Free Speech

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clakclak
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Free Speech

Post by clakclak » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 11:26

I know talking about free speech is always difficult and can lead to some heated debates, that is why the first thing I want to say to everyone (and also want to use as a reminder for myself) is, please remain civil and don't take this to a personal level.

The topic is broad and different countries consider different things to be "free speech". Often the topic can lead to social unrest, like it happened ealier in Spain this year.

So where do you stand on the issue? What should and what shouldn't fall under free speech?
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 12:05

Slightly evading the direct question, I think the problems associated with 'free speech' are far wider than just what it should or should not include.

The other totally entwined major issues are when it should be allowable to be used as an excuse or weapon to cause intentional hurt or damage, and what level of reaction should be allowable when somebody takes strong exception to its use about something they care about.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiksal » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 17:03

I think I'll need to read up on this a bit.

No-one really wants riots, but they do happen. Sometimes those reasons are dumb, like your favorite hockey team had lost or had won, and sometimes they are result of accumulated anger.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 21:13

'Free speech' should not be a dumb excuse for the constant stream of 'alternative facts' (lies) from the right wing, the same people who are trying to keep their fellow citizens from voting and to criminalize them if they are not along their alley. That's not only a national problem in the land of confusion, also elsewhere. But there goes the rest of 'free speech' in the post factual society, it is a shame.

I stick to the peer review for my source of information. Also I can't completely avoid that my eyes catch headlines like Russia and China spreading fake news about western covid vaccines. I try to stay away from that, doesn't add to knowledge, though it fits into an image ...

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:04

BaronVerde wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 21:13
'Free speech' should not be a dumb excuse for the constant stream of 'alternative facts' (lies) from the right wing, the same people who are trying to keep their fellow citizens from voting and to criminalize them if they are not along their alley. That's not only a national problem in the land of confusion, also elsewhere. But there goes the rest of 'free speech' in the post factual society, it is a shame.
Take out the phrase "from the right wing" and I'll agree with everything you said.

I don't deny a lot of the crap coming from the right wing, but I have seen enough of it coming from the left to consider the effort to paint these kind of crap as a "right wing thing" is itself - an alternative fact. :wink:
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:14

Isn't it amazing how quickly just about any topic thread can get turned into a left vs right debate in this forum. :roll: (That's me just exercising my free speech - and now I'll get it in the neck from both sides. :D )
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:21

Mightysword wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:04
BaronVerde wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 21:13
'Free speech' should not be a dumb excuse for the constant stream of 'alternative facts' (lies) from the right wing, the same people who are trying to keep their fellow citizens from voting and to criminalize them if they are not along their alley. That's not only a national problem in the land of confusion, also elsewhere. But there goes the rest of 'free speech' in the post factual society, it is a shame.
Take out the phrase "from the right wing" and I'll agree with everything you said.

I don't deny a lot of the crap coming from the right wing, but I have seen enough of it coming from the left to consider the effort to paint these kind of crap as a "right wing thing" is itself - an alternative fact. :wink:
Yeah... maybe the left doesn't get things right all the time, but apples and oranges (no pun intended), bro. You can try to claim some kind of equivalency exists, but it ain't the left's president that used frees speech as a weapon to enrage the magamorons into attacking my nation's capital and used it again as a shield to absolve himself of all responsibility for it. It ain't the left that holds white power rallies and cooks up bs like jewish space lasers being responsible for wildfires and harasses survivors of school shootings. I could go on, but you know this already.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:23

Alan Phipps wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:14
Isn't it amazing how quickly just about any topic thread can get turned into a left vs right debate in this forum. :roll: (That's me just exercising my free speech - and now I'll get it in the neck from both sides. :D )
Not any topic though, at least in the US I can't remember the last time I heard "free speech" that's free from political context or left/right. It would be like asking how can we go to the moon without a rocket ... I won't say it's impossible, but extremely unlikely. That's just the US though, I don't know how the topic of free speech is often perceived and discussed on other continent. If you feel I shouldn't participate, I'm perfectly fine with sitting this one out. ;)

Edit: and the irony of it is, often time whenever I heard someone yell "MY FREESPEECH" in the US, often it's someone who I believe have no idea or respect for what Free speech is. As a refugee coming from a place with no such thing, you can say it's more or less a sacred concept to me. But the way it's being used in US politic sometime either make my blood boil, or shake my head in disbelief. :shock:
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:50

Interrupt me if I speak nonsense, I think the concept of free speech goes back to iron age Greece, 'parrheseia' or so, meaning to speak everything (but not 'logorheia', meaning to speak excessively).

Any historians (edit or otherwise interested in such antediluvian stuff :-)) here who may know what the ancient philosophers initially had in mind and brought to papyrus with that concept ? Not that it counts today, it probably didn't include all the folks anyway, just for the context ?

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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiksal » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 00:35

Mightysword wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 22:23
Not any topic though, at least in the US I can't remember the last time I heard "free speech" that's free from political context or left/right.
I can suggest some
- physics books
- NASA blogs
- programming blogs
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Observe » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 01:56

Freedom of speech is essential, but freedom only exists where there is responsible speech.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiksal » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 05:40

Observe wrote:
Fri, 30. Apr 21, 01:56
Freedom of speech is essential, but freedom only exists where there is responsible speech.
Propaganda / alternate facts for sure will always try to carve out that part of the freedom of speech, and there's no limit to have far it'll do it.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 08:24

BaronVerde wrote:
Thu, 29. Apr 21, 21:13
'Free speech' should not be a dumb excuse for the constant stream of 'alternative facts' (lies) from the right wing, the same people who are trying to keep their fellow citizens from voting and to criminalize them if they are not along their alley. That's not only a national problem in the land of confusion, also elsewhere. But there goes the rest of 'free speech' in the post factual society, it is a shame.

I stick to the peer review for my source of information. Also I can't completely avoid that my eyes catch headlines like Russia and China spreading fake news about western covid vaccines. I try to stay away from that, doesn't add to knowledge, though it fits into an image ...
Sorry you you're wrong on so many levels.
We are talking about FREE speech, not TRUE Speech, that's the title of this topic and that (and not TRUE speech) is written in constitution on many countries for a reason.
It commies, fashist and most of authoritatians, who ALWAYS goes for TRUE speech over FREE speech.
Anyone who use phrase "I'm for free speech, but..." is simply one of above.

It's a right of any human to spew bull and lies if they want, just as it's a right of a human with a working brain to question and check it.
Flat Earthers spew bull that can be easily checked, but they have a right to spew their BS just like anyone else, simply by the fact that just a few centuries earlier Heliocentrist and modern astronomers WERE the "flat earthers" of their era - they were persecuted by the church and inquisition.

IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING LIKE AN INQUISITION then you're obviously in the wrong (again the phrase "I'm for free speech, but...").

I can parahrase the famous quote:
"it's better to let 9 Flat Earthers to spew bull, than let 1 Heliocentrist to be censored"

It's seem there is a lot of people who want the reverse - basically you want modern inqusition to win.

You were wrong centuries ago and you are wrong today.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 10:05

I do not understand, never heard the term 'true speech' in this context before and do not know what it means. I can only discuss terms that are somehow agreed upon, coining new ones distracts and dilutes.

People should be able to speak freely about their experiences without fear of being suppressed, harmed, locked away, or even murdered. This does of course not allow for lying, be it with an agenda or without. Lying, propaganda, or generally the concept of selecting and channelling information turn free speech into a farce. Exercising free speech would enable people to distinguish between what is real and what is a lie.

Sadly 'free speech' is being suppressed and replaced by fake news, which a whole industry specializes on. As soon as we open a news page we are in the hands of their makers. We're being tracked, analysed and information that reaches us is channelled. Essential information lies in papers that are written observing and honouring a scientific method. It costs a little something.


I don't need the last word, have said what I had to say, so a nice day to everybody :-)

Over and out *khrk*

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Re: Free Speech

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 11:36

BaronVerde wrote:
Fri, 30. Apr 21, 10:05
People should be able to speak freely about their experiences without fear of being suppressed, harmed, locked away, or even murdered. This does of course not allow for lying, be it with an agenda or without. Lying, propaganda, or generally the concept of selecting and channelling information turn free speech into a farce. Exercising free speech would enable people to distinguish between what is real and what is a lie.

Sadly 'free speech' is being suppressed and replaced by fake news, which a whole industry specializes on. As soon as we open a news page we are in the hands of their makers. We're being tracked, analysed and information that reaches us is channelled. Essential information lies in papers that are written observing and honouring a scientific method. It costs a little something.
When you put "what is and what is not allowed" into the discussion, it's no longer a free speech and you're doing basically an inqusition job.
Free speech allow to tell lies, fake news and disinformation as well as it allow people to defend themselves against them.
Once you start to decide what is allowed and not you will inevitably will start blocking people from defending as well.

Nazis, Communist and Inqusition all had their version of what is true or not, what is allowed or not. What was true to them was allowed and everything else was "fake news, disinformation and lies".

That's why Free speech is unconditional and in oposition to this - there is no "but" - only free speech guarantee that you will be free to find out the answer yourself, anything else will inevitably end badly.

Unfortunately with Free speech you will have next Galileo, along next Hitler as combined package. Without Free speech you not will have less chance for next Galileo, but also more chance for next Hitler. Bad trade.
Especially that thanks to Galileo we can enjoy Helicopter flying on Mars right now, when Hitler legacy is pacified (even if it will recurr from time to time).
Free Speech simply works.


Not to mention that if someone think "We should gas X" or "Y are sub-human", I'd rather want them to say it openly, so I could stay the f*** away from them and observe them carefully from safe distance.

BaronVerde wrote:
Fri, 30. Apr 21, 10:05
I do not understand, never heard the term 'true speech' in this context before and do not know what it means. I can only discuss terms that are somehow agreed upon, coining new ones distracts and dilutes.
OK, better call Inqusition for consultation, we can't allow your pure mind to be tarnished by new term, god forbid you become distracted from the only truth and actually start thinking :P
Seriously speaking, it's not so hard nor new concept - check Orwells 1984 Ministry of Truth.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by gevers » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 17:34

I'm all in for absolute free speech, if I want to say that someone's mother is a w****, I should have the right to say it (I know this is an extreme, but when i say absolute, I mean it).
I also think that I should face the consequences of my words, ie that someone beats the crap out of me for insulting their mother.
In the end I'm more for natural laws than human laws, you know, the bigger eats the smaller, whoever adapts better to environment wins the game.

I'll leave a quote to think about.

"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Thucydides.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Nanook » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 18:12

Ok, before this thread gets going, be warned. There is no "absolute free speech" on this forum. Forum rule no. 1 applies, and those who are not familiar with it, I suggest you make yourself so before responding. Have a pleasant conversation. :)
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Re: Free Speech

Post by gevers » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 18:26

Absolutely no one is to use abuse of a personal nature against another forum member. If you are offended by another users' post or conduct, try to contact that user directly to peacefully resolve the issue. In most cases a single PM can solve misunderstandings quickly. If you do not succeed, please contact a moderator for assistance.

Care to explain who I am offending?
By registering to this forum I agreed on its terms and conditions, and I try to respect that, so please tell me where I did wrong.

Edit: I'm sorry, I think I should have pmd you @nanook.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Alan Phipps » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 18:33

@ gevers: Why should you think Nanook was responding especially to you? It was just a general caution to posters here based on the experience of the direction taken by previous threads on this topic.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 30. Apr 21, 18:33

gevers wrote:
Fri, 30. Apr 21, 18:26
Care to explain who I am offending?
By registering to this forum I agreed on its terms and conditions, and I try to respect that, so please tell me where I did wrong.

Edit: I'm sorry, I think I should have pmd you @nanook.
Chill, this is only general note as this type of discussion tend to get heated more often than not.

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