Coronavirus: COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 9. Aug 21, 23:04

Am I the only one who feels strange seeing people complaining about mask when you have plenty of politicians, left, right nad center, who only wear mask in front of cameras?
Like that posin in G7 when they just put masks for the photo and then immediately went back to no mask at all.

Or politicians and celebrities berating people for not adhering to lockdown, but the casually throwing a huge birthday party (Obama wasn't first in that manner)?
As far as I know, the only person who might be punished for it, would be California governor, but according to polls, he has a fair chance to survive the recall.

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 9. Aug 21, 23:50

Dunno. Probably. I doubt there's many here that are obsessed enough with politicians that aren't in their country to watch them when they're not on camera.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Incubi » Tue, 10. Aug 21, 03:55

Alan Phipps wrote:
Mon, 9. Aug 21, 09:04
There is a very profound lesson in Incubi's post above about the harm and loss directly caused by the misinformation going around about Covid and vaccines. Time to prevaricate really is not available.

The moral of that story is to get your information from reputable sources, cross-check it yourself with other reputable sources if necessary, and speak to your doctor or other healthcare provider if still in doubt. Time is of the essence in protecting yourself, your family and the general community; the disease will find chinks in any non-clinical isolation routines (and even in the clinical ones considering that my brother contracted his Covid while in hospital).

I am not at all saying that there is absolutely no possibility of potential longer term effects from vaccines, but we already know about longer and shorter term effects from catching Covid.
That. The vast amount of misinformation is very dangerous. I wasn't trying to avoid a vaccine, I was trying to see when and if it was safe to take it. And all the misinformation made that very difficult to do. Combined with being used to a pattern of caution that kept me and my family safe for over a year and a half, I figured I had time to wait and see. So that is where my responsibility comes in.

The one bit of information that held me back for the last month was finding the truth behind the blood clotting. Apparently the pfizer does not have this issue. But I did not find that out until I was infected. It really should not be this hard to find real information. I am an over weight and fifty years old so a blood clotting side effect was of a notable concern. I am embarrassed to say I did just find it in the CDC and I thought I was thorough about reading it. Also on me even it was layers deep in the site. But I am not letting bs polarity politics and misleading media off the hook.

All that said my children all seem to be ok with two of them already patched up and just waiting the quarantine out. I am in a lot of pain but my fever is gone and my breathing is normal. As soon as I am clear I am getting us all the pfizer

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 15:04

The unvaccinated (for whatever reason) are a danger not only for themselves but also for others, including vaccinated, and they are the reason why the virus ist still spreading and evolving. Any hesitation, if it is other than for a lack of vaccine, is unreasonable. Apart from misinformation, there is no data available that justifies it, after 100s of millions of responsible people have been vaccinated and tons of studies are out there. Clotting isn't an excuse any more, it has never really been one not get vaccinated. Never ! Its chance is magnitudes lower than dying from covid, even more so since people are informed of the symptoms.

People find excuses because of something they heard somewhere about adverse effects and hesitate to vaccinate themselves, even keep their family from doing so, against all science and reason, until they catch COVID and spread it further inside the own family and possibly outside, giving the virus more opportunities. That is not responsible behaviour.

Get vaccinated you unvaccinated, you're endangering me !
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Tamina » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 15:43

Incubi wrote:
Tue, 10. Aug 21, 03:55
The one bit of information that held me back for the last month was finding the truth behind the blood clotting. Apparently the pfizer does not have this issue. But I did not find that out until I was infected. It really should not be this hard to find real information.
Trying to find a way from within a forest is more difficult than looking at it from the outside. Finding up-to-date information is super difficult while they are happening. There is no shame in that.
Incubi wrote:
Tue, 10. Aug 21, 03:55
But I am not letting bs polarity politics and misleading media off the hook.
Yes. It is not just Fake News that make it harder, but also Yellow Papers and even reputable News outlets rather tend to got for sensationalism than journalism. I.e. I remember when media managed to make it a crisis when two people, who had allergic reactions to other vaccines before, got an allergic reaction. Even though, the approval papers specifically included side effects like allergic reactions, and how those numbers were nothing out of the ordinary.
Last edited by Tamina on Wed, 11. Aug 21, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 15:52

Tamina wrote:
Wed, 11. Aug 21, 15:43
Trying to find a way from within a forest is more difficult then looking at it from the outside. Finding up-to-date information is super difficult while they are happening. There is no shame in that.
If that refers to clotting, it was actually trivially simple to disinguish between the real stuff and the bogus. The reasons for clotting were isolated long ago, the symptoms described to avoid further cases, and while millions died and still die of COVID, only very few cases of clotting were reported. By now, using clotting as anexcuse not to get vaccinated is just that, an excuse.

I repeat: millions died and die of COVID, and only isolated clotting cases were reported. Idk, someone can look that up, i'd be surprised if these are more than 1.000 worldwide. Am not sure if it is still a thing at all. Only official data acceptable ;-)

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Tamina » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:04

Well, lets say it like that: You can always ask your doctor who can most probably give a more profound and personalized answer according to your health status. Gathering information by yourself isn't even remotely comparable to that.

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Und wenn ein Forenbösewicht, was Ungezogenes spricht, dann hol' ich meinen Kaktus und der sticht sticht sticht.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:18

Tamina wrote:
Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:04
Well, lets say it like that: You can always ask your doctor who can most probably give a more profound and personalized answer according to your health status. Gathering information by yourself isn't even remotely comparable to that.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:35

I assume that was meant ironically becaus it is unsubstantial and without meaning for the case at hand.

Since we're discussing, I find this a nice example that I sum up as follows: someone fell for FUD (isolated clotting cases blown up to an ominous danger) and rejected to take a vaccine right away when it was available, while people around them were dying of COVID (at that time several hundred thousands in their country, if it is USA, ~4.3 millions officially reported worldwide until now). In itself not a reasonable decision given the ratios and dangers involved. But it gets worse, they hasitate until they catch the virus, spreading it inside the family and possibly probably on to others when outside when in contact with others. And still, they postpone a vaccination, making it a dependecy of a certain vaccine and actual personal health. Ok, that may be a case of consulting a doctor, but I would be pretty embarrassed if I had to admit such imo unresponsible behaviour.

Btw., I have two medical doctors (daughter and her mother) and two pharmcists (sister and mother) in the direct family. And yes, we do talk. And one of them sadly is an antivaxxer and conspiracy theorist and there's nothing we can do, no words will soothe her, no prayer remove her ... :-/
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:40

@ BaronVerde: Just pointing out that unless you have had her treat you for your general illnesses, check-ups and tests, and that she holds all your medical records, then your relative is not really the doctor that you should be listening to anyway. Still, I digress.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 16:51

@AlanPhipps: I don't understand what you mean. I've personally last seen a doctor (edit I man for repairs, other than family members which I see more frequently but don't consult because family ;-)) 3 years ago when a wisdom tooth had to go, before that, I don't remember, ah, yes, that was in 2002 when I crashed with a paraglider and had a part to replace and some other surgery... derp that I am.

And I don't need to speak with a doctor to get information about my personal risk, which I know better and they had to ask from me. Anyway they vaccinate without questioning anybody here since the risks involved are publicly known. For almost everyone, not getting vaccinated is the higher risk for personal health and potantially life than getting the shot(s). Risks coming from society and others (polotical decisions, for instance, or antivaxxers, or just unvaccinated in general) I can easily extract from publications and minimize or lower with my behaviour. But only if I can rely on others to show some respnsibility, like not actively spreadind a potantially deadly virus. And I really find it difficult to see that imo fundamentally human aspect in the above example.

Edit: The unvaccinated are a danger to society, and even to the vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated, for whatever reason, is putting people at risk. There are "breakthrough cases", that even vaccinated can catch COVID, specifically new variants, and that because the virus is still spreading. While it is banal to state that vaccines don't offer 100% protecteion, voices emerge (unpublished) that even the vaccinated shouldn't press their luck too hard, and all because of a still spreading and mutating virus, enabled by the unvaccinated.

Two exemplary links:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 17:23

Given the choice of listening to strangers from a gaming forum vs listening to their licensed medical care providers, I would sincerely hope the choice made is the latter. I'd be pretty embarrassed to admit that I left my health care decisions up to random people from the internet, but that's just me.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 17:34

If that was aimed at me, I think I deserve more than blabla. Where exactly do my statements differ from which "licensed medical care provider" ?

I've provided links to underlay the (btw. not mine) statement that unvaccinated spread the virus not only among themselves but also back to the vaccinated. What do you think is wrong with that, and why ?

Come on, let's be specific, so we can discuss with an outcome.

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 17:40

Sorry, I don't divulge my or my children's medical history to strangers. That's privileged information that you have no right to or that I'm under any obligation to provide, especially in this forum.

And to be clear, it doesn't matter if your advice precisely aligns with my doctor or not. The very fact that you are not my doctor means that I should not listen to you, period.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by CBJ » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 17:46

If his advice is precisely to consult your doctor, that surely amounts to the same thing. And I have no idea where you got the idea that he was asking for personal medical details.

Anyway, once again, let's stop this personal bickering. There are more important things at stake.

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 17:56

@vertogo7 I wasn't referring to you personally, no need to get angry. The case was someobody postpones a vaccination against public advice, until it was too late, and yet still they postpone.

Here, the nurses that do the vaccinations don't ask, and there has not been a single case of any illness whatever from vaccinations, but 11 people have died so far, 4 of them during the current wave, 1 of them (an 87 year old lady) fully vaccinated. The rest is currently what has been dubbed "pandemic of the unvaccinated". What I say is, and I repeat: unvaccinated spread the virus mostly among themselves, but also back to the vaccinated. That makes their behaviour increasingly irresponsible. Are there any specific objections against that ? Bring 'em on :-)

I never said "don't ask a doctor", all I do is reiterate public and published knowledge. If you do actually have a condition that prohibits vaccination, than that is a completely different case and by all means, you must ask your doctor, I am in no position to question this and I don't !

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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 18:28

My point is that no one should follow medical advice because "so and so said I should". Your physicians should always ALWAYS be consulted for anything that impacts your health. That's their job, to provide the best possible information as it relates to you and the condition of your body and recommend a course of action. They're the ones that understand your health and are in the best possible position to determine if there's any risks to your health. Even if their recommendations match some rando from the internet, rando from the internet is not your doctor, if they're even a medical practitioner at all, and your doctor is the one that should be making that call.

Do I wanna see people vaccinated? Absolutely. But I also am not gonna shove that down people's throats. Why? I'm not a doctor, much less their doctor. I'll say "go talk to your doctor about getting vaccinated" and that's all I'll say.

Chances are, however, these hillbillies haven't even spoken to their doctor. Demon sperm doctor told the orange one a year ago that they didn't need to be vaccinated so they made their mind up then. Jewish space laser congressperson met with the hillbillies in Alabama a day or two ago and practically told them to shoot health care workers that come knock on their door. If these are the people you're trying to reach, you're wasting your time.

Now, if you wanna talk about isolating them from the rest of us, that's a discussion I'll be all for having.
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 19:24

A, we're not that far apart :-) Yep, when people endanger their fellows, don't see reason, shield themselves with excuses or demand personal freedom on the expense of that of other's, should they be pushed by society ? If so, how gentle shall the push be ?

This is heftily discussed, partly with religious vigour.

In my opinion, in a first step they should be pushed, not necessarily be forced. For instance excluded from certain events, pay more into some public health fund or personal health insurance, be tagged and traced so that in case of new infections people can be warned, or isolated when in contact. I mean, if they have cellphones they can be traced anyway, with varying accuracy, so where's the problem ? The unvaccinated do cause bodily (they are more infectuous) and mental (I'm quite personally missing my good night beer down in the harbour bar since quite some time now, and that's a pain in the neck and no mistake) damage and they restrict the freedom of others (mine) and cause deaths (the elder lady here that died from an outbreak despite being vaccinated and had hoped to live some more).

I might be a little apodictic, but really, and that's an opinion, who's not vaccinated by now either didn't get the right turn intellectually or has no access to vaccines, the latter being more excusable than the first. </opinion>

You may all beat me up now for that insolence :-)
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by felter » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 19:28

So I was looking at the numbers for the UK today, and it says 104 deaths and -26 people in hospital then I thought the people in hospital number is a little bit misleading, it looks good but when you think on it, those 104 dead are no longer in hospital, the actual number would be 78 new patients in hospital. For it to really be good, the number of deaths has to be lower than the number of people in hospital. Just a random thought on how things aren't always what they may appear.

They are also saying that 75% of the UK population has had their second jab, who is this 25%, it can't be many adults as most under 17 haven't been jabbed at all so when you remove them from the number it goes down quite a bit and if the numbers are pretty low how come so many are getting infected, the numbers just don't add up. :gruebel:
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Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Wed, 11. Aug 21, 19:39

There are 25 health workers here who have rejected the vaccine. They will be put in positions where they pose the least danger, to their patients and colleagues as well as to themselves. So, in this case, society and the specific environment can handle the numbers.

The hospital chief is cited with:
We know that it does not prevent infection 100%, but it does prevent future complications. It is unacceptable that a person who is committed to science should voluntarily refuse vaccination, causing harm not only to themselves but also to the people they serve.
"it" meaning putting them where they cause least damage.

Source:
https://eltime.es/isla-bonita/34845-coe ... ibles.html
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