gain total legitimacy if it defends on the protection of a foreign power. The Taliban and NRF need to find a median between the two of them and find peace to fight ISIS
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clakclak
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by clakclak » Mon, 6. Dec 21, 09:17

Incubi wrote:
Mon, 6. Dec 21, 01:17

[...]

In this case I just want the US to finish the job, take advantage of the fight between the Taliban and the Daesh and just destroy them both. [...]
Let's assume you could do that, what then? Install yet another corrupt government people will eventually rebel against and call it a day?
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Incubi
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Incubi » Mon, 6. Dec 21, 10:20

clakclak wrote:
Mon, 6. Dec 21, 09:17
Incubi wrote:
Mon, 6. Dec 21, 01:17

[...]

In this case I just want the US to finish the job, take advantage of the fight between the Taliban and the Daesh and just destroy them both. [...]
Let's assume you could do that, what then? Install yet another corrupt government people will eventually rebel against and call it a day?
With what you snipped, you put that a bit out of context. It wasn't exactly a huge post but...
To answer your question, I would hope my government doesn't make that mistake again. I don't think that that should be up to us. The people who live there should be involved with that. My standpoint; after all, was let's get out, but in a way that we can stay out.

Also, it is a shame that more people associate the name Isis with a terrorist group than one of the more important historical goddesses in human history and culture.

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by matthewfarmery » Mon, 6. Dec 21, 13:09

It is a sad state of affairs, no mistake. And it won't be over until the fat lady sings. Which in this case might be NEVER! Should the US / UK / NATO get involved? I don't know. I admit that Afghanistan is on a downward spiral, its not going to get better anytime soon. I think if western forces go back, they going to be shot at by all directions. Whatever agreements the US had with the Taliban will be in flames. Of course civilians will suffer. and many will die, but I think we probably should let the country do its own thing. harsh as that sounds, we go back there, we won't be coming out again for a loonnnnng time. So we should never have gone in the first place, or should never have withdrawn in the first place. But what is done is done.

End of the day, the country could very well cause problems in the future, especailly if one side like ISIS does manage to take control, than the previous war would have been for nothing, and the serviceman and woman who died in that country will be for nothing. dark days.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by matthewfarmery » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 13:33

I had to post this, last night I seen the first advert from UNICEF on save the children in Afghanistan. I just knew they would do this, before this, it was Yemen. But to me, I really don't think we or UNICEF should help Afghanistan in any way. The top western allies pull out of Afghanistan, Trump and Biden made that perfectly clear. Now the country is spiralling in chaos, there is no point going back there. Those two wanted that, much of Afghanistan / Taliban wanted that. If those people / groups really gave a damn about the children in that country, then the allied forces should not have withdrawn. And besides, I never seen a save the children add for Afghanistan during the ten years of war there. So why start now?

My other problem is, security, security for the personal, and whatever supplies, they can muster. and logistics. (planes airfields) I'm sure that ISIS won't take kindly to them been there, as for the Taliban, again, probably the same, allied forces burnt all their bridges when we withdrawn. Lets not forgot that mad exodus of getting as many people out of that country as possible (after the withdraw order was given) , and of course, the ISIS attack on the airfield.

Never been keen on all these charities, like water aid, and their false promises, save girls in Africa and Indian etc (can't be done as that is cultural and other problems. (but that is another topic)

I feel that such charities have no right to poke their noses in places they don't belong. And let the countries do their own thing. As for Afghanistan. they made their bed, again, there is no point trying to save children, after all, the war between ISIS and the Taliban may last years. unless allied forces plan to go back, then things might be different. But no, we have no right now to interfere.

Harsh as this may sound. on top of that, its not children who will suffer, but civilians who wanted a better life but now hide in fear. So again, we should leave it well alone.
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Alan Phipps
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 15:32

The West has very lttle leverage to influence what happens next in Afghanistan now. I don't think that the West can/should hold back on humanitarian aid because many people there have no other options (a double-bind when the West turns back as illegal immigrants many genuine refugees that got out, yet also would not help the ones that cannot get out).

Perhaps a concerted international aid policy could give a little leverage to influence some of what happens there while saving a few from experiencing the more extreme hardships. I do agree though that policing it in-country against theft, fraud, corruption, misuse and belligerence is extremely problematic and will require some very brave humanitarian volunteers to deliver and administer it. It isn't as if they can call on the local authorities for support if those nominal 'authorities' are the ones doing the abuse.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by matthewfarmery » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 15:52

Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 15. Dec 21, 15:32
The West has very lttle leverage to influence what happens next in Afghanistan now. I don't think that the West can/should hold back on humanitarian aid because many people there have no other options (a double-bind when the West turns back as illegal immigrants many genuine refugees that got out, yet also would not help the ones that cannot get out).

Perhaps a concerted international aid policy could give a little leverage to influence some of what happens there while saving a few from experiencing the more extreme hardships. I do agree though that policing it in-country against theft, fraud, corruption, misuse and belligerence is extremely problematic and will require some very brave humanitarian volunteers to deliver and administer it. It isn't as if they can call on the local authorities for support if those nominal 'authorities' are the ones doing the abuse.
That is the problem, how can such charities really say that your money will go to where its needed? they can't. Oh sure, such charities might try and give some hope that money is been spent in the right place. But look at Africa, Water aid for example, been doing adverts for at least 20 years plus. Yet Africa will never get fixed, too many problems, that and its now the centre hub for two Covid strains. You might as well give Africa a blank check. and see if that will sort out the problems. But no western country will do that. also there will be too much corruption. And this will no doubt be the same for Afghanistan. If not worse. Lets say I donate £100, how do I know that that £100 will go and save children? or will 60% or more will be stolen, destroyed before it gets there, or once it gets there?

again, with the country in chaos, two sides who will shoot whoever moves. and may take those resources for themselves. basically there isn't much point. Unless there is a peacekeeping force, then whatever supplies that get into the country will quickly vanish. Security will be a major problem. Plus this war will not be over soon. So again, Afghanistan will need a blank check for medical and food supplies. And that won't happen.

All that we can do is watch and wait. But to help that country, will be total pointless.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by CBJ » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 17:07

So because there are some adults in a country who will try to exploit the situation, we should just leave the kids (who have no say in what the adults are doing) to die. Got it. I guess you'd also like to see an end to things like unemployment benefits back home, because there are some people who exploit that too; never mind that kids would go hungry here too.

Worrying that not all of your £100 of charity donation will go to the people who need it is such a first world problem. I'm sure a recipient of whatever share of it makes it past any admin costs and corruption would take a somewhat different view of the situation, especially if it meant the difference between eating and not eating. That's not to say that governments and charities shouldn't try to make sure as much of possible of what they give actually gets to the intended people, but just giving up helping anyone because the system isn't perfect is... um, I'm actually not going to finish that sentence.

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Re: Afghanistan

Post by Mailo » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 18:06

There was a report a few days ago in the german SPIEGEL, where they posted an interview with the lady that is the head of the Afghanistan branch of the World Food Programme. According to her, this winter up to one million children will die of hunger. But hey, f... them, their own fault they were born in the wrong country, right?

And yes, there are scam charities. But there are also non-scam charities.

One thing I found interesting in the article is that apparently now they are almost completely free to go wherever they want, the Taliban do not interfere at all with the distribution of food, nor do they restrict who gets anything. In November, they distributed food to seven million people. She can actually interact with most Taliban, some even said it was a good thing that a woman was leading the World Food Programme because "women are more emphatic". Of course, there are also those who don't look at her lest they lose their souls or something, but it seems to be a workable situation. Much more workable in fact than before the retreat of the allies, because the danger due to fighting is almost completely gone.
No, there are no guarantees that the situation will stay this stable. On the other hand, it is guaranteed that letting a million children die will drive people to extremism, as they have nothing left to lose. There usually are reasons why people turn to extremism. Keeping these people alive through the winter will probably do more good in fighting terrorism than the 20 years of occupation ever did, especially as everyone will know that the Taliban sat around and did absolutely nothing while people like this lady brought food to starving kids.

She also said they need 2.6 billion dollars for the whole of 2022. Compare that to the 300 million dollars PER SINGLE DAY that the Afghanistan war cost (source) ... basically one week of war pays for food for a whole year for a nation.
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Re: Afghanistan

Post by greypanther » Wed, 15. Dec 21, 22:15

CBJ wrote:
Wed, 15. Dec 21, 17:07
I'm sure a recipient of whatever share of it makes it past any admin costs and corruption would take a somewhat different view of the situation, especially if it meant the difference between eating and not eating.
Very much this.

Especially considering that when, in the best case scenarios, with the best charities, only a shockingly small percentage of the donation gets through to those that need it most. Call it admin or corruption, it does not matter. It still means that donations/aid should not stop, even if the vast majority is diverted, which it often is. It is an acceptable cost, that say ten cats get fatter, if it means one family survives the winter, imo.
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