Switzerland bans face coverings in public

[notaterran]

Link

Swiss voters have approved a ban on full facial coverings including niqab and burqa in nearly all public places in a closely contested referendum on Sunday.

The result means facial covering will be banned in all publicly accessible places, including on the streets, in public offices, on public transport, in restaurants, shops and in the countryside.

As I've said before, I like how Switzerland has found a way to deal with this type of cultural problem. For example, there was the minaret ban in 2009 or forced integration in 2017.

I find this a positive development.

The restrictions also apply to tourists, which makes sense. Obviously, there are exceptions to the law:

[...] exceptions include places of worship and other sacred sites. Face coverings will also be allowed if worn for health and safety reasons, because of the weather and in situations where it is considered a "local custom" to do so, such as at carnivals [...]

[clakclak]

I think this is bad. The state should not force citizens to wear specific clothes.

This is just as bad as any muslim country forcing woman to cover their hair and/or faces.

Let people decide for themselves how they dress.

[fiksal]

so what's the point of this ban exactly?

anti religion?
anti Muslim?
a fear of masked criminals?

[clakclak]

so what's the point of this ban exactly?

anti religion?
anti Muslim?
a fear of masked criminals?

The group that pushed for it is the so called Egerkinger Komitee, they have close relations with the SVP. This was the poster they campainged with it reads: "Stop extremism". The reason should be rather obvious.

[fiksal]

The group that pushed for it is the so called Egerkinger Komitee, they have close relations with the SVP. This was the poster they campainged with it reads: "Stop extremism". The reason should be rather obvious.

so nationalists, anti muslim then

[pjknibbs]

I think this is bad. The state should not force citizens to wear specific clothes.

I completely agree. Not to mention how ridiculous it is introducing something like this at a time when most people are going around in public in masks due to disease--which, yes, is an acknowledged exception to this rule, but what difference does it then make? People are still hiding their faces anyway, which is the only (poor) justification a law like this has in the first place.

[mr.WHO]

Switzerland is the only true democracy on this planet.
Moreover Swiss are one of the smartest societies.
Switzerland is leading as best country to live (sometimes beat by Norway) according to UN ranking.
They prove many times they are sensible, moderate and responsible people - e.g. they rejected universal basic income a few years ago.

If they decided something, it's smart to pay attention to what they are doing - especially if you're living in sh*thole country, which from Swiss perspective is vast majority of this planet (US and UK included).

[clakclak]

Switzerland is the only true democracy on this planet.
Moreover Swiss are one of the smartest societies.
Switzerland is leading as best country to live (sometimes beat by Norway) according to UN ranking.
They prove many times they are sensible, moderate and responsible people - e.g. they rejected universal basic income a few years ago.

If they decided something, it's smart to pay attention to what they are doing - especially if you're living in sh*thole country, which from Swiss perspective is vast majority of this planet (US and UK included).

The Swiss live in a morally bankrupt country.
Edit.
A large amount of their wealth is due to allowing rich people to dodge taxes.
They tolerate thousands of human rights violations commited by Nestlé, a company almost comically evil.
They have proven many times they are greedy hardliners that want to regulate everything including what you can wear, as long as it does not threaten their wealth . e.g. they enacted this recent law, but still don't care about tax dodging.
They have become hypocrites who do exactly what they accuse others of doing.

If they decide something, it's smart to ignore whatever they are doing - especially if you live in a country that does not meassure success by how much wealth one can accumulate if tossing away morality an empathy in the process.


Now, this isn't really what I think of Switzerland. In fact to me it is a country like any other country just very rich and with cheese. That being said I think your comment is extremely onesided and I thought this would be a good way to illustrate it.

Edit: Non of Switzerlands other achievements or failures have any impact on rather or not this particular decision was good.



Edited out: "They were reponsible for 80% of Nazi Germany's forgein trade with countries not involved in the prolonging the fall of the Third Reich." Because it is dumb point to make. Only Germany is responsible for that one.

[mr.WHO]

1) The Swiss live in a morally bankrupt country.
2) They were reponsible for 80% of Nazi Germany's forgein trade with countries not involved in the prolonging the fall of the German Reich.
3) A large amount of their wealth is due to allowing rich people to dodge taxes.
4) They tolerate thousands of human rights violations commited by Nestlé, a company almost comically evil.
5) They have proven many times they are greedy hardliners that want to regulate everything including what you can wear, as long as it does not threaten their wealth . e.g. they enacted this recent law, but still don't care about tax dodging.
6) They have become hypocrites who do exactly what they accuse others of doing.

1) I don't see Swiss caring much about their "moral bankrupcy", nor the shape of the country affairs to go bad anytime soon - unlike many more other "moral" countries.
2) US and neutral countries were all cool trading with Nazi Germany for large part of WW2 - if Japan didn't strike US what would be the odds of US doing exactly the same as Switzerland?
3) Nope - Switzerland got rid of it's taxhaven status around after 2008 crisis, when they dropped the bank secrecy used for tax avoidance.
4) Apple is using slave labor in China and Disney thanked the staff of China concentration camp in Mulan credits. All of us probably buy products from dozens of companies as evil as Nestle. Hugo Boss was making SS uniforms, yet peopel still wear their suits to this day all over the world. NASA was build by intercepted Nazi scientist who where totaly fine using slave labor and death camp labor.
5) Your point is invalid because of point 3 - they got rid of tax evasion long ago.
6) I don't hear Switzerland accusing anybody anywhere, unlike US, Russia, China and several other major countries. To the contrary Switzerland is is more like "I don't give a crap" approach in their external affairs.

[BaronVerde]

Switzerland is small, and not even European. As long as they keep exporing Appenzeller I don't care too much about whatever dresscode they implement.

Not that long ago I was whitness to the transformation of a colleague from the dresscode she was used to to open face and open hair. She's a beauty, actually, and she definitely enjoyed watching the buffalos around her run into street lanterns

[fiksal]

Switzerland is the only true democracy on this planet.
Moreover Swiss are one of the smartest societies.
Switzerland is leading as best country to live (sometimes beat by Norway) according to UN ranking.
They prove many times they are sensible, moderate and responsible people - e.g. they rejected universal basic income a few years ago.

If they decided something, it's smart to pay attention to what they are doing - especially if you're living in sh*thole country, which from Swiss perspective is vast majority of this planet (US and UK included).

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm


So, how's being anti Muslim a good thing for Swiss?

[clakclak]

[...] Three comments above this one.

All of your arguments come down to: Doing something bad is ok, as long as someone else does something that is worse.


Also you conviniently ignored my point, you know, the one that is writen bold.

[...]

Not that long ago I was whitness to the transformation of a colleague from the dresscode she was used to to open face and open hair. She's a beauty, actually, and she definitely enjoyed watching the buffalos around her run into street lanterns

Good for her, bur how would you feel if the government forced you to let's say wear a skirt every day and if you don't show up in a skirt that fits government norms you will face fines or imprisonment, would you be happy you now get to wear a skirt? Maybe. Do you think everyone you know would be happy?

[mr.WHO]

All of your arguments come down to: Doing something bad is ok, as long as someone else does something that is worse.

Still far better than being selectively ignorant and profiting from other people misery and slavery. I bet you feel morally superior while yousing your iPhone and watching Mandalorian and telling people how eco-green you are, when your trash was ferried for processed by child labor in China and India, poluting whole regions.

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm
So, how's being anti Muslim a good thing for Swiss?

No Sarcasm.
Hows face covering bans anti-muslim?
Is Sikh headwear check in airport anti-Sikh?
Is COVID church gathering limitations anti-Christian?

My point is that Swiss are more smart society than most o this planet (with the exception of possibly Singapore, but that one is more authoritarian comparing to Switzerland) - if they, and I mean THEY decided something (as people voting, not as elected goverment official choosing what's good for them), it's not without thougth and reason.

You can try to rich-shame them that they were build on stolen money...just like US, UK, most of Western Europe, but unlike them they are not falling down anytime soon.
If you think they are narrow minded xenophobes, then you must have never been in Switzerland as 15% of their society is 1st gen imigrants and even more later gen.

Same with weapon ownership - they own quite many weapons, yet mass shooting and shootings altogether are much less frequent than in US.


Full face covering burka is a sign of woman degradation and slavery towards men. If you are letting them use it, then you should be fine with South slave owners parading with their slaves too.
Islam, as well as other religions (Christianity included) offer much better alternative in form of simple wrap/headwear, that cover hairs and sometimes neck, but not the face - it's shows that person modesty, but not servitude - it was popular in the West post WW2 and is very popular in more progressive, tourist oriented Muslim countries.

[clakclak]

All of your arguments come down to: Doing something bad is ok, as long as someone else does something that is worse.

Still far better than being selectively ignorant and profiting from other people misery and slavery. I bet you feel morally superior while yousing your iPhone and watching Mandalorian and telling people how eco-green you are, when your trash was ferried for processed by child labor in China and India, poluting whole regions.



[...]

And allready resorting to personal attacks because you ran out of arguments. Nice.

[mr.WHO]

And allready resorting to personal attacks because you ran out of arguments. Nice.

It's not personal...unless I scored 3/3 hits in that one. Even then I was describing modern Western society in general.
It's great to claim moral superiority pointing someone else shortcomings, while doing as bad or worse.

Swiss fare well and in general are happy, so it's very fun to see other people bashing them to mask how miserable are their own contries and lifes.

[clakclak]

And allready resorting to personal attacks because you ran out of arguments. Nice.

It's not personal...unless I scored 3/3 hits in that one. Even then I was describing modern Western society in general.

I don't own an I phone, I do not own disney plus and I do not live eco green. In fact the most "green" thing about me is that I never owned a car and live in a very small apartment.

It's great to claim moral superiority pointing someone else shortcomings, while doing as bad or worse.

Read my post! Do not create a strawmen to argue against from your mind. It states in bold letters that I used this examples to show why I think your one sided view is flawed.

Swiss fare well and in general are happy, so it's very fun to see other people bashing them to mask how miserable are their own contries and lifes.

I does not matter if the Swiss are happy. This law is wrong from my point of view and it would stay wrong even if every Swiss person lived in a constat state of orgasmic joy.

I will happily criticise my own country and also China. When I said No borders No nations in the other post I meant it. I am anti national, meaning I reject all nations, not just the rich ones and not just the poor ones.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

It is clearly an anti-islam law, and it's not good at all.
They're a rich country, they don't have so many issues with people putting a mask and robbing banks, so this law is blatantly xenophobic. They can try to justify their decision any way they want, but it doesn't change the fact this law is just against a culture / religion and not a safety measure.

[mr.WHO]

I does not matter if the Swiss are happy. This law is wrong from my point of view and it would stay wrong even if every Swiss person lived in a constat state of orgasmic joy.

I will happily criticise my own country and also China. When I said No borders No nations in the other post I meant it. I am anti national, meaning I reject all nations, not just the rich ones and not just the poor ones.

Claiming Swiss banning burka is wrong is like claiming that slave collar is fine as a fashion accessory.

Claiming nationalism and borders are wrong is also stupid, especially when claiming that freedom of expresion and religion is a good thing in the same time - if nations would go away nothing will change, people with just find another baseline for divide - religion, skin color, political afiliation or football team and re-draw borders immediately.

Unless we discover sentient Aliens, nations and borders are here to stay for very long.

[Gavrushka]

I've a feeling someone's account has been hacked. I don't like the alternate explanation.

[clakclak]

[...]


Claiming nationalism and borders are wrong is also stupid, especially when claiming that freedom of expresion and religion is a good thing in the same time - if nations would go away nothing will change, people with just find another baseline for divide - religion, skin color, political afiliation or football team and re-draw borders immediately.

Unless we discover sentient Aliens, nations and borders are here to stay for very long.

We are getting offtopic and while I am open to discussing my personal ideals with you and you can always send me a DM, the topic here is Switzerland. Not China and it's slavery and genocide and also not my personal ideals and or believes (which these are as I am NOT in a favour of a violent revolution as that would be worse than the status quo and without it, I do actually agree with you here, borders and nations are here to stay for a very long time. Possibly until humanity exterminates itself.)



So on the topic.

This move is targeted at Muslims, that is something I think all of us so far agreed on, even Mr.Who as he refered to it explicitly as a burka ban and not like the Swiss government as a general ban on face coverings. While we are allready at it, it might be interesting to know how widespread the burka actually is in Switzerland. According to this article there are currently an estimated 30 women living in Switzerland who regularly wear facial coverings that would be banned under the new law in Switzerland (this does not include tourists obviously).

Let's take a look at the relation of religion and government in Switzerland to get a better picture of the current situation.

Some of the Swiss canton governments collect taxes for some select churches (the so called "Landeskirche") as well as some of the jewish communities. These specific taxes are only paid by worhsippers. However certain christian churches are also financed by the government in other ways for example via the business tax or direct subsidies. These have to be paid by anyone including atheists, muslims, buddhists and so on. EDIT: According to the article the catholic church and the Continental Reformed church got roughly 171 million Franken (roughly 153€ million €/182 million US$) in 2016 from their share of the buiness taxes alone. Other religious communities, like certain muslim communities have been trying to also get money from these sources, if they were successful is something I can not say for sure. I must say I think it is bonkers to have tax money go to a religious community you are not part of, no matter what religion they are.