New PC

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CBJ
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Re: New PC

Post by CBJ » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:59

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 20:48
Do I need an independent processor cooler (air, not water) ?
Personally I'd say yes, but don't write off liquid cooling too quickly. There are various self-contained liquid cooling solutions for CPUs these days, which don't require complicated specialist fitting knowledge, and aren't horrendously expensive. As well as giving good cooling for your CPU, they are also much smaller than the equivalent air cooling solutions, which makes everything from airflow to access inside the case easier. As a bonus they are often quieter too. Decent examples, in my experience, are the H80 and H100 from Corsair. And yes, you'll need to make sure you have thermal paste, even if your cooling solution comes with it, as you may need it if you end up having to re-seat things.

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09

Wow, that's alot of reaction in a short time, thank you :-). Will go through everything, give me some time.

Edit:
pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:54
Not sure what the benefit is of having two drives if they're both SSDs, TBH...I usually have a reasonable sized one as my main system drive (it's a 1Tb M.2 unit in this PC) and use spinning rust for *really* big stuff, because it's cheaper. If I was going to spec up a machine with two SSDs then I'd rather just get one that was the same capacity as the other two put together, makes things simpler and SSDs don't fragment like hard drives do so it's not a problem to have everything on one.
Yeah, fragmentation is a file system thing, it is not an issue for me. If it was, there are a variety of file systems with theor respective settings and tools to choose from. SSDs additionally do their own internal logic indepently from the file system, I believe. Am not an expert :-)

For me, the rationale of dividing up system and data stuff is I can switch to another flavour of the OS any time (which I did in the beginning, less so lately), or when I installed too much stuff and lost somewhat control and overview, I can just erase the system and install a new one without even touching data. So I can just be sure that even if I partition the system drive anew, for instance to change swap size, use another more modern file system, home will not be affected. There's also a "historic" aspect to it. In the beginning I had a single system drive and a raid stack for data. I got away from that because I don't really need it (when was the last time a hard drives went on permanent strike ?) and it is configuration overhead one has to keep in mind.

But I plan to stick with the two drive setup, just to be an the more flexible side. And it is not a big cost factor ...

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Re: New PC

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 01:20

Guess a question to define a new PC specification might be, what do you expect from the upgrade.

If it's for the fun of it & 'want' then spend as much as you can justify,
otherwise best not to expect too much, to not get disappointed.

i.e. assuming you've got a working i7-6700, how much 'faster' are you wishing for example a new £$3000 i7-11700 / RTX-3080ti system to be ?

Problem is in the last 10 years CPU clock freq. hasn't really gone up much
(Moore's-law has gone on holiday, until optical/quantum CPUs arrive)
and realistically you may 'only' get an overall processing speed factor of 2 (if you're lucky).

Memory speeds have increased, but not so much you'd see an amazingly great effect.

General design e.g caching & MB bus speeds etc contribute to more fluidity & responsiveness,
but it all just seems to add up to this approx. x2 performance.

GPUs are a different story, muchly speed gains, *if* you're playing GPU intensive games,
otherwise not so important - although a GTX-970 could be upgraded easily to something more oomphy.

Personally I've stuck with upgrading my i7-2700K for the last 10 years,
but will occasionally got to the 9900K/RTX-2070 laptop to get a somewhat more fluid X4 playing experience.
Gone are the years when I used to upgrade every 2 years, when there was a x4 performance increase available.

On the topic of screws/cables - if you go for self-build from seperate boxes of MB/case/etc,
you'll be hoovering up the excess screws from the carpet & you'll have boxes of spare cables for years :)

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Re: New PC

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 08:27

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09
Yeah, fragmentation is a file system thing, it is not an issue for me. If it was, there are a variety of file systems with theor respective settings and tools to choose from. SSDs additionally do their own internal logic indepently from the file system, I believe. Am not an expert :-)
The reason I said SSDs don't really suffer from fragmentation is because there isn't any seek time with an SSD--it takes the same amount of time for one to locate the next piece of data at the far end of the drive as it does if said data is the very next block, so even if a file is split into hundreds of fragments it won't take the SSD any longer to read it all.

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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 10:28

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09
For me, the rationale of dividing up system and data stuff is I can switch to another flavour of the OS any time, or when I installed too much stuff and lost somewhat control and overview, I can just erase the system and install a new one without even touching data.
That is a very good strategy.

The way I see it, there are three datasets: (A) system files, (B) configuration, and (C) user data. The A can be recreated at any time. The C is valuable and must have backups. The B is applied to A; you have copy "outside" that you apply from into fresh A. (Ansible, Chef, Puppet, etc tools make the "apply" easier. Some of them work with OS X and Windows too.)

For a long time I've left part of disk unallocated. One reason was to leave more blocks for the SSD wear leveling to play with. Another, the main reason is to have space for allocating the "next /" when the time comes.

With MBR that (creating many partitions) was not trivial, but with GPT there is plenty of room in the table. The other, more flexible option is LVM.

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$ lsblk
NAME         MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT
nvme0n1      259:3    0 745.2G  0 disk  
├─nvme0n1p1  259:4    0   200M  0 part  /boot/efi
├─nvme0n1p2  259:5    0   500M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p3  259:6    0    16G  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p4  259:7    0     4G  0 part  [SWAP]
├─nvme0n1p5  259:8    0   180G  0 part  /home
├─nvme0n1p6  259:9    0    16M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p7  259:10   0 519.5G  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p8  259:11   0   532M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p9  259:12   0     1G  0 part  /boot
└─nvme0n1p10 259:13   0    20G  0 part  /
In that list the nvme0n1p3 is the / of previous OS. I could still access it (automounter), but essentially it is already expendable.

The user data is in /home. Not on physically separate media, but still clearly distinct from the OS files.

I have dual boot menu ... in UEFI.

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 18:40

Yep, in the beginning of my life with Linux I kept lively data like /var on a a different partition as well. just because I found a fancy long list of partitions, well, fancy :-)

Ok. It is ordered, thanks for your help !

Since I live behind customs barriers it may take 4 weeks and need additional paperwork. I look forward to how this turns out. :boron:

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 21:41

Guys, do you use or recommend dust filters for the intake fans ?

My PCs allways stand on the floor and thus are full of aeolian sediments aka dust. Every now and then I open the cases and cause some uproar among the dust, but leave the sticky fine grained stuff. Now the new case comes with glass doors so there's at least optical inconvenience with the dust.

I see dust filters exist and come in all complexity and price levels, and I could watch hours long yt videos, but that's not so effective :-)

Any experience, do they help, and more important don't the impact airflow too much ? Do they tend to get clogged ?
Last edited by BaronVerde on Fri, 23. Jul 21, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New PC

Post by CBJ » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 21:45

I'm pretty sure a dust filter will impede the airflow a fair bit less than a thick layer of dust all over your PC's internals. It's also easier, and less risky, to clean regularly. Personally I would always use filters where possible.

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:01

Additional filters, that is. My question was imprecise.

Well yeah, but dust on the parts doesn't hamper airflow through the case. All the cases have some sort of net or perforated shroud in front of the intakes that holds back the coarser clasts so to say, it is the fine stuff that gets through and precipitates inside.

Am just thinking, if I had more suction fans than intake, than there'd be a slight acceleration inside and possibly less opportunity for dust to stay in, right ?

Oh well, looks like I am overthinking this ... :-)

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Re: New PC

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:51

no, dust in the case doesn't impede airflow but it does trap heat on the ICs it settles on and will cause other issues if left to accumulate. In turn, the dust filters trap most of the dust and provide you an easy method to clean off without having to disassemble your PC or move it to the garage to get the air compressor after it.
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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:57

BaronVerde wrote:
Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:01
Am just thinking, if I had more suction fans than intake, than there'd be a slight acceleration inside and possibly less opportunity for dust to stay in, right ?
There are debates about what is better.

One view is that if you have more exhaust than intake, then air will enter via all openings of the case. Likewise, if you have more intake than exhaust, then air enters via those fans that have dust filters, so dust from incoming air is more likely to hit the filter.

Furthermore, turbulent air might be more effective at taking heat than air that flows straight through, i.e. if true, supports the "more intake" setup.

If you have layer of dust on your components, it will be insulating transfer of heat.


Which case did you choose? Does it have easy to clean filters?

There are third party filters, like DEMCiflex, for cases that do not have filters of their own.

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Re: New PC

Post by Tamina » Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:59

This is the reference I am using for this question if I EVER come around building my own PC ^^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLX54ounENY Correct me if this is wrong or if there is a better one :)

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 00:59

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 23. Jul 21, 22:57
Which case did you choose? Does it have easy to clean filters?

There are third party filters, like DEMCiflex, for cases that do not have filters of their own.
They offered me this one box: https://www.nox-xtreme.com/en/chassis/h ... ck-edition. I didn't have much of a choice from a local supplier, that's why I dropped the 'no lights' specification.

Reading the hints here I do tend to additional filtering, but I will wait until I see everything before me.

Thanks, @Tamina, will have a look at the video.

Edit: To summarize, and someone interrupt me if I am wrong :-):
In order to have flow through the case we need some fans suck in, some fans blow out. Flow through the case inevitably trivially means dust inside, so we want to protect the intake fans with filters, specifically the ones on the bottom if the case is standing on the floor. Further details depend on the case and setup.

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Re: New PC

Post by Tamina » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 12:21

Yeah but surprisingly the one with only intakes has more dust than the one with fans going out only.
Like I would have imagined the overpressure causing the dust not being able to settle while the underpressure is sucking dust in through all unfiltered gaps.. but apparently it is the other way around ^^

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 13:01

@jlehtone wrote:
Furthermore, turbulent air might be more effective at taking heat than air that flows straight through, i.e. if true, supports the "more intake" setup.
That's interesting. I know from architecture that it is the laminar flow that cools pretty effectively by removing heat, while turbulent flow can collect heat better from a surface ... but only to a degree because it's the delta between surface and air temperature that determines the amount of heat taken up. So, if local turbulence remains too long, it becomes very ineffective. A physics guy would probably find a more fancy description with advection, convection, transport and all that :-)

That's also why I believe that only one direction (in XOR out) is not the right way to go if the premise is to remove heat from the box. It may be an approach to reduce dust simply because the volume of air pumped through the box (and thuis the amount of particles in supension) is much less compared to a setup designed for throughput.

Yes, while apparently 'keep dust out' and 'cool the interior' are mutually exclusive requirements, I would now also assume the best(tm) way is to have a slight overpressure, so that intakes can be filtered and all the other openings have mostly outflow. That reduces dust in the first place while guaranteeing a constant flow, and that what still settles will be removed manually every now or rather then. A slight temperature rise from the compression is probably negligible. Thi is more of a question than assertion, though.

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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 13:33

Did LTT do any video when they did set up those boxes a year earlier about the cooling efficiency of the three modes?
BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 00:59
In order to have flow through the case we need some fans suck in, some fans blow out. Flow through the case inevitably trivially means dust inside, so we want to protect the intake fans with filters, specifically the ones on the bottom if the case is standing on the floor. Further details depend on the case and setup.
So it seems.

I have had something under the case to provide more airspace. This example has small blocks (even though it isn't on floor): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yg3dsM ... sp=sharing

Frankly, pictures of cases directly on fluffy carpet give a bad feeling.


The Nox Hummer Nexus has filters on top and side with magnets. Easy to take out and clean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR_MwH6Zn3k
Filter at bottom does not look as easy: https://api.nox-xtreme.com/thumbnails/p ... ack_15.png

The front is closed with front fans drawing air from side slits of the front. There seems to be no filters or good place for one.

Fractal Define in my photo has a front door. There is front filter. With door closed the air flows from side slits just like in Hummer Nexus. The cooling improves, if the door is open (at slight cost of quietness.).

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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 13:43

Ah, cool (pun), that's what was meant when they said "magnetic". I already thought they confused magnetic and electrostatic, because I couldn't imagine how magnets attract dust. I mean other than from lying around :-)

The unfiltered intakes of the Nox aren't that optimal ... beginner's mistake :roll: But I can still stuff a cut out filter mat in the openings and fit the fans individually with filters.

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Re: New PC

Post by Gavrushka » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 14:58

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 23. Jul 21, 21:45
I'm pretty sure a dust filter will impede the airflow a fair bit less than a thick layer of dust all over your PC's internals. It's also easier, and less risky, to clean regularly. Personally I would always use filters where possible.
Prior to Christmas, I bought my first computer which came with magnetic dust filters, one on the top where the CPU radiator is, and a second at the front, sat on the inside of 2x240mm fans. - I can't begin to tell you how good they are, and just how easy to clean. - After seven months, the inside of my PC looks pristine, I mean not even one visible speck of dust, and all I have to do is remove and wipe down the two filters every few weeks, a job that takes a couple of minutes max.

Despite having a 3070, 3 internal drives and another expansion card on my (full size) MoBo, I see internal resting temperatures all-but identical to ambient. I do have a case maxed out with additional fans, but I'd never dream of having a case that wasn't clad in dust filters now.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

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Re: New PC

Post by Tamina » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 15:26

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 13:01
That's interesting. I know from architecture that it is the laminar flow that cools pretty effectively by removing heat, while turbulent flow can collect heat better from a surface ...
Real laminar flow is insulating, terrible for heat transfer. I guess in architecture the goal is to exchange air in a room and not to cool furniture. That said, you will never ever reach laminar flow in a PC case. It is hard enough to create in dedicated wind tunnels that were built just for this :)

Maybe intake fans behind a filter are bad because they are literally sucking the dust through the filters, with all their force. I wonder if it is better to have bulged filters with a bigger surface area to compensate for that, while at the same time mitigating friction at the filters.
Last edited by Tamina on Sat, 24. Jul 21, 16:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New PC

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 16:02

I find that doing a bit more frequent housework (eg vacuuming and dusting) in the room where the PC is does absolute wonders for reducing the numbers of dust bunnies both inside and outside the PC. Not eating at the PC and even not scratching your head too much while working (difficult with some apps, I know) is great for that too! (Close proximity of hairy pets to computers is probably a bad idea too.) :D
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