Healthcare Systems

[Vertigo 7]

Hint: Just cause the internet said it was good system, doesn't mean its a good system..

You haven't done anything but show the current US approach to healthcare is a joke, which everyone here has said as much. Since you're the expert here with gobs of first hand experience, exactly what do you think we should be doing?

[pjknibbs]

Its paid for off the backs of your working class, and its siphoned off in 'Cadillac' plans by your elites.

You know, the mere fact you think that "elites" use the NHS shows just how little about this subject you actually know. We still have private healthcare available in this country, and most of those with the money to pay will be using it, not waiting their turn on the NHS. As for old folks drooling wondering where their wheelchair is, the fact is, we have a chance to get old and drool without going bankrupt due to healthcare costs along the way. My 84-year-old mother, who's had occasion to use the NHS's services for broken fingers and wrist, a heart attack and a broken hip over the past 20 years, is undoubtedly very happy that she didn't have to sell her house or any other treasured possessions to pay for all that.

[Aken_Bosch]

About private clinics: in Italy, even a lot of treatments in private clinics is paid by public healthcare system...

Do you have private health insurance?

Nope.
Most of private clinics have some sort of "agreement" with the public healthcare system. This way, if you have to operate the thyroid or the meniscus or something like that, even if you go to a private clinic, your cost is covered by the public.

Just to add a bit of clarification to what Brasato wrote, we indeed have private health insurances in Italy, it's just that they are more of a personal choice and/or a convenience, rather than something mandatory to avoid risking life for a simple appendicitis. Several job contracts include private insurance plans covering a series of health occurrences, from simple routine exams to complex procedures, it's up to to the insured to take advantage of them or not, depending on circumstances.
Just to give a personal example: about a year ago I had to make a series of exams for screening. For blood/urine I opted to do them via the public health service, since there are virtually no waiting times, the fixed cost (the "ticket") is lower than private and I could still get a refund via my private job insurance, only having to pay a tiny deductible on it (10-20%, can't remember at the moment).
I also had to do an ecography, but under public service the queue for those are generally quite long, on the order of several months, so for that one I went to one of the private clinics Barolo mentioned, where I could have it done in a matter of days by paying a fixed deductible (higher than public, but still a fraction of the exam cost) with my insurance covering the rest. That clinic (as most of others) offers its service as both private and public healthcare via the aforementioned agreements; while they get a direct source of income from the services offered privately, they can still benefit from having sort of a fixed quota of income from taxes (it's more complex than this, but you get the idea) for the services offered as national healthcare. In some way, it's win-win for them, win-win for the patients.

That said, if you happen to have a stroke, an accident, the need for an emergency transplant, whatever, you'll get treated, no matter what, no questions asked. The nominal "ticket" fee (amount may vary from a few euros to a few dozens) will only be payed for standard exams or routine, non emergency procedures. If you are unemployed or poor below a certain threshold you are exempted, if you are disabled or suffer from some serious or chronical diseases (like cancer, some autoimmune diseases and such) you are exempted, and so on. My mother underwent surgery for breast cancer and had to pay nothing for it, takes a long series of drugs for that and related pathologies for which she pays almost nothing, and is now living on permanent home oxygen therapy for which she is still paying nothing. Several years ago, my father-in-law underwent months of experimental chemoterapy to treat severe leukemia, having to pay none for a dozen of chemo shots that were worth 900 € a pop. If people like him and my mother are still around and we are not living under a bridge yet, it's only because we have the luck of living in a place with socialized healtcare, as most of the places around the world actually are in one way or another.

To comment on who thinks that these kind of systems are wrong, a waste of resources, or whatever other inane rambling, it's really not worth any additional minute of my time, so I'll just leave it at that.

[PaperDog]

Its paid for off the backs of your working class, and its siphoned off in 'Cadillac' plans by your elites.

You know, the mere fact you think that "elites" use the NHS shows just how little about this subject you actually know. We still have private healthcare available in this country, and most of those with the money to pay will be using it, not waiting their turn on the NHS. As for old folks drooling wondering where their wheelchair is, the fact is, we have a chance to get old and drool without going bankrupt due to healthcare costs along the way. My 84-year-old mother, who's had occasion to use the NHS's services for broken fingers and wrist, a heart attack and a broken hip over the past 20 years, is undoubtedly very happy that she didn't have to sell her house or any other treasured possessions to pay for all that.

Two words for you : "Sadly naive".

I never said the elites 'used' the system...I said they siphon off of it. Do I really need to spell this out? Your govt is in the "insurance " business...(because insurance is exceedingly lucrative for your elites) and I bet you can't name one member in your parliament, who is certifiably 'poor'. Our govt saw how rich yours was getting, and now they want to do the same thing...force socialized medicine down 'everybody's' throats. It 'appears like a good thing until you realize the real cost. Your Margaret Thatcher even said once; "Socialism works great until you run out of other peoples money" . Ok I'm done with this chat... We can just agree to disagree.

[Mightysword]

That said, if you happen to have a stroke, an accident, the need for an emergency transplant, whatever, you'll get treated, no matter what, no questions asked. The nominal "ticket" fee (amount may vary from a few euros to a few dozens) will only be payed for standard exams or routine, non emergency procedures. If you are unemployed or poor below a certain threshold you are exempted, if you are disabled or suffer from some serious or chronical diseases (like cancer, some autoimmune diseases and such) you are exempted, and so on. My mother underwent surgery for breast cancer and had to pay nothing for it, takes a long series of drugs for that and related pathologies for which she pays almost nothing, and is now living on permanent home oxygen therapy for which she is still paying nothing. Several years ago, my father-in-law underwent months of experimental chemoterapy to treat severe leukemia, having to pay none for a dozen of chemo shots that were worth 900 € a pop. If people like him and my mother are still around and we are not living under a bridge yet, it's only because we have the luck of living in a place with socialized healtcare, as most of the places around the world actually are in one way or another.

It's not really different in the US.

- It's not the getting treatment part that is the worst problem. Hospital in the US are under the law required to treat anyone in an emergency. Even if you're an illegal immigrant without a single penny or paper on you, they will treat and save your life. It's the cost that come after it is the problem, without insurance or government coverage, it can bankrupt or put a collateral on everything you own.
- If you are old enough to receive medicare, than your medical care is free irregardless of what you get: cancer, stroke you name it, you get it for free. Only one catch: you have to be either citizen or legal immigrant. Like I said illegal immigrant get that too, but afterward they're likely deported.
- I personal know a deathbeat of a man. In the last 20 years he had turned most of his paycheck into alchohold. A few years ago things finally caught up to him, got a stroke due to drug overdoze and had one foot in deathdoor. The hospital treated him for 3 months and save his life. Now with half of his body paralyze, he's living in a care house with all expense covered by the government. He is a legal immigrant.
- In most states if you're poor enough, you'll get medicare which is something like medicaid-light.

But if you doesn't fall into the old, the poor, or the disable category, then it sucks if you don't meet one of the two following:
- You works on a job that provide insurance coverage.
- You have enough income to get your own.

Otherwise, you gonna have to pray you don't get sick. You can be someone who's living relatively comfortable and are only 1 hospital trip away from bankruptcy or having your house up as a collateral. Self-employed, partimers, gig-workers are the one most at risk for this.

[fiksal]

@Aken_Bosch

Sounds good, thanks for clarification.

@Mightysword
Yep.
It's also a matter of a good insurance. Some people I know can go to a doctor any time without much fees, some I know have to plan carefully if they want to go a clinic or skip seeing a doctor. Their deductible is quite high and % covered is not great.

Plus as mentioned, Emergencies will patch you up, but after they are done they will tell you to see your doctor/specialist, and get your prescriptions from them, and on your way you go.

[pjknibbs]

Two words for you : "Sadly naive".

I never said the elites 'used' the system...I said they siphon off of it. Do I really need to spell this out? Your govt is in the "insurance " business...(because insurance is exceedingly lucrative for your elites) and I bet you can't name one member in your parliament, who is certifiably 'poor'.

I'm struggling to see why this is in any way relevant? As far as I can see, the conversation was about comparisons between the UK and US health services. Frankly, if our "elites" are creaming so much off the top that the NHS is more corrupt than the US health system, that just makes the fact we still get comparable outcomes for less than half the money the US spends even *more* impressive, because more of our budget is going to the fat cats.

[Chips]

Unlike you...(an armchair quarterback , subject to the Dunning-Kruger effect ) I have first-hand experience in how our healthcare systems work. (If you read the whole thread you would have caught that) I have witnessed directly, the issue of our fraud, waste and abuse in our system. I have even worked side-by side with CMS regional directors (The top guns responsible for mitigating the CMS system flaws, nationally) . You, on the other hand, obviously have no experience, or any idea of what you are talking about. (This was evidenced by your self indulgent and rather pointless explanation on the word "free"....) Hint: Just cause the internet said it was good system, doesn't mean its a good system..
I cant speak to the NHS program, but I do know for a fact that its not Free...Its paid for off the backs of your working class, and its siphoned off in 'Cadillac' plans by your elites. SO, by all means, continue to defend your old folks Jello factory. Someday, for any number of health reasons, you will be forced sit in some convalescence home, drooling in front of the BBC, while you ask yourself how it is that you never got that free wheel chair they promised. But hey , I hear that Cherry -Lime jello is da bomb!

I specifically made zero mention of your healthcare system. I have zero care about your healthcare system. I do not give a monkeys about your experience or waste, of fraud, in your healthcare system. Your experience of the US healthcare system has no bearing on my post. As I said, i specifically pass no comment or comparison with the US system.

YOU talked about OUR healthcare system though - and not only were you completely wrong... you evidently had no idea what you were talking about it. Now you say you can't speak for it - good. Shame you didn't realise that before (go back and read your posts in this thread from the start) you started.

If you felt patronised that someone spelt out what was meant by free, yet still babble on about it not being "free" in your response to it... you LITERALLY missed the point and what was written *FACEPALM*. Can't help you on that one... try reading my post again maybe? And concentrate.

Meanwhile, I still do not understand your superiority complex with "oh and you'll sit dribbling in your old age because I THINK THAT I'M RIGHT". Give it a rest already, this isn't playschool with a "my dad is better than yours" type mentality you continue to exhibit...

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I guess US and European systems look pretty much the same if you're very rich.

[Alan Phipps]

Dont' bother responding to personal PaperDog posts as they are not with us here any more. Carry on with the thread topic if it interests you though.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

To add something more on Italian system (but I guess it works like everywhere else in Europe), the price of drugs is "fixed" or calmed down by law. You, as a pharma corp, can't sell anything at your price, but you must sell at a price somewhat forced by the public healthcare system (you're not going to sell at a loss, obviously).