Power stations.

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greypanther
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Power stations.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 26. May 21, 15:45

Having read this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57232644 earlier, several thing came to mind.

Wonderful though it is, it is still going to be decades off happening, maybe not even in my lifetime, which led me to wonder what new power stations are being built here in the UK at the moment. It seems there are a few, ( not sure here, ) but no where near enough to cover future needs, unless I am missing something...

I do not know about other countries really, but the UK is going to ban the sale of petrol; diesel and hybrid cars quite soon, making everyone change to electric. This is no problem to me, indeed is way over due, but I can see little to no building of the very necessary infrastructure. There are just hardly any charge points yet, not even enough even for the electric cars already on the roads, but this could still be done before the 2030 deadline. However the bigger problem is the lack of power production in the UK, especially clean energy production. The thing is, unless I am very much mistaken, it takes a very long time to build a new power station, well over ten years, so just what exactly do our glorious leader intend? Is Boris even capable of even organising a piss up in a brewery? :roll:

I am still doubtful about the legitimacy of the claim of electric cars being so much better too, considering all the extra material needed, particularly from very limited resources. ( Deep mining etc. as well as batteries needing to be replaced very regularly. )

What am I missing? :)
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Re: Power stations.

Post by CBJ » Wed, 26. May 21, 16:34

As far as I'm aware, there is one nuclear power station (Hinkley Point C) under construction and another (Sizewell C) awaiting approval, and I believe plans for a big new natural gas power station were recently cancelled. But perhaps just looking at big, traditional power station projects is misleading, since future energy production would hopefully be more likely to involve things like wind and solar energy farms. Whether the current plans for those are going to be sufficient to meet demand is a good question, though.

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Re: Power stations.

Post by red assassin » Wed, 26. May 21, 16:44

Image
The UK's power consumption is down significantly since its peak in 2008, due to increased efficiency and changes in industry. Transitions away from natural gas for home heating and petrol/diesel for vehicle fuel will add some level of additional draw to the power grid, but it shouldn't be enough to make a significant dent in the trend. Meanwhile, we've shed an enormous amount of fossil fuel generation from the grid in that time, replaced almost entirely with renewable generation. Renewable energy projects don't tend to be big headline grabbing events like the nuclear power stations CBJ refers to, but they're happening in a very big way in aggregate. Grid storage is also starting to ramp up significantly as we drop further fossil fuel generation.

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Re: Power stations.

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 26. May 21, 17:13

Since the 1960s fusion energy is 30 years away. There has been some prograss lately, I believe the Iter fusion reactor (a tokamak, a machine that tries to achieve fusion by magnetic confinement), an international cocoperation, is at front, Maybe together and neck to neck with other devices that work on different principles, like laser pules.

It is to my limited knowledge not yet clear if self sustained fusion that releases more energy than it takes to initiate can be kept up for longer periods. If that can be done one day (meaning 30 years from now, and nor, and now, ... :-)) that'll be a relatively clean machine. I think one can find a lot of info on these machines, and the current development.

But: we do not have 30 years, and countries are already running on renewables, which quite obviously is relatively trivial once the political will to implement it has developed in the minds of those who should maybe concentrate more on organizing piss-ins :-)

I'm not missing anything if I wait until electric cars come in smaller sizes for little money. I don't need a prosthesis for the piss-ins :-)

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Re: Power stations.

Post by greypanther » Mon, 31. May 21, 23:02

red assassin wrote:
Wed, 26. May 21, 16:44
The UK's power consumption is down significantly since its peak in 2008, due to increased efficiency and changes in industry. Transitions away from natural gas for home heating and petrol/diesel for vehicle fuel will add some level of additional draw to the power grid, but it shouldn't be enough to make a significant dent in the trend. Meanwhile, we've shed an enormous amount of fossil fuel generation from the grid in that time, replaced almost entirely with renewable generation. Renewable energy projects don't tend to be big headline grabbing events like the nuclear power stations CBJ refers to, but they're happening in a very big way in aggregate. Grid storage is also starting to ramp up significantly as we drop further fossil fuel generation.

(source - PDF: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... pter_5.pdf)
Have you got a source, that is not from a government site? I just struggle to trust them in cases like this. Self audit, maybe? Also. I did see a projection of what demand will be in the future as electric cars dominate, but cannot find it now I am afraid, but it did not paint such a rosy picture as you seem to be inferring. What makes it much worse for me is here in the UK, a proven; clean; very reliable and very predictable source of energy could be easily available. The French proved it could be so. :)

I can still find no reasonable solution to the lack of infrastructure, other than poorer people no longer driving.

I still think there may be trouble ahead...
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Re: Power stations.

Post by red assassin » Tue, 1. Jun 21, 00:23

greypanther wrote:
Mon, 31. May 21, 23:02
Have you got a source, that is not from a government site? I just struggle to trust them in cases like this.
No. Energy use falling is consistent with other similar nations, and it's trivial to verify that a lot of fossil fuel power stations have been shut down and renewable generation capacity has been added. I'm not going on a goose chase because you have a feeling that there's a conspiracy to publish false data involving at minimum, the government, the National Grid and every major power generation and distribution company in the country.
Also. I did see a projection of what demand will be in the future as electric cars dominate, but cannot find it now I am afraid, but it did not paint such a rosy picture as you seem to be inferring.
If you wholesale transfer the UK's entire current road usage - about 356 billion miles per year - to electric vehicles at the current ballpark efficiency figure for electric vehicles (about 0.15kWh/km), you get a yearly energy usage of about 85TWh. Significant, given the country's current usage is about 300TWh/year, but manageable over the course of decades. The government isn't currently planning to ban sales of petrol/diesel vehicles until 2030 and it will take years after that for the last fossil fuel vehicles to come off the road. Additionally, any sane long-term green planning must include work to reduce use of inefficient transport like personal cars in favour of public transit and telecommuting, as part of a general package of measures to reduce energy usage.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by greypanther » Tue, 1. Jun 21, 16:27

red assassin wrote:
Tue, 1. Jun 21, 00:23
No. Energy use falling is consistent with other similar nations, and it's trivial to verify that a lot of fossil fuel power stations have been shut down and renewable generation capacity has been added. I'm not going on a goose chase because you have a feeling that there's a conspiracy to publish false data involving at minimum, the government, the National Grid and every major power generation and distribution company in the country.
I was not aware that I asked you to go on a goose chase, but rather assumed you might have the information to hand, as you do seem to like to link and show graphs.
If you wholesale transfer the UK's entire current road usage - about 356 billion miles per year - to electric vehicles at the current ballpark efficiency figure for electric vehicles (about 0.15kWh/km), you get a yearly energy usage of about 85TWh. Significant, given the country's current usage is about 300TWh/year, but manageable over the course of decades. The government isn't currently planning to ban sales of petrol/diesel vehicles until 2030 and it will take years after that for the last fossil fuel vehicles to come off the road. Additionally, any sane long-term green planning must include work to reduce use of inefficient transport like personal cars in favour of public transit and telecommuting, as part of a general package of measures to reduce energy usage.
I cannot, nor will argue with the figures you offer, ( other than to say there will not be decades to sort this, ) but will ask why has there not been a significant improvement in public transport? It's coming and only patience is required? :roll: Never mind that the system will create divisions, between those that have and those that have not when it comes to transport. ( Money and space. ) Whilst it is hard to argue about the need, to clean up our act, this is in my opinion not a " joined up " way of doing it. Division rarely works.

At one time, I would have gone on a wild goose chase to prove my points, but just lack the energy now a days. I also now remember, again, why I stopped posting here. My apologies for starting the thread.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by Mailo » Wed, 2. Jun 21, 16:42

greypanther wrote:
Mon, 31. May 21, 23:02
What makes it much worse for me is here in the UK, a proven; clean; very reliable and very predictable source of energy could be easily available. The French proved it could be so. :)
While I am not 100% sure which source of energy you mean, the "French" side note suggests you mean nuclear energy. If that is the case, then please note that nuclear energy is only clean and very reliable (and even affortable) if you ignore the radioactive waste that is produced. Granted, it is difficult to estimate the cost impact of this, as noone has any clue whatsoever what to actually do with it. All current storage methods are temporary stop-gaps, and even some of those are already failing.
That's a bit like saying burning coal is clean, you just have to ignore the black noxious clouds coming off.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 2. Jun 21, 22:16

Mailo wrote:
Wed, 2. Jun 21, 16:42
While I am not 100% sure which source of energy you mean, the "French" side note suggests you mean nuclear energy.
Well. I have to at least give a quick answer to that! In no way to I mean that! Nuclear fission is no answer at all, in my opinion. Way to expensive to build, way too dirty and way too expensive electricity! :rant:

Here, the answer, for the UK certainly is tidal power. We have loads of potential here, with a huge tidal range and many suitable rivers. Only: " Not In My Back Yard nonsense, " has stopped it here. There is an obvious effect on the local bio system, but the French evidence, seems to point out that some species suffer badly, whilst other species benefit greatly, so: swings and roundabouts. Most of all, much better than any alternative.

Here, a few articles to read:
https://www.edf.fr/en/the-edf-group/ind ... idal-power
http://tidalpower.co.uk/france
http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/project ... al/france/

It really is a no brainer. Very expensive to build, but very low maintenance costs, compared to just about any other power production; added to which it takes a small staff to run them and they are very clean and reliable. The French first has only needed one major overhaul since 1966! Will probably still be producing energy in 100+ years!!! :rant: :rant:

Think I need to get off my hobby horse now, :oops: been there done that, here several times, in several threads in the past. Particularly remember debates about it with Usenko. :D
( Yes, this is a quick answer, I have in the past wrote loads about it; linked to loads of evidence too... )
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Re: Power stations.

Post by red assassin » Thu, 3. Jun 21, 01:08

greypanther wrote:
Tue, 1. Jun 21, 16:27
I cannot, nor will argue with the figures you offer, ( other than to say there will not be decades to sort this, ) but will ask why has there not been a significant improvement in public transport? It's coming and only patience is required? :roll: Never mind that the system will create divisions, between those that have and those that have not when it comes to transport. ( Money and space. ) Whilst it is hard to argue about the need, to clean up our act, this is in my opinion not a " joined up " way of doing it. Division rarely works.
You seem to have misunderstood me. I do not think the government's - or any global government's - green policies go anything close to far enough. There is absolutely going to be serious environmental disaster coming and the social consequences will be unimaginable. I just believe that it's important to criticise on the basis of facts. Evidence does not support the assertion that without anybody noticing we're going to run out of electricity due to lack of power generation capacity in the next few decades.

greypanther wrote:
Wed, 2. Jun 21, 22:16
Well. I have to at least give a quick answer to that! In no way to I mean that! Nuclear fission is no answer at all, in my opinion. Way to expensive to build, way too dirty and way too expensive electricity! :rant:

Here, the answer, for the UK certainly is tidal power. We have loads of potential here, with a huge tidal range and many suitable rivers. Only: " Not In My Back Yard nonsense, " has stopped it here. There is an obvious effect on the local bio system, but the French evidence, seems to point out that some species suffer badly, whilst other species benefit greatly, so: swings and roundabouts. Most of all, much better than any alternative.

Here, a few articles to read:
https://www.edf.fr/en/the-edf-group/ind ... idal-power
http://tidalpower.co.uk/france
http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/project ... al/france/

It really is a no brainer. Very expensive to build, but very low maintenance costs, compared to just about any other power production; added to which it takes a small staff to run them and they are very clean and reliable. The French first has only needed one major overhaul since 1966! Will probably still be producing energy in 100+ years!!! :rant: :rant:

Think I need to get off my hobby horse now, :oops: been there done that, here several times, in several threads in the past. Particularly remember debates about it with Usenko. :D
( Yes, this is a quick answer, I have in the past wrote loads about it; linked to loads of evidence too... )
Tidal power is a great idea, and I am definitely in favour of construction of some tidal power generation. However, the sheer area requirements mean it's not ever going to be anything more than a minor contributor to total power generating capacity. The projects you refer to as examples produce a tiny amount of power in the grand scheme of things. Optimistic estimates of the potential of tide energy suggest you could provide maybe 10% of the UK's total power draw from tidal energy, and that's if you're prepared to roll the dice on the environmental consequences of installing tidal barrages or dense tidal stream generators (as appropriate) at every suitable site in the country. More realistic plans involving tidal lagoons and sparser use of tidal stream generators would obviously produce less power. That's not nothing - 10% is a big chunk of power! - but you're presenting tidal power as "the answer" and it's not. Part of the answer, sure.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 3. Jun 21, 13:49

Tidal power stations need carefull planning because they can block sediment run-off and thus become ineffective quickly, and destroy biotopes and marine habitats. They also tend to create stagnant conditions, leading to hypoxia or anoxia. In addition to eutrophy from inflow of nutrients and fertilizers on continental shelves.

Wind and solar are the way to go, where applicable geothermal energy, either by using the geothermal gradient (Iceland style) or by hanging one side of a heat pump into an aquifer. In the 2000s I lived in an apartmnent complex in southern Germany that was near completely heated in winter and cooled in summer by such a device, with little extra input from a gas burner in cold wintertimes. But careful with that, it was/is really hightec, together with air conditioning and heat exchangers in the house, mixing fresh air in, stale air out, a control system that doesn't allways do what it is supposed to do. I lived there 4 years, moved in when it was new and out when they had a grip on all those start-up problems :-) But I believe in the meantime this technology is more practicable than it was 20 years ago.

Also, some communities who tried this heat pump thing didn't ask the geologists, or, such as the likes of politicians are, asked until they had the right answer from pseudo-science. When you connect a confined aquifer with hydratogenous rock strata the latter may expand and heave, with catastrophic outcome for those who live above it. Some hillbillies from an adjacent area (Black Forest, that says it all :-P), not listening to an official study but to the call of public money for construction work, sent out water diviners to search for reason why their housings started to crumble, even after geological surveys said "You're the idiots, why didn't you listen ?".

That happens when politicians listen to pseudo science :-)

Wind & solar, that's the way. Totally sufficient. Problem: it's cheap and thus doesn't fit into the religion of constant growth and infinite money ...

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Re: Power stations.

Post by Mightysword » Fri, 4. Jun 21, 04:44

True solution will have to be in the form similar to the egosoft model: massive solar farm in space will solve all of your problems. :D
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Re: Power stations.

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 14:08

ITER about to get the first of its humonguous field coils (sic !).

https://www.iter.org/newsline/-/3632

If all goes well, it may start up for the first time around mid of the 20s (this century). But, you know, predictions are difficult. Specifically those regarding the future. We'll have to wait a bit until the sperm whale and bowl of petunias materialize for the first time in mid-air :-)

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Re: Power stations.

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 14:46

I have been watching a documentary series (possibly UK audience only) about the construction of the Hinkley Point C Nuclear Power Station in the UK. Covid has natuarally affected the planned timescale and budget for opening in 2025 but work has continued nevertheless. The interesting thing is that it's expected productive life is only 60 years. That seems quite short for the huge outlay.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 17:12

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 17. Jun 21, 14:46
The interesting thing is that it's expected productive life is only 60 years. That seems quite short for the huge outlay.
60 years is actually a fairly good number for nuclear power plants? That's way above the current average and also expected life time of typical nuclear plants, assuming the clock start clicking when the station first goes online.
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Re: Power stations.

Post by theeclownbroze » Mon, 21. Jun 21, 00:55

Molten Salt. It is going to be used in the ARC first commercial scale fusion reactor, I believe the prototype smaller SPARC spherical tokomak will also use Flibe Molten Salts.

The interesting thing about Fusion is now we have REBCO superconducting tape, ironically the "wait calculation" that we apply to interstellar travel - wherein we can't be sure when is the best time to launch an interstellar voyage because maybe 100 years later we produce faster propulsion technology and travel even faster than the voyage we started 100 years prior applies to fusion technology.

E.g. The ITER program now might be superseded by an actually functional commercially viable fusion plant and the ARC reactor might be able to produce usable energy before ITER is even finished, at 1 tenth the size and cost, all thanks to new superconducting material science.

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Re: Power stations.

Post by BaronVerde » Mon, 21. Jun 21, 10:31

Looks promising. Hopefully not just one more of those fusion concept drawings that pop up and disappear again:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03 ... ng-magnets

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Re: Power stations.

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 21. Jun 21, 14:56

For people complaining that fusion is always 30 years in future:
30 years ago we were able to trigger the controllable fusion for just below second.
Now it's between 30-60 seconds and the next milestone is for 10 minutes.

With "longer" controllable fusion we'll be able to actually learn much more, improve and optimize much more, so it's guantee that we'll move on from experimental reactors to industrial/commercial designs.

I think every of top 5 nation has plan for commercial "technology demonstrator" by 2030.

Fusion is going out of laboratory and into the business "soon".

Next-gen Nuclear reactors are also good secondary option and stop-gap solution till Fusion will become wide spread.

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Re: Power stations.

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 22. Jun 21, 12:00

https://www.euro-fusion.org/news/2020/n ... rce-sparc/

tl,dr: They say SPARC aims for a ratio of 2 for energy input/output, ITER for 10. In principle, for these machines (Tokamaks) bigger is better because of the efforts necessary to confine a plasma and the load forces on the whole contraption. Yet, if the SPARC demonstration of high temperature superconductors works as envisioned (and the physics are 'sound' so far), that '... would make devices more compact and cheaper ....'.

We'll see soon(tm) what either experiment can achieve :-)

But anyway both of them are just technology demonstrators, prototypes. None is meant to be a real productive power plant, we aren't that far yet.

And, to add a personal opinion of mine, I am not sure if that last millennium idea of humonguous power plants to serve a large region is really the way to go, given all the losses from transport and transformation, and the astronomic cost it has. It may be that by the time fusion power is finally there, it has become obsolete because of decentralized power generation with renewables that come almost for free.

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