Free Speech

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BaronVerde
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 5. May 21, 23:08

@TeladiCEO:

Here's the mentioned study, sounds reasonable to me given that it's based on data 25 to 15 years old data, but doesn't support the conclusion you draw:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... 1987-2007/

Main points:
  • The public expresses highly favorable views of many leading corporations.
  • Views of many corporations vary significantly among Democrats along class lines.
  • Americans are worried more that businesses rather than government are snooping into their lives
  • The public is losing confidence in itself.
  • Americans feel increasingly estranged from their government.
  • Young people continue to hold a more favorable view of government
  • Interpersonal racial attitudes continue to moderate.
  • Republicans are increasingly divided over the cultural impact of immigrants.
... and so on. This was 2007 and is completely unrelated to free speech, right ? My thought when I flew it over for 2 minutes: "yawn".


Ok guys, I am out, this time for real. Somebody entered with an ice cold beer and an offer I cannot resist. Have a nice one !

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Teladi CEO
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Teladi CEO » Wed, 5. May 21, 23:19

BaronVerde wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 23:08
@TeladiCEO:

Here's the mentioned study, sounds reasonable to me given that it's based on data 25 to 15 years old data, but doesn't support the conclusion you draw:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... 1987-2007/

Main points:
  • The public expresses highly favorable views of many leading corporations.
  • Views of many corporations vary significantly among Democrats along class lines.
  • Americans are worried more that businesses rather than government are snooping into their lives
  • The public is losing confidence in itself.
  • Americans feel increasingly estranged from their government.
  • Young people continue to hold a more favorable view of government
  • Interpersonal racial attitudes continue to moderate.
  • Republicans are increasingly divided over the cultural impact of immigrants.
... and so on. This was 2007 and is completely unrelated to free speech, right ? My thought when I flew it over for 2 minutes: "yawn".


Ok guys, I am out, this time for real. Somebody entered with an ice cold beer and an offer I cannot resist. Have a nice one !
Apparently in those two minutes you flew over it you missed this...

“ Since 1999, support for the idea of banning “books with dangerous ideas” from public school libraries has declined from 55% to 46% and has now fallen to the lowest level of support of the past 20 years, in contrast with the modest increase observed in concerns about pornographic material in magazines and movies. But even in the early 1990s, as few as 48% had supported banning such books. While there are relatively modest partisan differences in opinions about banning dangerous books, there are divisions within parties, especially among Democrats. Two-thirds of liberal Democrats (67%) disagree that dangerous books should be banned — and 52% completely disagree. By comparison, most conservative and moderate Democrats (56%) agree with the banning of dangerous books (and a relatively large proportion — 37% — completely agrees). Republicans are somewhat less divided, although 52% of conservative Republicans favor a ban on such books compared with 40% of moderate and liberal Republicans”
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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiksal » Wed, 5. May 21, 23:25

Teladi CEO wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 22:34
I had to speed run through this entire discussion so excuse me if I miss something. Before I begin let me state:

I am completely and utterly against the restrictions of freedoms and please, can we please return to civility in the discussion
It's a little hard to say at this point what are the main points of this discussion.

Teladi CEO wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 22:34
Is saying you hate (enter race or religion) enough to be arrested, no it shouldn’t, but saying every person of said group should burn in hell... you should probably be investigated. But, this conversation isn’t about that, we have moved into censorship.
We have I suppose, to the point that there's no agreement :)


Teladi CEO wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 22:34
To go to federal censor ship... if someone yells that she is going to blow the building up. She shouldn’t get off free because of freedom of speech, she just threatened to murder dozens of people. Then that, what counts as a threat? The simple answer to the question is this, if your speech can harm someone physically then yes you should be persecuted.
Yep, which police generally follows them up on that.
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Chips
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Chips » Wed, 5. May 21, 23:29

CBJ wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 19:48
mr.WHO wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 19:36
One dude was kicked out of his job, because he was sitting in front of camera (back to it) and back his head in a way that looked like OK symbol at that angle.
Other dude was winning in TV show for the third time, so he made OK sign where 3 fingers should symbolize his 3 wins, now he has to appologize or he will be kicked out of the show.
That. Is. Not. Censorship. That is a private company deciding to let someone go because they decided that person didn't behave appropriately. You can complain that the company was over-sensitive if you like, but you cannot bring it into a conversation about freedom of speech, because it has nothing to do with it.
This.

@mr.WHO - It's precisely why i asked the question as it was evident; the topic has gone off course and most don't seem to be getting caught up/carried away on tangents that aren't related to the subject.

The symbol is not a recognised hate symbol by Governments nor does it lead to imprisonment. Those individuals are still free to use that symbol as they wish, are they not? They weren't prevented from doing so. They won't be arrested for doing so.

Of course, their employer may determine that they didn't align with their corporate image/stance on sensitive subjects which may impact/tarnish reputation and damage their ability to recruit a diverse workforce. It may also just be due to the public response that causes them to take that action instead of actual belief too... but that's an entirely different subject, so best to leave it at that.


As said before - Free Speech is defined in your respective countries laws, and has caveats around it's application (meaning, as Amnesty International say, you can't literally say *anything* - there are legitimate curtails on the freedom). I'm gathering that mr.WHO believes there should be no curtailment.

In reality I'm sure there'd be a compromise at some point - around the most extremes of it naturally... which is kind of where the law sits funnily enough.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 5. May 21, 23:50

Chips wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 23:29
In reality I'm sure there'd be a compromise at some point - around the most extremes of it naturally... which is kind of where the law sits funnily enough.
Unless you're the president of the US, apparently.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 6. May 21, 09:00

Teladi CEO wrote:
Wed, 5. May 21, 22:34
Let me spit some facts:

As of early 2000s, so this info is out of date but still interesting (data gained from pew research):

33% of liberals believe that dangerous books should be censored

56% Conservatives and more moderate Democrats believe that dangerous books should be banned

All of the examples I have seen so far show that we should fear the left and more progressive groups because they want to censor us (Communists, Socialists and Nazi’s to some extent) yet, at least in the US, more people on the right believe in censorship. Perhaps we are looking the wrong way, and have missed the knife in the dark.
You're saying it like it some kind of static one-side issue - both left and right are perfectly capable of infrigment of Free Speech, in 2000s it was by Right/Conservatives, now it's by Left/Progressives and it won't be a suprise if it will be Right/Conservatives again in 2030s.

It's pretty much cyclical ever since French Revolution when Left/Right classification has been solidified as political structure.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 6. May 21, 15:05

Orly? And what "free speech" has the left been infringing? I'd like to see examples of arrests/sanctions/punitive measures any liberal government has taken to curtail anyone's right to free speech.
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Ketraar
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 6. May 21, 15:27

The one in Spain is pretty "liberal" in American wording (liberal means something different where I live), but I reckon its not related to who is in Government atm. Still the current Gov allowed a person to be sentenced to jail for using words. Thats pretty sad day, even if I think the person is an idiot.

Not sure if the UK gov at the time was "liberal" but they also stood by when a person got convicted for teaching a dog to "impersonate" nazi salute.

Just two that come to mind.

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BaronVerde
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 6. May 21, 17:17

@TeladiCEO: The citing is not from the study and the study has nothing to do with free speech. What you cited is from a press release.

@Ketraar: Jurisdiction in Spain is independent from government. Somewhat ... interesting ... to insinuate that this was not the case.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 6. May 21, 17:26

BaronVerde wrote:
Thu, 6. May 21, 17:17
@Ketraar: Jurisdiction in Spain is independent from government. Somewhat ... interesting ... to insinuate that this was not the case.
Not sure I understand your point, are you saying the Judicial system in Spain is not tied to the goverment?

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fiksal
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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiksal » Fri, 7. May 21, 01:26

So about the person in question then.

Who thinks the sentence is appropriate?


I haven't seen actual lyrics yet, as few news I read on this, had omitted printing them.


And another thought, interesting how this whole thread echoes this one. Except some positions seem reversed on fairly same issue of Freedom of speech / expression.

Switzerland bans face coverings in public


Edit: finally found some, yet I am not positive on what are the worst offenders there. He claimed a terrorist group is not so bad and wished death on some people by name?
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Santi » Sat, 22. May 21, 00:15

Ketraar wrote:
Thu, 6. May 21, 17:26

Not sure I understand your point, are you saying the Judicial system in Spain is not tied to the goverment?

MFG

Ketraar
As other democracies, the Spanish government has a say in the appointment of the judges in the top tier of the judicial system, those that deal with matters regarding the Spanish Constitution and as the ultimate court of appeal. The Supreme Court as is normally known. The government also has its own legal services for advice, defense or prosecuting matters where the government has to be involved.

Apart from that, the Judicial system is independent and is part of the checks and balances system, normally found in democracies.
fiksal wrote:
Fri, 7. May 21, 01:26
So about the person in question then.

Who thinks the sentence is appropriate?


I haven't seen actual lyrics yet, as few news I read on this, had omitted printing them.

Edit: finally found some, yet I am not positive on what are the worst offenders there. He claimed a terrorist group is not so bad and wished death on some people by name?

It is not just the lyrics, Pablo Hasel is a rapper, but also, he is committed to direct action in order to defend his ideas, he has many convictions, some for his singing, others for violence, or incitement to violence and even murder.

It is an interesting case. In one hand, his calls for violence, support for terrorists, and murder do break the law, and Spanish people agree with that and the sentence. In the other hand being condemned for injuries to the Crown, it is view as unfair, because it is a rotten law, it is a privilege of the royal family that allows them to prosecute anyone that dissent with the institution.
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clakclak
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Re: Free Speech

Post by clakclak » Sat, 22. May 21, 02:42

Santi wrote:
Sat, 22. May 21, 00:15
[...]
It is an interesting case. In one hand, his calls for violence, support for terrorists, and murder do break the law, and Spanish people agree with that and the sentence. In the other hand being condemned for injuries to the Crown, it is view as unfair, because it is a rotten law, it is a privilege of the royal family that allows them to prosecute anyone that dissent with the institution.
They also used a series of tweets as evidence against him and I think to get a better idea what we are talking about here we should maybe take a look at what he wrote, because it is not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. The last one especially is probably what many people feel is true, even if they would word it less harshly. Source: https://www.catalannews.com/society-sci ... %20Youtube.
Hasel wrote:24.03.2014

Orgulloso de quienes respondieron a las agresiones de la policía. ​

I’m proud of those who responded to police aggressions

27.03.2014

La policía asesina a 15 inmigrantes y son santitos. El pueblo se defiende de su brutalidad y somos "violentos terroristas, chusma, etc".

Police murder 15 immigrants and they’re saints. People defend themselves from brutality and we’re called "violent terrorists, chusma, etc.”

25.12.2015

El mafioso de mierda del rey dando lecciones desde un palacio, millonario a costa de la miseria ajena. Marca España.

The ****** mobster of a king giving lessons from his palace, a millionaire at the expenses of other people’s misery. Spain’s brand.

25.01.2016

Mientras llaman terrible tiranía a Cuba donde con menos recursos no se desahucia, ocultan los negocios mafiosos del Borbón con Arabia Saudí.

While they call Cuba a terrible tyranny, where there are less resources but no evictions, they hide the Bourbon [king’s] gangster-like businesses with Saudi Arabia

17.03.2016

Cuando la policía utilice sus armas contra los opresores y no contra los oprimidos, empieza a contarnos que son aliados.

When police start using their weapons against oppressors and not the oppressed, you can tell us they’re allies

21.01.2016

Los amigos del reino español bombardeando hospitales mientras Juan Carlos se va de putas con ellos.

The friends of the Spanish kingdom bomb hospitals while [king emeritus] Juan Carlos goes to a whorehouse with them

11.03.2016

Sí nos representan

They do represent us [a photo of Ignacio Várela Gómez, arrested for belonging to Spain’s Communist armed group GRAPO]

07.02.2016

Policías que con Franco encarcelaban y que ahora encarcelan como jueces de la Audiencia Nazi-onal.

Police officers who put people in jail with [dictator Francisco] Franco [in power] and now put people in jail as judges at the Nazi-onal court

04.04.2014

​ ¿Matas a un policía? Te buscan hasta debajo de las piedras ¿Asesina la policía? Ni se investiga bien.

You kill a police officer? They’ll come for you no matter where you are. A police officer murders someone? They don’t investigate it properly
Edit: Deleted the last part of my post as it may shift focus away from the topic at hand.
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Re: Free Speech

Post by theeclownbroze » Mon, 21. Jun 21, 01:12

I believe there are certain things that you shouldn't say like hate speech or inciting of violence.

BUT, I wholeheartedly feel that there should never be legislation that compels what you should say. That's my standing.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by Incubi » Tue, 10. Aug 21, 05:50

When people can not express their views with words, they will express them with their fist.

It doesn't matter what the thing is that is being silenced, not being able to say it is an oppressive act that will often explode in violence. And with no one "talking" about it, everyone will be fighting over it instead. And with todays "burn it down and rebuild" mentality, freedom of speech may be the only thing left before the political despots of both the far right and left cast us into another dark age of stupidity and irreverence for life. We are seeing the beginnings of this already. But I have some faith in humanity left.

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Re: Free Speech

Post by BaronVerde » Tue, 10. Aug 21, 10:27

Most people are naturally peaceful, independent from their educational level. Violence, on an inter- and intraspecies basis, isn't exactly an evolutionary advantage when there are few, like through most of human prehistory, It emerges when there are too many and they compete for resources. And there are too many these days, they don't exactly live in their natural habitats, and it is easy to incite them against each other. Social networks have become the platforms to spread simple messages, and people spending more time there are often times (but it's complicated and debated) found to be less productive and more inclined to accept simple slogans for complex contexts.

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