W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

[BaronVerde]

I know that MS won't go under, but I'm not that pleased about them, and I doubt every home owner that is on a limited budget will like the prospect of having to splash out on new hardware. especially in the current climate, and increased costs, [..]

... and when it is avoidable for many if not most of them to do so.

[matthewfarmery]

I was in hospital recently, (had a nasty insect bite) and te screens behind the doc, I'm, pretty sure the OS was still windows 7, I had a feeling it was. And the NHS (national health service) in the UK, is struggling. so I doubt they will have the money to upgrade systems to support windows 11, especially if some computers / servers are still on windows 7. So again, it might be easy to say, businesses can upgrade. But reality is, those of the small business end especially in the UK / EU with raising costs. May have to decide what to do. and again I doubt many will be happy with this change.

So very wrong of MS to think everyone will have the funds to able to afford £2000+ systems.

[Gavrushka]

Just did a quick check, as I doubted the validity of needing £2,000 for a Win 11 PC, and there are plenty available sub £500. - As I understand it now, it's just 4th generation and back processors which aren't capable of running Win 11, or am (again) mistaken?

[Vertigo 7]

Also running an old system, 4770k. So no windows 11 for me, but then again, I really hate the new UI in 11, that looks very bad. (from the videos I seen from it)

I think 11 is not going to be popular at all, both for businesses and users, especially in the current climate. I can sort of understand that MS wants new hardware for win 11, it will be the instruction sets and other hardware features that will be needed. But the big problem is, MS has basically cut out a good chunk of the market. So I doubt 11 is going to be anywhere a success that MS will have hoped for.

And lets not forget, it has made some huge mistakes in the past, and even had to U turn on many of them. I doubt I will be upgrading anytime soon. So MS can jump of a cliff for now.

You couldn't be more wrong. For starters, there's a ton of baked in back end features of Windows 11 that are going to be very attractive for enterprise orgs, such as the new SMB compression method, and the piloting currently underway for delivering system updates. 2ndly, enterprise orgs are not deploying ancient hardware to their end users. Most are leasing systems and replacing them every 3-4 years. Most are already running desktop systems that are perfectly capable of running 11. Even still, it'll likely be another year, at the earliest, before they start rolling it out to end users.

People whine every time MS changes the front end UI. This is nothing new. Come on dude, you predicted doom and gloom for CDPR yet they're still here - and they had a bonified set back. Why do you think MS is going to belly up because they're opting not to support some computer from the stone age?

I know that MS won't go under, but I'm not that pleased about them, and I doubt every home owner that is on a limited budget will like the prospect of having to splash out on new hardware. especially in the current climate, and increased costs, it might be a bit better situation in America, but not here in the UK. And I can't afford a new system, and in 4 years time I will have too. So I don't really care much for this forced route from MS, but like I said, they made many mistakes, and had to U turn on a few of them. Alos there is a problem with supply and demand. So again the current climate isn't favourable for a mass world upgrade to get to run win 11. Maybe in the US, businesses will have systems that can run win 11 ok, but else where, I doubt that will be the case.

And when those old machine die, and they're already beyond any warranty period and there's no replacement parts available? You expecting most of those refusing to upgrade to just throw their hands up and say "oh well! no computer for us!"

Hey look, I get it, there's die hard boffins out there that refuse to shell out to replace their old computers. There's people still running Windows XP to this day for that very reason. If you're one of them, thats on you for making that choice. Despite your accusation, MS isn't forcing you, or anyone else, to do jack. You can stay on your machine and keep using it, if it's still functional, beyond 10's EOL. If you wanna go to linux, again, that's up to you. The vast majority of people will upgrade to 11 with or without you being part of it, as they have always done.

I know, I know, MS is the big evil company that's responsible for all your woes. But take a step back and ask yourself - what does MS really owe you? Why are you entitled to something they're not offering?

[matthewfarmery]

Just did a quick check, as I doubted the validity of needing £2,000 for a Win 11 PC, and there are plenty available sub £500. - As I understand it now, it's just 4th generation and back processors which aren't capable of running Win 11, or am (again) mistaken?

If you want a basic system with a low end card, then sure, but quarter of that cost factors in the Gcard, and many of them are pretty steep price.

@Vertigo 7

In a certain way, it is forced, ok maybe not now, but in a few years time, otherwise, support for windows 10 will drop, same with 7, no one supports 7 apart from a handful of stuff. So the upgrade was forced. otherwise, no more security patches, no games will run on 7, etc. once 10 is no longer supported, its either a forced upgrade or switch to something else.

How is that not forced?

[BaronVerde]

One may get a 500 quid PC for windows 11, but that will hardly be good for gaming or even reasonable work. A Ryzen 5 with graphics, cheap board and ram is already 500,- (EUR)

Just bought a new PC for 2,300,- EUR and didn't even get the ram I wanted, that would have been ~150,- more for fast 32GB 3600 CL16, which was unavailable at the time of order. Now I got only 2*8GB and will have to upgrade at some time. But there's also a new monitor included for 300,-. That was my replacement cost, though unrelated to windows. But the thread title is "or ?"

btw.: A year or two ago IBM teamed up with the open source community because they were looking for Cobol programmers. Yes, Cobol. Reason was that many public services in USA still ran and run IBM hardware from the 90s and COVID brought them to the limits and beyond. They don't have the people to service the code base, or the resources to upgrade the ancient equipment.

Modern IBM mainframes run IBM's own Unix implementation or Linux.

[Vertigo 7]

Just did a quick check, as I doubted the validity of needing £2,000 for a Win 11 PC, and there are plenty available sub £500. - As I understand it now, it's just 4th generation and back processors which aren't capable of running Win 11, or am (again) mistaken?

If you want a basic system with a low end card, then sure, but quarter of that cost factors in the Gcard, and many of them are pretty steep price.

@Vertigo 7

In a certain way, it is forced, ok maybe not now, but in a few years time, otherwise, support for windows 10 will drop, same with 7, no one supports 7 apart from a handful of stuff. So the upgrade was forced. otherwise, no more security patches, no games will run on 7, etc. once 10 is no longer supported, its either a forced upgrade or switch to something else.

How is that not forced?

Who said games won't run on it when MS stops supporting the OS? There's no kill switch embedded that stops the OS from functioning when it hits EOL - that just means MS stops releasing patches and providing free support. Nothing is stopping you from installing and patching 7 or XP to their last released patch levels. There's plenty of games and such that will run on both. Yeah, sure, developers will stop supporting old OS's when the market moves away from them, but that's just life dude. Auto manufacturers stopped producing vehicles that ran on leaded gas, back in what, the 70's or something like that. AC manufacturers stopped producing compressors that use old freon. But no one is forcing you to follow suit. You can still stick to your old ways and yell at the kids to get off your lawn if that's what you wanna do.

[BaronVerde]

MS Windows has 'kill switches' or let's say refuses to work properly, play things, copy stuff, install software, ... since a long time, often advertised as having enhanced security or some such.

I installed an old windows 7 CD 3 or 4 years ago, there were no updates available, and it was only service pack 1.

MS forces people to update, or go away. It is their choice.

[Vertigo 7]

ok? MS ended mainstream support for 7 in 2015 and it was only on SP1. and no, there's no kill switches. If that were the case, the few 2008 and windows 7 systems we still have running old medical imaging software wouldn't be functional.

[BaronVerde]

No, the explorer window said that the time for updates had expired and there will not be support for windows 7 any more, iirc. And I believe there was a service pack II, but I may be wrong. I recall there were discussions about the quality of that newer service pack ...

7 was the last Windows versions I used.

[Vertigo 7]

No, there was no official SP2 released. All of the Windows 7 updates are available to this very day on MS's website. https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =Windows+7

[jlehtone]

No, the explorer window said that the time for updates had expired and there will not be support for windows 7 any more, iirc.

I don't think that Windows 7 says so in isolated network. Perhaps, if it could reach Microsoft servers, but who would connect an obsolete system to public network, regardless of how "really fine OS" it has?

I've seen a bit of lamentation due to RHEL 8 not supporting a decade old RAID controllers and NICs. Red Hat did release RHEL 8 in 2019 and will support it to 2029. Same tale as with Windows 11, except that servers and gaming machines tend to have different users (?).

A example "enterprise" (well, public sector) "normal desktop" here has Intel i5-10500, 16 GB RAM, and 256 GB SSD for ~500 euro (VAT 0%). Intel IGP, and that is considered fine for work. By "them" -- all "work" is not equal.

[BaronVerde]

I don't think that Windows 7 says so in isolated network. Perhaps, if it could reach Microsoft servers, but who would connect an obsolete system to public network, regardless of how "really fine OS" it has?

I had to, because of a specific driver for my telescope, which is by now available for Linux as well. Though the scope is gone. Those days I had to connect to the network for activation (or kill switch) and the update started, idk. if I had to click something. A red ribbon appeared telling me 'not for you any more'. II used the setup only for a year or so on a crap PC until I had proper Linux drivers.

I've seen a bit of lamentation due to RHEL 8 not supporting a decade old RAID controllers and NICs. Red Hat did release RHEL 8 in 2019 and will support it to 2029. Same tale as with Windows 11, except that servers and gaming machines tend to have different users (?).

... and that with some knowledge one could do their own drivers. I've done so for a printer that wasn't available on Linux (there are even templates), try that in Windows, if there's no driver, you're lost (Edit: or must pay because docu isn't for everyone)

A example "enterprise" (well, public sector) "normal desktop" here has Intel i5-10500, 16 GB RAM, and 256 GB SSD for ~500 euro (VAT 0%). Intel IGP, and that is considered fine for work. By "them" -- all "work" is not equal.

I understand why public sector take their time ...

That was a joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPnGC1__Xqg

---------------------------------
Windows 7 SP2:
https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... l-it-that/

Seems I recalled correctly, there was a big discussion, some even refused SP 2 because of quality issues, and MS stopped the SP path for individual updates. Hope that is not totally wrong.

Edit: Point was, there were no updates installed though a lot of them must have been available, an evidence that MS forces more o less gently to switch versions. Which isn't exactly a secret, and which one doesn't have to endure.

[Vertigo 7]

You were right in only that there were updates released after SP1, but there never was officially a SP2 released by MS. Still, MS isn't forcing anyone to upgrade against their will, despite delusions to the contrary.

[Terre]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

Windows 11 known issues and notifications
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... 728msgdesc

Microsoft Windows 11 Support Statement (Inkjet Printer) from Brother.
https://support.brother.com/g/b/osconte ... n&ossid=14

[Vertigo 7]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

Windows 11 known issues and notifications
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... 728msgdesc

Microsoft Windows 11 Support Statement (Inkjet Printer) from Brother.
https://support.brother.com/g/b/osconte ... n&ossid=14

You might receive a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print in environments in which the print server and print client are in different times zones.

Note The affected environments described in this issue are not commonly used by devices designed for home use. The printing environments affected by this issue are more commonly found in enterprises and organizations.

-pretty significant detail to leave out and not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

[jlehtone]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

... not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

That is probably same or related to ... recent weeks we were not able to print if (Enterprise) Windows 10 was not up to date and OS X clients could not print at all. Something about print server. My Linux has had troubles authenticating to ("SMB") server all the time, but at the time printing was supposedly impossible ... I was able to print. Point is, nobody had Windows 11; one can perhaps blame MS at large, but not 11 in particular.

[Vertigo 7]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

... not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

That is probably same or related to ... recent weeks we were not able to print if (Enterprise) Windows 10 was not up to date and OS X clients could not print at all. Something about print server. My Linux has had troubles authenticating to ("SMB") server all the time, but at the time printing was supposedly impossible ... I was able to print. Point is, nobody had Windows 11; one can perhaps blame MS at large, but not 11 in particular.

Ehh, I dunno. Wouldn't think that'd be related. There's been some changes to the print queue service to remediate the print nightmare CVE and it's entirely possible something got overlooked that impacted printing from a different time zone - something in of itself that wouldn't be a routine occurrence. I'd imagine the total number of impacted users would be pretty small. But if there was something that broke printing in general for non-windows clients, with as much printing that goes on with all of the hospitals my org deals with, emails would have been flying and it's been quiet on that front. Perhaps someone got over zealous with security policies or something trying to secure the print servers?

[jlehtone]

Perhaps someone got over zealous with security policies or something trying to secure the print servers?

I would not be surprised.

[Chips]

I was in hospital recently, (had a nasty insect bite) and te screens behind the doc, I'm, pretty sure the OS was still windows 7, I had a feeling it was. And the NHS (national health service) in the UK, is struggling. so I doubt they will have the money to upgrade systems to support windows 11, especially if some computers / servers are still on windows 7. So again, it might be easy to say, businesses can upgrade. But reality is, those of the small business end especially in the UK / EU with raising costs. May have to decide what to do. and again I doubt many will be happy with this change.

So very wrong of MS to think everyone will have the funds to able to afford £2000+ systems.

Erm, won't that be because software they're running isn't compatible (or hasn't been tested fully) with windows 8/10/11 etc. Otherwise they'd have rolled out windows 10 upgrade surely.

Where was I working where it was Windows XP still only 5 years ago They've moved on now... but it's not the OS version that limited them per se. It was the simple fact that programs/applications they rely upon were either non compatible or more likely, not tested to ensure working fine, with a newer version. I know some were legacy and the cost of re-writing was ... lets put it this way. Big budgets required, and since the network was air gapped, they deemed it not significant enough risk at that time to prioritise their budgets for OS upgrades.