New PC

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Geoman
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New PC

Post by Geoman » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 10:38

Since my old PC is shutting down abnormally in every game (luckily I can still work) I think it is end of life and need a new one.

I've been looking at some pre-built PC's and stumbled upon this confiugration:


AMD Ryzen 7 PRO Renoir
Clock 3,6 GHz
Turbo 4,4 GHz
Cachegeheugen 12 MB

32MB DDR 4 3200HZ

RTX2060 Super

I also have found a similar setup with a Intel I7-10700 with 16MB DDR 4.

Since I don't know the Ryzen 7 PRO series i'm curious how it performs compared to the I7-10700 and if it is a good buy.

BTW I'm coming from an:
I7-990X Black edition from 2011 or 2012 with an GTX1060

Gavrushka
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Re: New PC

Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:04

I can tell you the I7 10700K is absolutely superb. (I had a new PC delivered 2 days ago.)

There's a great site for comparing components and builds, userbenchmarks, and it'll let you see how the Ryzen compares against the I7, and likewise for different graphic cards and RAM modules.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

Geoman
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Re: New PC

Post by Geoman » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:43

Thanks for that link. It is not the 10700K version though. The benchmark score for the 10700 is also (substantially) higher compared to the Ryzen (though the non boost clock is substantially lower).

Will go for the I7 then.

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Tamina
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Re: New PC

Post by Tamina » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:44

Gavrushka wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:04
I can tell you the I7 10700K is absolutely superb. (I had a new PC delivered 2 days ago.)

There's a great site for comparing components and builds, userbenchmarks, and it'll let you see how the Ryzen compares against the I7, and likewise for different graphic cards and RAM modules.
I don't know much about PCs but what I do know is UserBenchmark being very unreputable, highly favouring Intel CPUs.

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Gavrushka
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Re: New PC

Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:50

Tamina wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:44
Gavrushka wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:04
I can tell you the I7 10700K is absolutely superb. (I had a new PC delivered 2 days ago.)

There's a great site for comparing components and builds, userbenchmarks, and it'll let you see how the Ryzen compares against the I7, and likewise for different graphic cards and RAM modules.
I don't know much about PCs but what I do know is UserBenchmark being very unreputable, highly favouring Intel CPUs.
I'd thought the ratings were based on the software download that tests each system - It's how I tested my previous and current PC. - The same test is applied to each system, so I'm unsure how it could be faked. There is a 'user rating' column, but you're suggesting the technical data is fudged? I'll follow your link in due course, but it does seem like an extraordinary accusation to make. - When making my decision on a system, incidentally, I noted the Ryzen 5900x? was marginally faster than the I7 10700K according to userbenchmarks.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

Gavrushka
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Re: New PC

Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:55

Geoman wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:43
Thanks for that link. It is not the 10700K version though. The benchmark score for the 10700 is also (substantially) higher compared to the Ryzen (though the non boost clock is substantially lower).

Will go for the I7 then.

The only reason I stick with Intel is due to a bad experience with AMD (an X4 Athlon) which is the only processor which has failed on me. I saw the 10700, and noted it was very, very close to the K, but I imagine it'll run cooler, so that'll be a bonus too. If it's for X4, I can tell you it runs it superbly. :)
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

pjknibbs
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Re: New PC

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 12:57

Geoman wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 11:43
Thanks for that link. It is not the 10700K version though. The benchmark score for the 10700 is also (substantially) higher compared to the Ryzen (though the non boost clock is substantially lower).

Will go for the I7 then.
What exact Ryzen chip are we talking about here? I just went to cpu.userbenchmark.com and compared the base i7-10700 with the Ryzen 7 3700X, which is the closest match I can find based on the clock speeds you mentioned, and I'm only seeing the 10700 being 6% higher than the Ryzen--a lot of which is coming from improved memory bandwidth, because the other scores are all only 4% higher. I wouldn't call a 6% difference "substantial". If I compare like with like (because the 10700 is pretty high up in Intel's range) and use a 5800X then the Ryzen is around 10% faster.

jlehtone
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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 13:03

Seeking "Renoir" yields: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/am ... oir-review
"Ryzen 7 Pro-4750G OEM APU"
* OEM, so not available to "I'll pick my parts" shopper, and hence less entries in the benchmark sites
* APU, includes integrated GPU (like the Intel) but will not use it due to the discrete GPU card

At this moment AMD Zen 3 (Ryzen 5000 series) is latest and greatest (if you can find it from a shop).
The 4750G is a AMD Zen 2 based chip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_2


There is more to PC than just CPU, GPU, and RAM. What (disk) media do those offers have?

That i7-990X (1st Gen. Core) was beefy at its time, but GTX 1060 is from 2018.
Therefore, you have not only invested once, but modified later too.
How much do those pre-builts support later add-on upgrades?

Gavrushka
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Re: New PC

Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 13:17

pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 12:57
If I compare like with like (because the 10700 is pretty high up in Intel's range) and use a 5800X then the Ryzen is around 10% faster.
The 5800x benchmarks as faster than the I7 10700K, and so close to the I9, I doubt you'd notice the performance difference.

*IF* I'd made a logical rather than an emotive decision, I'd have gone for the 5800x, without a doubt. And I believe it's manufactured using far, far newer technology regarding density of components, yes? Umm lithography?
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

burger1
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Re: New PC

Post by burger1 » Thu, 10. Dec 20, 15:26

If your pc is shutting down are:

the temperatures ok? cpu, gpu, case temperature? cpu has a 130w tdp might need a lot of cooling.

anything in event view viewer or view reliability report. Press windows key and type in event viewer.

run windows memory diagnostic test? press windows key and type in memory then click on windows memory diagnostic test. Run a hard drive test also.

might be your power supply?

remove all over clocks and see if it still shuts down?

you could technically prevent the pc from shutting down depending on the reason. Not sure it's a good idea.

all your connectors connected ok?

windows reinstall and reset bios?

Geoman
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Re: New PC

Post by Geoman » Fri, 11. Dec 20, 08:33

jlehtone wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 13:03
Seeking "Renoir" yields: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/am ... oir-review
"Ryzen 7 Pro-4750G OEM APU"
* OEM, so not available to "I'll pick my parts" shopper, and hence less entries in the benchmark sites
* APU, includes integrated GPU (like the Intel) but will not use it due to the discrete GPU card

At this moment AMD Zen 3 (Ryzen 5000 series) is latest and greatest (if you can find it from a shop).
The 4750G is a AMD Zen 2 based chip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_2


There is more to PC than just CPU, GPU, and RAM. What (disk) media do those offers have?

That i7-990X (1st Gen. Core) was beefy at its time, but GTX 1060 is from 2018.
Therefore, you have not only invested once, but modified later too.
How much do those pre-builts support later add-on upgrades?
Both coming with NVME 500Gb + 1TB normal disk so no difference there. Yes I only upgraded the graphics card in the past. There was no need to update the CPU (still It ran X4 reasonbly well). In pre-builts I expect to upgrade my graphics card max. once and then the PC is probably end of life.

Geoman
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Re: New PC

Post by Geoman » Fri, 11. Dec 20, 08:45

burger1 wrote:
Thu, 10. Dec 20, 15:26
If your pc is shutting down are:

the temperatures ok? cpu, gpu, case temperature? cpu has a 130w tdp might need a lot of cooling.

anything in event view viewer or view reliability report. Press windows key and type in event viewer.

run windows memory diagnostic test? press windows key and type in memory then click on windows memory diagnostic test. Run a hard drive test also.

might be your power supply?

remove all over clocks and see if it still shuts down?

you could technically prevent the pc from shutting down depending on the reason. Not sure it's a good idea.

all your connectors connected ok?

windows reinstall and reset bios?
Yes it needs quite a bit of cooling (though it was running with 2 580's in SLI until I switched to the GTX1060 which generated a lot more heat in the case) and it has been running fine for almost a decade. I ran a night long memtest and hd-tests (no errors). Probably it is either the motherboard or the power suply (no overclocks running).
I thought it might be my CPU cooling, and increased the base fanspeed of the BIOS to have some extra cooling, though that didn't solve the problem. Although it could be that the thermal paste is gone, but I can't pin it down to a certain CPU temp. Since I am not that big of a troubleshooter (ouside of changing a graphics card and using a air spray to cleam) and since it is a 9 year old PC with only 1 upgrade in the meantime (2018), i'm not that surprised that something is breaking down (and i've had value for my money).

BaronVerde
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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 20:48

Now that prices come down a bit, I am thinking of a new PC. I would like to build it myself, though I haven't done that before. Are there PC builders among you guys here whom I could tap, because there is a lot of info around but it is hard to get the real important stuff between all the ads and more or less meaningful how-tos :-)

My current machine is an I7 6700, 16GB ram, enough harddisks, GTX 970. I run Linux.

Here's what I am aiming at: Board B550 AMD AM4, Processor AMD Ryzen 7 3800x or 5800x, 32GB DDR4, 2 PCIe 3.0 SSDs, a small one for OS and swap, a larger one for data. Graphics AMD RX6800XT later, they're still very rare and expensive.

Do you guys know or can give me recommendations:
Do I need an independent processor cooler (air, not water) ?
I will not overclock, that I can say, but summer temperatures here can easily go beyond 30°C.
Do I need some sort of plasma errr thermal conductor paste or does it come with the processor/cooler ?
What's a good memory configuration (2*16, 4*8 ?) and speed ? The board's specification has a long list. How about DDR4 3600Mhz DIMMS ? They are all just one connector type, right ?
Power supply 750 Watts (processor is 135 I think, graphics card ~300 Watts, plus a little something for the rest) or better 1kW ?

What about screws, cables, do they usually come with the parts ?

Case and fans (I would prefer without any lights and as quiet as possible) I haven't yet any idea, same with the SSDs ... they are the next step.

Thanls for any hints and tips :-)

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jlehtone
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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:20

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 20:48
Do I need an independent processor cooler (air, not water) ?
Do I need some sort of plasma errr thermal conductor paste or does it come with the processor/cooler ?

What about screws, cables, do they usually come with the parts ?

Case and fans (I would prefer without any lights and as quiet as possible) I haven't yet any idea
3800x looks to include a cooler, 5800x does not. How effective the cooler is is connected to how large and/or loud it is. Cooler has to fit into the case too.

There is usually thermal conductor in the cooler's package. Presumably of type that cooler's maker considers good enough.

Couple SATA cables is usually included in motherboard's package. With M.2 connected storage there is no need for cables.

PSU has set of power cables. The case has the screws, although some devices might have their own. Cases usually include some fans.

Really quiet cases have weaker cooling. These days the cases with side window are prevalent; useless for us, who prefer not to see lights. All cases do not have window.

The latest three builds I had in Fractal Design's cases. There are cheaper cases though.
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pjknibbs
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Re: New PC

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:54

Not sure what the benefit is of having two drives if they're both SSDs, TBH...I usually have a reasonable sized one as my main system drive (it's a 1Tb M.2 unit in this PC) and use spinning rust for *really* big stuff, because it's cheaper. If I was going to spec up a machine with two SSDs then I'd rather just get one that was the same capacity as the other two put together, makes things simpler and SSDs don't fragment like hard drives do so it's not a problem to have everything on one.

Regarding the RAM question: yes, DDR4 SDRAM will all be pretty much the same. You should always go for the fastest memory kit you can afford, especially with Ryzen CPUs--use cheap slow RAM and you'll really be affecting your system's performance. Memory config I would suggest using 2 DIMMs that together provide the capacity you want (e.g. 2*16) so you get the benefits of dual channel while leaving room for future expansion (most motherboards have 4 DIMM slots), although if you do that, be sure to install the memory in the correct slots--for dual channel operation you'd usually want them in slots 1 and 3, so they shouldn't be next to each other.

Coolers: best to check when you buy what you're getting. Lower end coolers will often have a pad of thermal material on the bottom which is designed to provide heat transfer between the CPU and the cooler, but "enthusiast" ones likely won't because they'll be expecting you to get your own paste and apply it yourself.

Regarding screws and other fittings: any halfway decent PC case should come with all of those that you're likely to need for that side of things. The motherboard itself will come with more.

CBJ
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Re: New PC

Post by CBJ » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:59

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 20:48
Do I need an independent processor cooler (air, not water) ?
Personally I'd say yes, but don't write off liquid cooling too quickly. There are various self-contained liquid cooling solutions for CPUs these days, which don't require complicated specialist fitting knowledge, and aren't horrendously expensive. As well as giving good cooling for your CPU, they are also much smaller than the equivalent air cooling solutions, which makes everything from airflow to access inside the case easier. As a bonus they are often quieter too. Decent examples, in my experience, are the H80 and H100 from Corsair. And yes, you'll need to make sure you have thermal paste, even if your cooling solution comes with it, as you may need it if you end up having to re-seat things.

BaronVerde
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Re: New PC

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09

Wow, that's alot of reaction in a short time, thank you :-). Will go through everything, give me some time.

Edit:
pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 21:54
Not sure what the benefit is of having two drives if they're both SSDs, TBH...I usually have a reasonable sized one as my main system drive (it's a 1Tb M.2 unit in this PC) and use spinning rust for *really* big stuff, because it's cheaper. If I was going to spec up a machine with two SSDs then I'd rather just get one that was the same capacity as the other two put together, makes things simpler and SSDs don't fragment like hard drives do so it's not a problem to have everything on one.
Yeah, fragmentation is a file system thing, it is not an issue for me. If it was, there are a variety of file systems with theor respective settings and tools to choose from. SSDs additionally do their own internal logic indepently from the file system, I believe. Am not an expert :-)

For me, the rationale of dividing up system and data stuff is I can switch to another flavour of the OS any time (which I did in the beginning, less so lately), or when I installed too much stuff and lost somewhat control and overview, I can just erase the system and install a new one without even touching data. So I can just be sure that even if I partition the system drive anew, for instance to change swap size, use another more modern file system, home will not be affected. There's also a "historic" aspect to it. In the beginning I had a single system drive and a raid stack for data. I got away from that because I don't really need it (when was the last time a hard drives went on permanent strike ?) and it is configuration overhead one has to keep in mind.

But I plan to stick with the two drive setup, just to be an the more flexible side. And it is not a big cost factor ...

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exogenesis
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Re: New PC

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 01:20

Guess a question to define a new PC specification might be, what do you expect from the upgrade.

If it's for the fun of it & 'want' then spend as much as you can justify,
otherwise best not to expect too much, to not get disappointed.

i.e. assuming you've got a working i7-6700, how much 'faster' are you wishing for example a new £$3000 i7-11700 / RTX-3080ti system to be ?

Problem is in the last 10 years CPU clock freq. hasn't really gone up much
(Moore's-law has gone on holiday, until optical/quantum CPUs arrive)
and realistically you may 'only' get an overall processing speed factor of 2 (if you're lucky).

Memory speeds have increased, but not so much you'd see an amazingly great effect.

General design e.g caching & MB bus speeds etc contribute to more fluidity & responsiveness,
but it all just seems to add up to this approx. x2 performance.

GPUs are a different story, muchly speed gains, *if* you're playing GPU intensive games,
otherwise not so important - although a GTX-970 could be upgraded easily to something more oomphy.

Personally I've stuck with upgrading my i7-2700K for the last 10 years,
but will occasionally got to the 9900K/RTX-2070 laptop to get a somewhat more fluid X4 playing experience.
Gone are the years when I used to upgrade every 2 years, when there was a x4 performance increase available.

On the topic of screws/cables - if you go for self-build from seperate boxes of MB/case/etc,
you'll be hoovering up the excess screws from the carpet & you'll have boxes of spare cables for years :)

pjknibbs
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Re: New PC

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 08:27

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09
Yeah, fragmentation is a file system thing, it is not an issue for me. If it was, there are a variety of file systems with theor respective settings and tools to choose from. SSDs additionally do their own internal logic indepently from the file system, I believe. Am not an expert :-)
The reason I said SSDs don't really suffer from fragmentation is because there isn't any seek time with an SSD--it takes the same amount of time for one to locate the next piece of data at the far end of the drive as it does if said data is the very next block, so even if a file is split into hundreds of fragments it won't take the SSD any longer to read it all.

jlehtone
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Re: New PC

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 11. Jul 21, 10:28

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 10. Jul 21, 22:09
For me, the rationale of dividing up system and data stuff is I can switch to another flavour of the OS any time, or when I installed too much stuff and lost somewhat control and overview, I can just erase the system and install a new one without even touching data.
That is a very good strategy.

The way I see it, there are three datasets: (A) system files, (B) configuration, and (C) user data. The A can be recreated at any time. The C is valuable and must have backups. The B is applied to A; you have copy "outside" that you apply from into fresh A. (Ansible, Chef, Puppet, etc tools make the "apply" easier. Some of them work with OS X and Windows too.)

For a long time I've left part of disk unallocated. One reason was to leave more blocks for the SSD wear leveling to play with. Another, the main reason is to have space for allocating the "next /" when the time comes.

With MBR that (creating many partitions) was not trivial, but with GPT there is plenty of room in the table. The other, more flexible option is LVM.

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$ lsblk
NAME         MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT
nvme0n1      259:3    0 745.2G  0 disk  
├─nvme0n1p1  259:4    0   200M  0 part  /boot/efi
├─nvme0n1p2  259:5    0   500M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p3  259:6    0    16G  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p4  259:7    0     4G  0 part  [SWAP]
├─nvme0n1p5  259:8    0   180G  0 part  /home
├─nvme0n1p6  259:9    0    16M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p7  259:10   0 519.5G  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p8  259:11   0   532M  0 part  
├─nvme0n1p9  259:12   0     1G  0 part  /boot
└─nvme0n1p10 259:13   0    20G  0 part  /
In that list the nvme0n1p3 is the / of previous OS. I could still access it (automounter), but essentially it is already expendable.

The user data is in /home. Not on physically separate media, but still clearly distinct from the OS files.

I have dual boot menu ... in UEFI.

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