W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

[BaronVerde]

One may get a 500 quid PC for windows 11, but that will hardly be good for gaming or even reasonable work. A Ryzen 5 with graphics, cheap board and ram is already 500,- (EUR)

Just bought a new PC for 2,300,- EUR and didn't even get the ram I wanted, that would have been ~150,- more for fast 32GB 3600 CL16, which was unavailable at the time of order. Now I got only 2*8GB and will have to upgrade at some time. But there's also a new monitor included for 300,-. That was my replacement cost, though unrelated to windows. But the thread title is "or ?"

btw.: A year or two ago IBM teamed up with the open source community because they were looking for Cobol programmers. Yes, Cobol. Reason was that many public services in USA still ran and run IBM hardware from the 90s and COVID brought them to the limits and beyond. They don't have the people to service the code base, or the resources to upgrade the ancient equipment.

Modern IBM mainframes run IBM's own Unix implementation or Linux.

[Vertigo 7]

Just did a quick check, as I doubted the validity of needing £2,000 for a Win 11 PC, and there are plenty available sub £500. - As I understand it now, it's just 4th generation and back processors which aren't capable of running Win 11, or am (again) mistaken?

If you want a basic system with a low end card, then sure, but quarter of that cost factors in the Gcard, and many of them are pretty steep price.

@Vertigo 7

In a certain way, it is forced, ok maybe not now, but in a few years time, otherwise, support for windows 10 will drop, same with 7, no one supports 7 apart from a handful of stuff. So the upgrade was forced. otherwise, no more security patches, no games will run on 7, etc. once 10 is no longer supported, its either a forced upgrade or switch to something else.

How is that not forced?

Who said games won't run on it when MS stops supporting the OS? There's no kill switch embedded that stops the OS from functioning when it hits EOL - that just means MS stops releasing patches and providing free support. Nothing is stopping you from installing and patching 7 or XP to their last released patch levels. There's plenty of games and such that will run on both. Yeah, sure, developers will stop supporting old OS's when the market moves away from them, but that's just life dude. Auto manufacturers stopped producing vehicles that ran on leaded gas, back in what, the 70's or something like that. AC manufacturers stopped producing compressors that use old freon. But no one is forcing you to follow suit. You can still stick to your old ways and yell at the kids to get off your lawn if that's what you wanna do.

[BaronVerde]

MS Windows has 'kill switches' or let's say refuses to work properly, play things, copy stuff, install software, ... since a long time, often advertised as having enhanced security or some such.

I installed an old windows 7 CD 3 or 4 years ago, there were no updates available, and it was only service pack 1.

MS forces people to update, or go away. It is their choice.

[Vertigo 7]

ok? MS ended mainstream support for 7 in 2015 and it was only on SP1. and no, there's no kill switches. If that were the case, the few 2008 and windows 7 systems we still have running old medical imaging software wouldn't be functional.

[BaronVerde]

No, the explorer window said that the time for updates had expired and there will not be support for windows 7 any more, iirc. And I believe there was a service pack II, but I may be wrong. I recall there were discussions about the quality of that newer service pack ...

7 was the last Windows versions I used.

[Vertigo 7]

No, there was no official SP2 released. All of the Windows 7 updates are available to this very day on MS's website. https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =Windows+7

[jlehtone]

No, the explorer window said that the time for updates had expired and there will not be support for windows 7 any more, iirc.

I don't think that Windows 7 says so in isolated network. Perhaps, if it could reach Microsoft servers, but who would connect an obsolete system to public network, regardless of how "really fine OS" it has?

I've seen a bit of lamentation due to RHEL 8 not supporting a decade old RAID controllers and NICs. Red Hat did release RHEL 8 in 2019 and will support it to 2029. Same tale as with Windows 11, except that servers and gaming machines tend to have different users (?).

A example "enterprise" (well, public sector) "normal desktop" here has Intel i5-10500, 16 GB RAM, and 256 GB SSD for ~500 euro (VAT 0%). Intel IGP, and that is considered fine for work. By "them" -- all "work" is not equal.

[BaronVerde]

I don't think that Windows 7 says so in isolated network. Perhaps, if it could reach Microsoft servers, but who would connect an obsolete system to public network, regardless of how "really fine OS" it has?

I had to, because of a specific driver for my telescope, which is by now available for Linux as well. Though the scope is gone. Those days I had to connect to the network for activation (or kill switch) and the update started, idk. if I had to click something. A red ribbon appeared telling me 'not for you any more'. II used the setup only for a year or so on a crap PC until I had proper Linux drivers.

I've seen a bit of lamentation due to RHEL 8 not supporting a decade old RAID controllers and NICs. Red Hat did release RHEL 8 in 2019 and will support it to 2029. Same tale as with Windows 11, except that servers and gaming machines tend to have different users (?).

... and that with some knowledge one could do their own drivers. I've done so for a printer that wasn't available on Linux (there are even templates), try that in Windows, if there's no driver, you're lost (Edit: or must pay because docu isn't for everyone)

A example "enterprise" (well, public sector) "normal desktop" here has Intel i5-10500, 16 GB RAM, and 256 GB SSD for ~500 euro (VAT 0%). Intel IGP, and that is considered fine for work. By "them" -- all "work" is not equal.

I understand why public sector take their time ...

That was a joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPnGC1__Xqg

---------------------------------
Windows 7 SP2:
https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... l-it-that/

Seems I recalled correctly, there was a big discussion, some even refused SP 2 because of quality issues, and MS stopped the SP path for individual updates. Hope that is not totally wrong.

Edit: Point was, there were no updates installed though a lot of them must have been available, an evidence that MS forces more o less gently to switch versions. Which isn't exactly a secret, and which one doesn't have to endure.

[Vertigo 7]

You were right in only that there were updates released after SP1, but there never was officially a SP2 released by MS. Still, MS isn't forcing anyone to upgrade against their will, despite delusions to the contrary.

[Terre]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

Windows 11 known issues and notifications
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... 728msgdesc

Microsoft Windows 11 Support Statement (Inkjet Printer) from Brother.
https://support.brother.com/g/b/osconte ... n&ossid=14

[Vertigo 7]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

Windows 11 known issues and notifications
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... 728msgdesc

Microsoft Windows 11 Support Statement (Inkjet Printer) from Brother.
https://support.brother.com/g/b/osconte ... n&ossid=14

You might receive a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print in environments in which the print server and print client are in different times zones.

Note The affected environments described in this issue are not commonly used by devices designed for home use. The printing environments affected by this issue are more commonly found in enterprises and organizations.

-pretty significant detail to leave out and not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

[jlehtone]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

... not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

That is probably same or related to ... recent weeks we were not able to print if (Enterprise) Windows 10 was not up to date and OS X clients could not print at all. Something about print server. My Linux has had troubles authenticating to ("SMB") server all the time, but at the time printing was supposedly impossible ... I was able to print. Point is, nobody had Windows 11; one can perhaps blame MS at large, but not 11 in particular.

[Vertigo 7]

"Receiving a prompt for administrative credentials every time you attempt to print" added to the list.

... not something exclusive to Windows 11 either.

That is probably same or related to ... recent weeks we were not able to print if (Enterprise) Windows 10 was not up to date and OS X clients could not print at all. Something about print server. My Linux has had troubles authenticating to ("SMB") server all the time, but at the time printing was supposedly impossible ... I was able to print. Point is, nobody had Windows 11; one can perhaps blame MS at large, but not 11 in particular.

Ehh, I dunno. Wouldn't think that'd be related. There's been some changes to the print queue service to remediate the print nightmare CVE and it's entirely possible something got overlooked that impacted printing from a different time zone - something in of itself that wouldn't be a routine occurrence. I'd imagine the total number of impacted users would be pretty small. But if there was something that broke printing in general for non-windows clients, with as much printing that goes on with all of the hospitals my org deals with, emails would have been flying and it's been quiet on that front. Perhaps someone got over zealous with security policies or something trying to secure the print servers?

[jlehtone]

Perhaps someone got over zealous with security policies or something trying to secure the print servers?

I would not be surprised.

[Chips]

I was in hospital recently, (had a nasty insect bite) and te screens behind the doc, I'm, pretty sure the OS was still windows 7, I had a feeling it was. And the NHS (national health service) in the UK, is struggling. so I doubt they will have the money to upgrade systems to support windows 11, especially if some computers / servers are still on windows 7. So again, it might be easy to say, businesses can upgrade. But reality is, those of the small business end especially in the UK / EU with raising costs. May have to decide what to do. and again I doubt many will be happy with this change.

So very wrong of MS to think everyone will have the funds to able to afford £2000+ systems.

Erm, won't that be because software they're running isn't compatible (or hasn't been tested fully) with windows 8/10/11 etc. Otherwise they'd have rolled out windows 10 upgrade surely.

Where was I working where it was Windows XP still only 5 years ago They've moved on now... but it's not the OS version that limited them per se. It was the simple fact that programs/applications they rely upon were either non compatible or more likely, not tested to ensure working fine, with a newer version. I know some were legacy and the cost of re-writing was ... lets put it this way. Big budgets required, and since the network was air gapped, they deemed it not significant enough risk at that time to prioritise their budgets for OS upgrades.

[CBJ]

Erm, won't that be because software they're running isn't compatible (or hasn't been tested fully) with windows 8/10/11 etc. Otherwise they'd have rolled out windows 10 upgrade surely.

It's the bit in brackets in your post that slows down OS rollout in large organisations, particularly ones like hospitals where software failure could be life-threatening. You have to be 100% sure that all the software your users need will run on the new OS, and that there won't be any interoperability problems during the rollout either. Luckily these sorts of large organisations will also have extended support contracts with Microsoft, to ensure that the OS platform they are running doesn't go out of support (for them, at least) before they are ready to switch.

So very wrong of MS to think everyone will have the funds to able to afford £2000+ systems.

This is a strawman argument. Systems capable of running Win11 simply don't cost £2000. In fact you can get a laptop that will run Win11 for £200, even now after all the price rises. A business that can't afford to spend £200 with 3 years' warning to replace a 10+ year old PC probably has bigger issues than its IT systems.

[Vertigo 7]

Erm, won't that be because software they're running isn't compatible (or hasn't been tested fully) with windows 8/10/11 etc. Otherwise they'd have rolled out windows 10 upgrade surely.

It's the bit in brackets in your post that slows down OS rollout in large organisations, particularly ones like hospitals where software failure could be life-threatening. You have to be 100% sure that all the software your users need will run on the new OS, and that there won't be any interoperability problems during the rollout either. Luckily these sorts of large organisations will also have extended support contracts with Microsoft, to ensure that the OS platform they are running doesn't go out of support (for them, at least) before they are ready to switch.

What's often the case is that some developer/vendor wrote some app a thousand years ago and went out of business, but the doctors/staff in certain clinics just have to have that application and there isn't a suitable replacement available or potential replacements carry a ridiculous price tag with it. In my experience, it's most frequently associated with MRI and XRay imaging applications.

Some of the bigger names in the medical field, like Cerner, Athena, McKesson, Epic, FetaLink, and others have been pretty good about keeping their applications ready to move into newer OS's. And there's also the cloud hosting, which many of them are embracing, which makes replacing end user systems trivial, thankfully.

[Terre]

A little light reading.

October 21, 2021—KB5006746 (OS Build 22000.282) Preview
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/top ... 40bef057d3

AMD Chipset Drivers 3.10.08.506 released.
Release Highlights:
OpenGL error pop up issue fixed.
Restores intended function and behaviour of UEFI CPPC2 (“preferred core”) in Windows® 11 build 22000.189 (or newer) on AMD processors. For additional information, please visit AMD knowledge base PA-400

[alt3rn1ty]

There is always the possibility that those out there without TPM2 who have specifications otherwise very capable of running windows 11 (I'm guessing but I think that would be a lot of machines not worth turning your nose up against from MS POV), may well get windows 11 offered eventually. Once MS have hoovered up the majority of the captive market and maybe made a few decide its time for a new machine, they may decide to ease off on the system requirements to suck everyone else in. Probably wont ever be available for really old systems, but if its just a case of TPM2 holding it back, MS changing their mind sometime next year would not surprise me and they will then be in a more experienced position to decide they can additionally support a few more machine specifications for the duration of win 11. I mean why not?, its more people using a Microsoft Account and OneDrive for MS to hoover up the market research data from onboard their cloud servers

[Vertigo 7]

I doubt it. What would be the point? There's no cpu/mobo combo in production today that doesn't have tpm 2.0 integrated and that's been the case for a few years now. That would be taking a step backwards as far as security is concerned. With all the whining some engage in about security and windows, one would think that a decision to exclude systems that are incapable of a certain security standard from running W11 would be applauded.

It's interesting too that no one raised an eyebrow that there's no 32 bit offering of Windows 11. Some how, people managed to transition from running 32 bit versions of Windows and their worlds didn't come to an end. All of those 8 and 16 bit apps they used to run haven't mattered for many years and that door is about to be officially shut. But some how this tpm issue does matter?