W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

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cdeeks
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W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by cdeeks » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 14:12

So since MS have announced W11 and more importantly HDR and Direct storage that will load assets directly to the gpu and not through the CPU will this improve performance or not? I understand ES are currently working on performance improvements on the game regardless but is it worth updating to W11 for this feature ??

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by CBJ » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 15:02

I know everyone loves to read about the latest technology, but actual development work to make use of it takes time. In this case we know little or nothing about what it has to offer for X4 and we don't have a copy to try the game out with. Anything we said about it at this point would be pure speculation, which would achieve nothing other than to create false expectations. When we have actually had a chance to investigate, and there have something concrete to say on the matter, we will do so. Please also bear in mind that until we have had a chance to thoroughly test the game on a new OS, we will not be in a position to provide support to anyone else doing so.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by alt3rn1ty » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 15:37

.. updating to Windows 11 ???

I think its at Windows Developer stage still, or are we talking pirate versions of development ISO's possibly with malware?
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 16:16

Auto HDR offered by Windows 11 is not really a replacement for true HDR. In theory X4 could support true HDR now as the Vulkan API supports HDR. However it is not that simple as the render needs to be designed around HDR to take advantage of it. Even then there might need to be parallel renders to support "SDR" for people without good HDR capable displays. I doubt mixing the two together would produce good results, sacrificing the quality of either one, or even both.

Direct Storage should also be coming to Window 10, since as far as I can tell Microsoft has not mentioned the feature as being exclusive to Windows 11, only that Windows 11 uses it as a core part of the OS. That said it is highly likely that only Direct3D12 based games can take advantage of DirectStorage, which would rule out X4 since that uses the Vulkan API. Last I checked there were not any Vulkan equivalent solutions in development or at least publicly announced. Even Microsoft's solution sounds sub optimal since it still relies on copying data to CPU and then to GPU unlike the direct paths offered by consoles. If the technology could work then it would certainly improve asset loading related performance, but for now it is still a long way off from materialising.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by CBJ » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 17:17

Moved to off-topic. :)

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by matthewfarmery » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 19:24

I remember when MS said that windows 10 will be the last OS they will make. (or words to that effect) I really wonder what made them change their minds? But from what I have googled, there doesn't seem to be much on what windows 11 will do or will improve. Then again, windows 10 I think will still be around for at least another 9 / 10 years.

I still miss windows 7, since moving to windows 10, the OS has been a bit of a BEE, windows slow to boot up, tried a few video links, no success. (but seems to be a major issue for a fair few users)

As for 11, I'm not sure f it will be a paid or free upgrade? and while windows 10 was suppose to be the last main OS from MS, which was suppose to have been updated with new features as time goes along. But some updates have been nothing short of a disaster. I personally am losing faith in MS and in windows itself. All in all, unless the new OS is really a upgrade upgrade from windows 10, (something I highly doubt) then upgrading to windows 11 might not be a good idea when it first comes out. So for me, given Ms current track record, better to wait and see what happens. But personally I wouldn't get your hopes up too much about the new OS, MS has made a fair few promises and has been broken. So can you really trust their word?
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alt3rn1ty
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by alt3rn1ty » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 20:45

I have a tip for when it does come out ..

Apparently when you first install it, there is seemingly no way out of making an online account (as opposed to a traditional Local Computer account you log in to), sounds to me like the next edition will be forcing people to use the cloud and track more about you, anyway :

When it comes to the Make a Microsoft Account and get online dialogues - Press Alt + F4 (the hard wired key combination to close a window)
Then you will be offered a way to make a local user account again.

This might just be a glitch with Development of Windows 11, but given the way MS forced Win 10 and OneDrive / Cortana / Keyboard logging on us by default I suspect its intended behaviour until the public moan enough to embarrass MS (read; Uptake not going as well as expected), by which time it will be too late.
Just dont give Windows any online connectivity until you are happy you have stopped the immediate data scoop happening.

Credit to whoever Steve Gibson noted this from in Security Now Episode 824

Edit : Quote ..
Offline Accounts: The other potential gotcha hit people who do not wish to login to Microsoft
during installation and who would like to create an offline login account. Although Win11 Pro
allows for bypassing this in the setup UI, the Home edition of Win11 does not. So if Win11 is
being installed on hardware containing a built-in Win10 Home OEM key, it will insist upon the
creation of an online account. Win11 Pro offers the “I don’t have Internet” option to bypass the
establishment of a connection, but that’s been deliberately removed from the options for the
Home edition.
Fortunately there’s a surprising workaround for that, too. It was discovered by Adam, whose
moniker is “Warwagon” in the grc.securitynow newsgroup. It turns out that it’s possible to
simply close the insistent “Let’s connect you to the Internet” dialog by hitting the Alt+F4 key
combination. Adam shared his discovery with the guys at Neowin and they wrote the following:
“However, here’s where Adam’s simple workaround came in handy, which is both amusing and
surprising; When Windows 11 Home prompts users to connect to a network, a simple ‘Alt + F4’
shortcut closes the prompt, and the screen proceeds directly to the local account creation page –
something that is never offered to users in the usual process. This bypasses the entire Microsoft
account login screen, which is a nifty little trick for those who want to avoid signing into their accounts
during the OOBE [out of box experience] process, especially in these early days when most installs of
the OS are happening on virtual machines.”
https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-11- ... orkaround/
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CPU - 10th Gen' Core I7 10870H 2.2-5.0ghz, GPU - NVidia Geforce RTX 3060, VRAM 6gb GDDR5,
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by greypanther » Sat, 26. Jun 21, 21:17

The bad news is that they now say all support for Windows 10 will end in 2025, but upgrade to Windows 11 will be free for all Windows 10 users, though some say there could be doubt if this will be so for Pro users, or just the Home version. :(

Also there could well be some compatibility issues, as in, some PCs will not be able to use it. Evidently you will need a TPM chip, version 2.0 to instal it at all. My 9 month old PC, even though of a good spec does not have one at all, nor even the header to pop one in. It does however have a place on the motherboard where the TPM header should be, but it will take some motherboard surgery, to get one. I am not amused. :evil:

Here: https://www.techtelegraph.co.uk/what-is ... important/
Windows 11 was announced on June 24 and came with a rather unexpected surprise, the presence of TPM 2.0 as one of the minimum requirements for setting it up. Given the fact that TPM is historically a business/enterprise feature, it is therefore less common in DIY, custom-built and boutique-sourced rigs.

Adding TPM, for many, turns out to be a doddle for whoever knows how to access a BIOS and enable Firmware TPM (or fTPM) but then again, your mileage will vary and for many, many users, that might mean having to either add a TPM module or buy a compatible Windows 11 PC when they come to the markett.
Also there are other minimum requirements, not very clear what they all will be, but this website offers an app, to check compatibility: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11
Just scroll down to the bottom of the page for the download.

I phoned PC specialist, the people who built my PC last September, they had no clue about this requirement, indeed the tech man I spoke too was not even clear what a TPM chip was, nor when it came out. ( 2008. ) :gruebel:

They seem to be pushing the cloud, very much. For me, they are going to push me to Apple or Linux. ( Which to be fair, I have been threatening to do for years. )

Edit: Just thought I would add, I know several people who as far as they knew, had a compatible PC, from the written minimum, only to find when the ran the Microsoft app, they did not have a compatible PC. :roll:
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by red assassin » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 00:35

greypanther wrote:
Sat, 26. Jun 21, 21:17
Also there could well be some compatibility issues, as in, some PCs will not be able to use it. Evidently you will need a TPM chip, version 2.0 to instal it at all. My 9 month old PC, even though of a good spec does not have one at all, nor even the header to pop one in. It does however have a place on the motherboard where the TPM header should be, but it will take some motherboard surgery, to get one. I am not amused. :evil:
Adding TPM, for many, turns out to be a doddle for whoever knows how to access a BIOS and enable Firmware TPM (or fTPM) but then again, your mileage will vary and for many, many users, that might mean having to either add a TPM module or buy a compatible Windows 11 PC when they come to the markett.
(Emphasis mine.) All Intel and AMD CPUs from the last few years ship with built-in TPMs, but they're typically disabled by default in the BIOS. OEM computers may not give you the option to turn it on, but if you've had your system custom built from consumer parts you can almost certainly find the option in the BIOS and enable it. (How easy it is to find and how clearly labelled it is depends on your BIOS.)

Microsoft is taking a stance here to force manufacturers to enable TPM support on all PCs, which is self-evidently a good thing for everyone's security. There will doubtless be a few people who get stuck in a situation where TPM support is the only blocker for upgrading to Windows 11, and probably some more who would be able to if they could only find the option in their BIOS. However, Win 10 will continue to receive security updates until at least 2025 anyway, and I can't disagree with the trade-off here.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 00:49

red assassin wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 00:35
greypanther wrote:
Sat, 26. Jun 21, 21:17
Also there could well be some compatibility issues, as in, some PCs will not be able to use it. Evidently you will need a TPM chip, version 2.0 to instal it at all. My 9 month old PC, even though of a good spec does not have one at all, nor even the header to pop one in. It does however have a place on the motherboard where the TPM header should be, but it will take some motherboard surgery, to get one. I am not amused. :evil:
Adding TPM, for many, turns out to be a doddle for whoever knows how to access a BIOS and enable Firmware TPM (or fTPM) but then again, your mileage will vary and for many, many users, that might mean having to either add a TPM module or buy a compatible Windows 11 PC when they come to the markett.
(Emphasis mine.) All Intel and AMD CPUs from the last few years ship with built-in TPMs, but they're typically disabled by default in the BIOS. OEM computers may not give you the option to turn it on, but if you've had your system custom built from consumer parts you can almost certainly find the option in the BIOS and enable it. (How easy it is to find and how clearly labelled it is depends on your BIOS.)

Microsoft is taking a stance here to force manufacturers to enable TPM support on all PCs, which is self-evidently a good thing for everyone's security. There will doubtless be a few people who get stuck in a situation where TPM support is the only blocker for upgrading to Windows 11, and probably some more who would be able to if they could only find the option in their BIOS. However, Win 10 will continue to receive security updates until at least 2025 anyway, and I can't disagree with the trade-off here.
Same situation on my 2 y/o machine. TPM was disabled by default and ASUS didn't mention it in any of their literature, but low and behold, it was there, hidden in the 'PTT' option. Chances are high that any more modern PC will have a TPM integrated, just not obvious in the BIOS.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 01:29

TPM is a two sided thing. It is a blackbox, holey, a potential privacy catastrophy, and a potential backdoor for remote control of what saftware can be run on a private computer.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
The only thing that TPM is almost guaranteed to provide is a false sense of security (even the
name itself, “Trusted Platform Module”, is misleading and creates a false sense of security). As for
real security, TPM is actually redundant (and implementing redundant features is usually a way to
create so-called bloatware). Features like this are sometimes referred to as ‘security theater’ [6].
from the true crypt user guide pdf you find by typing it into your browser.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by red assassin » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 01:44

BaronVerde wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 01:29
TPM is a two sided thing. It is a blackbox, holey, a potential privacy catastrophy, and a potential backdoor for remote control of what saftware can be run on a private computer.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
The only thing that TPM is almost guaranteed to provide is a false sense of security (even the
name itself, “Trusted Platform Module”, is misleading and creates a false sense of security). As for
real security, TPM is actually redundant (and implementing redundant features is usually a way to
create so-called bloatware). Features like this are sometimes referred to as ‘security theater’ [6].
from the true crypt user guide pdf you find by typing it into your browser.
No it isn't. TPM is an open standard you can go and read, and inasmuch as the hardware implementation of it is a black box, what do you think the *rest* of your computer is?

TrueCrypt has been dead for half a decade and this is a bad take. "Attacks exist which are not blocked by a TPM" is not an argument against TPMs any more than "no security is perfect" is an argument against having security. Any security measure which constrains the available attacks or is expensive to bypass improves security; this is the whole point of defence in depth.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 02:01

Some implementations are 'open'. But Infineon for instance admitted an erroneous implementation themselves.

But that's just blabla, if trivial attacks can find a way around something that's misleadingly sold as a security feature (which is questionable), then that feature is just wortless. A TPM, though a passive thing by definition, can easily be abused, e.g. as part of a drm system, block devices based on certain criteria, or for 'planned obsolescense'. It is just, and here we're back at the start again, superfluous. Stallman's objection is totally valid.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 15:01

Didn't know about the requirements, as when I first heard about win 11, there wasn't much info on it.

But to me, the requirements seem more and more feels MS is trying to force things down our throat. And less and less control over our own computers. Windows 10 felt a good deal like this. Now it feels that with win 11, MS has gone several steps farther. I wonder if there will be an outcry from people and maybe then MS will do several U turns? especailly about the chip requirement. I doubt that will go down well, especasilly with businesses. Also if they are ending support of windows 10 in 4 years time or about that, also feels forced. I'The more I read the less I like the direction that MS is going in.

Edit

It seems that MS will be dropping all support for any Intel based system below 8th gen, (from one news article that I found) when people do upgrade to the next win version. So It would mean getting a new system. I really think this is going to be a huge mistake and will end up alienating many people and businesses in the process. While MS has said that TPM 1.2 might be supported, but won;t recommend upgrading to windows 11. it feels MS will really screw the pooch here and it won't be the first time they made a huge mistake. yes it will force a lot of hardware to be brought, at the same time, It will make a lot of people and businesses very angry.

So yeah, forced and double forced.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 17:01

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 15:01
the chip requirement. I doubt that will go down well, especasilly with businesses.
I thought that business buy from OEM vendors and those deals include both multi-year support and widgets, like TPM?

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 17:22

They do indeed and most companies have a refresh cycle, usually aligned with warranty or lease terms, to replace end user systems every few years.

Besides, you're likely not gonna see businesses jump on Windows 11 until 2023, at the very earliest.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 17:43

By businesses, they might have computers that are both old and new. especailly if they are self employed. From some of the comments I have read on a few videos. Those with intel boards are going to suffer the most.

The main problem is, if your CPU isn't 8th gen or newer, it will not have the TPM chip period. Instead there maybe a place on the MB for the chip, (depending on MB) but here is also the thing. if that MB is old, then its a very high chance that the MB manufacturer will not have the TPM module in stock. So for many Intel base systems, they will be out of luck. if AMD ryzen 2 or newer. You will be fine. As its possible to to enable something similar in the MB BIOS.

For intel, You can enable something called PTT, which is similar, I just checked my MB BIOS, and don't see anything called that. So yeah, a lot of intel systems will be dead in the water unless they keep to older windows. OR MS backtracks.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 18:16

Oh psh. People whine every single time MS releases a new OS and their dinosaur computer won't run it. By the time Windows 10 reaches EOL, 8th gen intel systems will be up to 8 years old, well past typical replacement periods for most users.

But hey, good news there. If you have a digital license for your OS (IE, tied to a MS account you own), when you do eventually get a new machine, you can transfer the license to your new hardware and get a free upgrade to Windows 11.

Just like CDPR was totally fine despite the predictions of doom, so too will be MS.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 19:22

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 18:16
Oh psh. People whine every single time MS releases a new OS [...]
Viewn from a comfortable distance of a stable OS, that seems so incredibly funny to me, to watch people perform that ritual each and every time since the earliest versions and MS just ignore their user's complaints. Instead of consequently walking away many people stay paralized like the poor little mouse about to be eaten by the cat, if you guys allow me the analogy. Bon appetit, MS !

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 27. Jun 21, 19:50

BaronVerde wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 19:22
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 27. Jun 21, 18:16
Oh psh. People whine every single time MS releases a new OS [...]
Viewn from a comfortable distance of a stable OS, that seems so incredibly funny to me, to watch people perform that ritual each and every time since the earliest versions and MS just ignore their user's complaints. Instead of consequently walking away people stay paralized like the poor little mouse about to be eaten by the cat, if you guys allow me the analogy. Bon appetit, MS !
Why do you believe MS is obligated to support hardware that is discontinued by the manufacturers, and has been before their new OS even hits the market? Most people won't even be impacted by that exclusion. So, some dude still has a 286 running Windows 3.1 and he should be able to run Windows 11 too? Clearly there has to be a cut off, and why not let that cut off be at the current hardware being manufactured and actively supported by said manufacturers?

But that's from my view of a stable windows build. I can't even remember the last time I experienced a system crash, at least one that wasn't due to hardware failure. But hey, eebcac is a way of life for some people.
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