Switzerland bans face coverings in public

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:37

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:33
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:30
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:28


Not really - given that they target EU nationals too, several years ago.
I felt it, when I had to fill my work permit papers in much more detailed manner than before.
Oooooo... paperwork. Scawwy. Must be tough being so marginalized.
If it work, it works - someone will not cross the border because paperwork, someone else because of burka - as I said Swiss are rather pragmatic.
I'm not sure that you understand what pragmatism is, but w/e. If you can equate denying someone's religious liberty to having to fill out some paperwork for entry to a country, then the absurdity of this conversation is on full display and I've had my fill of it.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:45

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:37
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:33
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:30


Oooooo... paperwork. Scawwy. Must be tough being so marginalized.
If it work, it works - someone will not cross the border because paperwork, someone else because of burka - as I said Swiss are rather pragmatic.
I'm not sure that you understand what pragmatism is, but w/e. If you can equate denying someone's religious liberty to having to fill out some paperwork for entry to a country, then the absurdity of this conversation is on full display and I've had my fill of it.
You're not listening me. I don't care for victimization olympics and I don't compare myself to someone abused. I simply stated the fact that Swiss have policy since a decade to cut down all the imigration, not just Muslims in particular.
It's would be easier to spot it, if you would not see racism every second sentence or action. People doesn't care that much about race card outside USA (and Japan, but that's another story).

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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:57

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:45
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:37
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:33


If it work, it works - someone will not cross the border because paperwork, someone else because of burka - as I said Swiss are rather pragmatic.
I'm not sure that you understand what pragmatism is, but w/e. If you can equate denying someone's religious liberty to having to fill out some paperwork for entry to a country, then the absurdity of this conversation is on full display and I've had my fill of it.
You're not listening me. I don't care for victimization olympics and I don't compare myself to someone abused. I simply stated the fact that Swiss have policy since a decade to cut down all the imigration, not just Muslims in particular.
It's would be easier to spot it, if you would not see racism every second sentence or action. People doesn't care that much about race card outside USA (and Japan, but that's another story).
Whatever you say, Tucker.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:05

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:57
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:45
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:37


I'm not sure that you understand what pragmatism is, but w/e. If you can equate denying someone's religious liberty to having to fill out some paperwork for entry to a country, then the absurdity of this conversation is on full display and I've had my fill of it.
You're not listening me. I don't care for victimization olympics and I don't compare myself to someone abused. I simply stated the fact that Swiss have policy since a decade to cut down all the imigration, not just Muslims in particular.
It's would be easier to spot it, if you would not see racism every second sentence or action. People doesn't care that much about race card outside USA (and Japan, but that's another story).
Whatever you say, Tucker.
What now? Should I call you Don Lemon?

Again you're trying to project your american issues onto other people.

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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:08

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:05
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:57
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 17:45


You're not listening me. I don't care for victimization olympics and I don't compare myself to someone abused. I simply stated the fact that Swiss have policy since a decade to cut down all the imigration, not just Muslims in particular.
It's would be easier to spot it, if you would not see racism every second sentence or action. People doesn't care that much about race card outside USA (and Japan, but that's another story).
Whatever you say, Tucker.
What now? Should I call you Don Lemon?

Again you're trying to project your american issues onto other people.
I don't care what you have to say anymore. You've made your position quite clear and what you support. I'm never going to agree with you. Sorry, you'll have to find a way to be okay with that. Or not, I really don't care.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by CBJ » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:14

Right. Now that we've got that out of the way, can we go back to discussing the topic in hand rather than each other? To be clear, this is not just a request.

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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:45

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 18:08
I don't care what you have to say anymore. You've made your position quite clear and what you support. I'm never going to agree with you. Sorry, you'll have to find a way to be okay with that. Or not, I really don't care.
Same here. I'm OK with the fact that you will not agree with me. Might be hard to tell, but I enjoyed the discussion despite the outcome.

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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Chips » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 20:52

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 02:33
And obtw, I just discovered the Swiss also outlawed construction of Minarets(part of a Mosque) anywhere in the country 12 years ago.

Please, explain to me how the Swiss aren't racists? I can't wait to hear you guys spin this one...
Reassuring you're reading around a topic prior to forming opinions and labelling a nation on the xth page of a topic. Did that include the voter turn out and the majority/minority representations of the cantons? That's largely irrelevant, just surprising you didn't know prior!

Anyhew - I'd merely point out - racism is about race and religion is not limited to a race.
Nor is a race limited to a religion. Banning minarets a racist doth not you make. Persecuting a religion? Yes (to me at least anyway).

The minaret ban doesn't prevent building of mosques... indeed, outrage in Iran of all places because one was constructed without one. The last line of the article may be of particular focus though. Worth considering.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -in-tehran

Must admit, I'd be entirely baffled by the point of the ban -- it makes them more attractive which is surely a good thing. However, it's up for the courts to decide if it's discriminatory and have it repealed.


Are the Swiss racist? No. That was easy.

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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 21:10

Chips wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 20:52
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 02:33
And obtw, I just discovered the Swiss also outlawed construction of Minarets(part of a Mosque) anywhere in the country 12 years ago.

Please, explain to me how the Swiss aren't racists? I can't wait to hear you guys spin this one...
Reassuring you're reading around a topic prior to forming opinions and labelling a nation on the xth page of a topic. Did that include the voter turn out and the majority/minority representations of the cantons? That's largely irrelevant, just surprising you didn't know prior!

Anyhew - I'd merely point out - racism is about race and religion is not limited to a race.
Nor is a race limited to a religion. Banning minarets a racist doth not you make. Persecuting a religion? Yes (to me at least anyway).

The minaret ban doesn't prevent building of mosques... indeed, outrage in Iran of all places because one was constructed without one. The last line of the article may be of particular focus though. Worth considering.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -in-tehran

Must admit, I'd be entirely baffled by the point of the ban -- it makes them more attractive which is surely a good thing. However, it's up for the courts to decide if it's discriminatory and have it repealed.


Are the Swiss racist? No. That was easy.
Ok fine, it's not racism. It's still abhorrent discrimination whatever ism you want to apply to it, if there even is an ism to describe religious bigots. And you'll note that I said "some, leading to most" since you're jumping in an the end and reading up on things :roll:

You and I both know the intent is to drive Muslim people away, in both cases. The Minaret ban wasn't repealed, and likely this will not be either.

And like this case, the Swiss government also said about the Minaret ban:
On 28 August 2008 the Swiss Federal Council opposed a building ban on minarets. It said that the popular initiative against their construction had been submitted in accordance with the applicable regulations, but infringed guaranteed international human rights and contradicted the core values of the Swiss Federal Constitution.
So what's clear to me is that the Swiss constitution is just thing that can be discarded should the mob decide to do so, and right now, the mob doesn't seem to be made up of anyone I would care to call a decent person.
Last edited by Vertigo 7 on Thu, 11. Mar 21, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 22:45

So will the Swiss Federal Council / Constitution overturn this "bourka ban"?

That's not meant to be a loaded question. I don't know the answer!
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 22:49

RegisterMe wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 22:45
So will the Swiss Federal Council / Constitution overturn this "bourka ban"?

That's not meant to be a loaded question. I don't know the answer!
I don't have any reason to believe they will. They didn't overturn the Minaret ban, I can't see them doing that here either.

FYI - That statement I quoted was before the vote on the Minaret ban as the government was encouraging people to vote against it, just as they did with the burqa ban.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 11. Mar 21, 23:28

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Thu, 11. Mar 21, 22:49
FYI - That statement I quoted was before the vote on the Minaret ban as the government was encouraging people to vote against it, just as they did with the burqa ban.
Ahh ok, I missed that, thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by greypanther » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:27

I just want to ask a couple of questions, to satisfy my curiosity.

Why is it only Switzerland that are being accused of being a racist country, when there are several other countries in Europe with a similar ban, some in place for quite a while?

Secondly, seeing that in Denmark, ( for example, ) it was apparently said: the garment is often described as oppressing women and incompatible with Danish values, ( according to Wiki, :roll: ) why is no one accusing those who voted against the ban, of being sexist? In Denmark it also was not just the Burqa that was banned, but sexism seems to be part of the consideration.

I would consider the potential charge of sexism, to be possible, considering I have seen one Muslim woman having a panic attack, as an Iman approached, shortly after one Ramadan.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:35

greypanther wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:27
I just want to ask a couple of questions, to satisfy my curiosity.

Why is it only Switzerland that are being accused of being a racist country, when there are several other countries in Europe with a similar ban, some in place for quite a while?

Secondly, seeing that in Denmark, ( for example, ) it was apparently said: the garment is often described as oppressing women and incompatible with Danish values, ( according to Wiki, :roll: ) why is no one accusing those who voted against the ban, of being sexist? In Denmark it also was not just the Burqa that was banned, but sexism seems to be part of the consideration.

I would consider the potential charge of sexism, to be possible, considering I have seen one Muslim woman having a panic attack, as an Iman approached, shortly after one Ramadan.
Well for one, this was about Switzerland. You wanna start threads about other countries and bigoted laws, I'll be happy to comment.

Two, as was pointed out many times in this thread, not every woman wearing a burqa is oppressed. There are many that do so by their own choice. Removing that choice is, in fact, oppression.

As I've said before, if you wanna tackle the issues of oppression by dealing with the oppressors, by all means. But claiming something is being done because of oppression without actually addressing said oppression is nothing short of a lie.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by greypanther » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:41

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:35
But claiming something is being done because of oppression without actually addressing said oppression is nothing short of a lie.
So, if you were in charge, how would you deal with that oppression? I ask because I feel very sure that it exists, but is by it's nature in this case, covered up and denied by most.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by fiksal » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:47

greypanther wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:27
I just want to ask a couple of questions, to satisfy my curiosity.

Why is it only Switzerland that are being accused of being a racist country, when there are several other countries in Europe with a similar ban, some in place for quite a while?

Secondly, seeing that in Denmark, ( for example, ) it was apparently said: the garment is often described as oppressing women and incompatible with Danish values, ( according to Wiki, :roll: ) why is no one accusing those who voted against the ban, of being sexist? In Denmark it also was not just the Burqa that was banned, but sexism seems to be part of the consideration.

I would consider the potential charge of sexism, to be possible, considering I have seen one Muslim woman having a panic attack, as an Iman approached, shortly after one Ramadan.


I dont talk about other countries because I am not aware of the bans in other countries. But it's a worthy topic.

So, Denmark, let's briefly see
https://www.thelocal.dk/20190801/one-ye ... -23-fines/
A controversial ban on wearing face-masking garments in public, widely referred to as the ‘burqa ban’, came into effect in Denmark on August 1st last year.

Since then, 23 people have been fined under the law, according to National Police figures reported by Kristeligt Dagblad.

The ban came into effect a year ago on Thursday, imposing a fine of 1,000 kroner (134 euros) for first offences on individuals wearing garments including the burqa, which covers a person's entire face, or the niqab, which only shows the eyes, as well as other accessories that hide the face such as balaclavas.

Hundreds of people protested against the ban in Copenhagen and Aarhus on August 1st last year. The Local attended the demonstration which took place in the Nørrebro neighbourhood in the capital and spoke to niqab-wearing women about the law.

...

Broadly, proponents claimed the ban would prevent suppression of women’s rights. When it proposed the law change, the Ministry of Justice said that the burqa and niqab were not “compatible with the values and sense of community in Danish society”.

Critics said that the ban infringed religious freedom – something Denmark’s constitution guarantees – and Amnesty International in 2018 condemned the law as a “discriminatory violation of women's rights”, especially against Muslim women who choose to wear the full-face veils.

The effectiveness the burqa ban is difficult to measure given the low number of fines issued, according to Margit Warburg, a sociologist specializing in religion at the University of Copenhagen’s Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies.

“You can’t say, based on 23 fines, whether the ban works as it was intended. Maybe the (affected) women don’t go out very much? Maybe no-one calls the police? Or it could be because people actually have removed their niqab. In reality, we don’t know,” Warburg told Kristeligt Dagblad.

The number of people who wear the Islamic veil in Denmark is limited to approximately 150-200 niqab wearers, around half of whom are converts to Islam, Warburg estimates. Very few women – perhaps none at all – wear the burqa, according to the researcher, who led a 2009 report on the prevalence of the Islamic veil in the country.

Looks to me it's the same ban as in Switzerland.

The law that penalizes the victims (specifically 123 EUR each; and I bet followed by forceful / involuntary removal of the said clothing).

The law also comes with no way to check if it has a negative or positive affect on anything. A law that cant be checked or does nothing is a useless law. Penalizing people for nothing - makes it a bad law, even before we talk about it being whether it's bigoted.

Plus the same time in Denmark's case, apparently it's claimed to be also unconstitutional (unlike, as I understand in Switzerland's case, where religious freedom isn't guaranteed... or I've not read anything stating otherwise yet on this matter). Yet that's more than 1 year ago, so I assume Denmark's courts either didn't agree or didn't rule, or something else.
Last edited by fiksal on Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:51

greypanther wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:41
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:35
But claiming something is being done because of oppression without actually addressing said oppression is nothing short of a lie.
So, if you were in charge, how would you deal with that oppression? I ask because I feel very sure that it exists, but is by it's nature in this case, covered up and denied by most.
Surely there are laws in Switzerland that deal with domestic abuse. If there isn't any, I'd start there and start arresting people beating their wives and daughters, if that's happening in Switzerland. As I understand the current situation there, there's maybe a dozen or so women wearing a burqa in the entire country. I can't imagine it being too difficult to find and monitor suspects. And that's if it's even occurring. So far, I've not seen any evidence that it is.

However, this vote clearly had little, if anything to do with that. The campaigning was almost entirely about ending Muslim extremism and was fraught with imagery of violent Muslim women. The kind of thing that's typical of right wing politicians anywhere in the world.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by fiksal » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 22:01

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:51
greypanther wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:41
So, if you were in charge, how would you deal with that oppression? I ask because I feel very sure that it exists, but is by it's nature in this case, covered up and denied by most.
Surely there are laws in Switzerland that deal with domestic abuse. If there isn't any, I'd start there and start arresting people beating their wives and daughters, if that's happening in Switzerland. As I understand the current situation there, there's maybe a dozen or so women wearing a burqa in the entire country. I can't imagine it being too difficult to find and monitor suspects. And that's if it's even occurring. So far, I've not seen any evidence that it is.
On the page 13 we get finally a great question! How do you indeed.

I myself am not versed in social services even in US..., - so the question is how does Switzerland (or US, or Denmark, etc) deal with abuse and violence within families, married couples, communities, among religious communities? In US we have secretive communities where such crime is potentially hard to track - among Mormons, Amish, maybe Evangelicals?

Possibly more googling is needed, understanding what services are available to women(and men) in abusive households. A default question would be - are those services funded sufficiently?
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by greypanther » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 22:03

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 21:51
I can't imagine it being too difficult to find and monitor suspects.
You wouldn't think so would you? However there have been several cases of child abuse in the UK for instance, where abuse by men of Asian decent was ignored, because the Social Worker was afraid of being accused of being a racist. Then there is the case where a Judge accused one of the victims of being all but a prostitute, if I am remembering things correctly...

I would say there is a very fine line here, even though we all wish it were not so, I am sure.

@fiksal: there are several to go on the list, some surprising with large Muslim communities. Such as France and the Netherlands.
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Re: Switzerland bans face coverings in public

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Mar 21, 22:11

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 12. Mar 21, 22:01
On the page 13 we get finally a great question! How do you indeed.

I myself am not versed in social services even in US..., - so the question is how does Switzerland (or US, or Denmark, etc) deal with abuse and violence within families, married couples, communities, among religious communities? In US we have secretive communities where such crime is potentially hard to track - among Mormons, Amish, maybe Evangelicals?

Possibly more googling is needed, understanding what services are available to women(and men) in abusive households. A default question would be - are those services funded sufficiently?
That's been the whole reasoning of the "defund the police" thing in the US. We don't really have any social services of that nature any longer and all domestic issues are being handled by the police instead of people trained to deal with those specific issues. I have no idea what it looks like in Switzerland but whatever standard they use for non-Muslims could and should be used for any Muslims in the country.
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