Random News not worthy of own thread

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matthewfarmery
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by matthewfarmery » Fri, 31. Mar 23, 18:06

Observe wrote:
Fri, 31. Mar 23, 17:55
matthewfarmery wrote:
Fri, 31. Mar 23, 16:48
The other thing is, will Trump get bail?
I"m guessing Trump will get bail. After all, he is constantly under the watch of Federal agents (Secret Service), so his ability to escape them and go on the run is unlikely.

Considering this circus is likely to persist for a long time, I suppose it might be a good idea to start a new thread, or revive the old Trump thread so that this one doesn't get taken over by Trump.
I would agree that a new Trump thread should be created, I doubt the old thread will be allowed, but a new one should be done.
=

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Chips
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Chips » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 19:29

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65299127
Protests erupted in Kansas City, Missouri, over the weekend after a homeowner shot a black teenager twice who rang their doorbell by mistake.

Ralph Yarl, 16, was trying to pick up his brothers from a friend's house on 13 April, but went to the wrong address.

The suspect shot Mr Yarl through his door.
No wonder paperboys/girls throw papers at the doors instead of pushing it through like in the UK; you'd run the risk of having a face full of lead. Joking aside, if he isn't found guilty and jailed (and I do mean the home owner), then...

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Gavrushka » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 20:08

Chips wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 19:29
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65299127
Protests erupted in Kansas City, Missouri, over the weekend after a homeowner shot a black teenager twice who rang their doorbell by mistake.

Ralph Yarl, 16, was trying to pick up his brothers from a friend's house on 13 April, but went to the wrong address.

The suspect shot Mr Yarl through his door.
No wonder paperboys/girls throw papers at the doors instead of pushing it through like in the UK; you'd run the risk of having a face full of lead. Joking aside, if he isn't found guilty and jailed (and I do mean the home owner), then...
Can you imagine that happening in any other developed country? There's precious little detail in the article, but to shoot someone through a closed door for no other reason than they rang your doorbell... and happened to be black.

The guy who fired the gun must surely be charged with attempted murder, but I guess his defence will be is 'but I'm white, your honour.' #BLM
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 20:49

Gavrushka wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 20:08
Can you imagine that happening in any other developed country?
There is plenty of nuts with knifes and axes that are as sudden and deadly.
Or nuts that will push you into running train/tram/bus.

Don't let the "developed country" label give you a false sense of security.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Chips » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 21:47

^^ good point worth making; it could just be that freak 1 in 10,000,000 nut job. He shot a kid through his door instead of running out and shooting a dozen on the sidewalk a week later.

The crime, as with any crime involving guns, is awful - more so because it's even less comprehensible (literally HOW do you feel so insecure behind a locked door you shoot through it? At a CHILD) - but what matters more is, how this is dealt with.

The US previously has had instances whereby people have gotten away with shooting people dead under the least believable of circumstances (and sometimes later evidence prompts a huge U Turn due to the public's response, not the actual revelation of evidence, but how the public responded to it). The absolute nut jobs won't change, you'll always have them. But will the legal system do justice or is this going to be one of those utterly baffling "a mans home..."

e.g. if you honestly believe your life is at risk, you can defend yourself in most nations. Defending property with lethal force is entirely questionable, it's not a capital punishment offence so you shouldn't be entitled to kill unless your life is at risk. You shouldn't be placing yourself in a situation where your option is to kill because you believed you made your life at risk by doing so (I understand the idea of defending property, but at the same time there has to be proportional balance -- but I think US has a "stand your ground" type defence, which exonerates killing people). Being behind a door and killing someone fulfils neither criteria in my opinion... but it's just my opinion, and how the law views it over there is one of those moments where I've no idea as I can't understand how they do things. Another example is the famous case of the Police shooting a black man who ran away when they tried to stop him; the reason they'd been called? A counterfeit $20 note. Apparently a counterfeit $20 note required capital punishment by the Police, instead of just going "aww shucks... he's done a runner".
Last edited by Chips on Mon, 17. Apr 23, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 21:55

...also, Europe is good example - in absence of guns, cars and truck are prefereble tools for mass casualty events.

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Chips
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Chips » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 21:59

If you've a link to any article whereby a child rang a doorbell and the home owner from behind the door drove over them with a truck, be my guest... meaning you've gone off on an odd tangent. What are you responding to?

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Gavrushka » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:02

What I really was getting at was that how it seems 'a thing' in the US for a white guy to perceive a black guy as a threat for no other reason other than they're black, and then kill them or attempt to do so. - It's the gun that seems to be used in all the instances I've heard of, but I accept it is still a rarity. Maybe it does happen in Europe and elsewhere, and it's just the news sources I watch don't report them, but that feels unlikely. - The attacks in the US, from what I understand, are not from known criminals, but from white people perceiving a threat that wasn't there.

Anyhow, I'm taking this thread out of its lane, so I'll leave it here.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

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mr.WHO
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:08

My point is if there is a nut who want's you dead, guns or not, US or anwhere else, it's rather hard to stop them.

It's not even just the West.
I think I read somewhere that in China there is a plague of nuts that target grade schools as some form of rage against society.

Mental health and social coherence is in downward spiral globe wide.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Observe » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:39

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:08
Mental health and social coherence is in downward spiral globe wide.
Do you have any conjecture as to why that is? When did this spiral begin? Honest question.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by fiksal » Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:44

We can restart a gun debate thread, however I think Gavrushka's summary is best so far
Gavrushka wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:02
What I really was getting at was that how it seems 'a thing' in the US for a white guy to perceive a black guy as a threat for no other reason other than they're black, and then kill them or attempt to do so. - It's the gun that seems to be used in all the instances I've heard of, but I accept it is still a rarity. Maybe it does happen in Europe and elsewhere, and it's just the news sources I watch don't report them, but that feels unlikely. - The attacks in the US, from what I understand, are not from known criminals, but from white people perceiving a threat that wasn't there.

Anyhow, I'm taking this thread out of its lane, so I'll leave it here.
There are indeed two things that as far as I am aware are more unique to US than any other western country. Correct me if I am wrong.
- perceiving someone who is black as automatically dangerous, as in, immediate mortal danger
- having accesses and society's blessing to shoot first, since, you know, everyone is armed, and the first point

and add one more
- having a society that will chew over victim's behavior, mental health, which that same society actually doesnt care about (because socialism is bad), other country's issues before admitting it's the environment that's the problem. Then rinse and repeat.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 07:42

Observe wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:39
mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 17. Apr 23, 22:08
Mental health and social coherence is in downward spiral globe wide.
Do you have any conjecture as to why that is? When did this spiral begin? Honest question.
Different parts of the world have different timeline and causes - but in general, globe-wide trend it started with the stack of 3 different crisis coming together as perfect storm:
- World not fully coming out of after-effects of 2008 crisis (mainly hyper low rates and increased national debt)
- Financial issues due to COVID lockdowns, supply chain distruption and huge money supply dump raising inflation
- Further inflation rise, supply and energy chain distruption due to R-U War

Now figure out 10-20-30% of population in each country struggle financially or live from payroll to payroll - each one of above will put a strain on them, but now you have 3 together.
To be honest I'm rather suprised that the situation is not much worse given the circumstances.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 15:21


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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by clakclak » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 17:14

mr.WHO wrote:
Tue, 18. Apr 23, 15:21
The case looks very similar:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65307556
The difference is in the charges. In the case of Yarl the homeowner was charged with two felonies, assault in the first degree and armed criminal action, but not attempted murder. In the case of Gillis the homeowner was charged wit second degree murder.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 17:32

clakclak wrote:
Tue, 18. Apr 23, 17:14
The difference is in the charges. In the case of Yarl the homeowner was charged with two felonies, assault in the first degree and armed criminal action, but not attempted murder. In the case of Gillis the homeowner was charged wit second degree murder.
While I'm staunch defender of the right to self defense, guns included...
- shooting someone through the door
- without confirmation that someone is hostile
- with no immediate danger (coz well, the door)

I can't spot any nuisance that usually plague such cases - it's plain murder.


Still, the shooter is 84 years old, so with even one felony stick, he'll be in jail for the rest of his life.


With both cases, I think we'll have a running streak of door/driveway shootings incoming.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by alt3rn1ty » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 19:53

Wow!, coming from the UK I just cant imagine living in a country that allows the aged lethal weapons.

My mother at 94, has partial Dementia, she is totally paranoid, hates every neighbour she has had for the last ten years, is suspicious of anyone (even the carers who visit her cottage), and jumps out of her skin at the slightest thing ..
.. I'm trying to imagine her with a gun, she would have wiped out the neighbourhood by now, or broken a hip after the recoil threw her on the floor :lol:

Barking mad. I could see her shooting through the door, just very afraid and convincing herself there was evil outside, that could easily happen in her state of mind. I could also see her shooting the hell out of her cottage too, when she has a water infection (very often) she starts seeing people and things as if they are really there clear as day (hallucinations are a common thing with old people and water infections). She would be shooting the gun off everywhere trying to hit the latest monster/hoodlum/squad of evil cats she sees in the house.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by felter » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 20:04

Guns are not defensive, they do not protect you or stop you from being harmed, they are 100% offensive they have 2 jobs maiming and killing, if anything a gun has more of a chance of getting you shot and hurt than stopping it from happening, only idiots call guns defensive, and it needs to be stopped.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 21:39

@ felter: No, I wouldn't go that far. In the right and authorised hands a gun can be a deterrent to violence. For that function to work, you have to believe the holder firstly has a gun and secondly is a credible and reasoning person who is prepared to use potentially lethal force effectively, but only when they are caused to consider it essential.

Guns in the hands of children, the mentally unsuited, criminals, ego-trippers, the drink/substance impaired, and/or those without the training and responsibility are not any form of deterrent, they are just disasters waiting to happen.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Chips » Tue, 18. Apr 23, 23:06

felter wrote:
Tue, 18. Apr 23, 20:04
Guns are not defensive, they do not protect you or stop you from being harmed, they are 100% offensive they have 2 jobs maiming and killing, if anything a gun has more of a chance of getting you shot and hurt than stopping it from happening, only idiots call guns defensive, and it needs to be stopped.
In that case, what *is* defensive? A shield? You can use the edge of it to beat someone to death. A knife? Stabby McStabby.

The point that a gun is a weapon made to kill, fair enough, true. But you can't therefore just say it has zero defensive properties; of course it does - deterrence. *Using* the gun changes everything (as does intent to intimidate).

Example of defensive use of a gun. My Grandmother was in her 70's, burglars in the middle of the night - targeting the house specifically. She stood at the top of the stairs and called out "I have a gun, if you come upstairs I will shoot". She didn't have to shoot anyone as it turns out, they didn't venture upstairs. The Police told her, when they arrived, as long as she didn't shoot them in the back she'd have been okay with self defence...

No, they didn't mean she could shoot people and they'd get her off, they meant as long as she was defending herself.

Feel free to argue how that gun was not defensive in that situation. Also, it wasn't even loaded - she couldn't actually load it.

The gun has given a lunatic the empowerment and ability to kill someone in the original article. Thankfully, he didn't succeed. But since he'd made it to 84 without being arrested for shooting anyone who knocked on his door, it's not a stretch to guess there's a significant racial slant.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by felter » Wed, 19. Apr 23, 00:00

Explain how a gun stops another person from killing you, apart from you killing them first, they can't, they have never been able to and never will. You have a gun I have a gun, I shoot you how does your gun stop mines from killing you, it doesn't it can't as a gun is not defensive, it's a lie saying it is and as I said only stupid people think it is, let alone say they are.

What is defensive, a shield most definitely is and is a perfect example of defensive, for guns a bulletproof vest is defensive against them, a combat helmet is defensive, yes while they could be used offensively, but you don't buy a shield and think I will use that to attack anyone with an AR15, no, their main purpose is to stop harm, a gun does not stop harm, it only causes harm, unless you are lucky and when someone shoots you but hits the gun instead, but that is not what a gun is intended for that's just as I said before, luck, you would have to cover your whole body with guns for them to be used as a defence, and then they wouldn't be guns they would be a shield.

A gun as a Deterrence is also a lie and not a defence, if it was all those soldiers in Ukraine would still be alive or all those police that have been shot and killed over the years would still be alive, guns are not a deterrence you carry a gun as a deterrence you are just as well painting a target onto your back and saying shoot me first, in a gun fight. Example I'm going to shoot up a school, but it has an armed guard on the door, who do you think I'm going to shoot first, or the teacher is armed, when I enter that classroom who am I going to shoot first.

Saying a gun is defence is the largest scam that gun lobbyists and manufacturers have been using for decades just so they can sell and kill more. I mean seriously if guns were a deterrent there would be no gun crimes in America as there are more guns in civilian hands than there are people in the country, so don't even use the weak absurd excuse. As for your Grandmother you're lucky they didn't just shoot first to defend themselves from her, ironic or what, but again that is not defence, that was an offence on her part, as she threatened to shoot them, her gun wouldn't have stopped her from being shot if they had shot back.

There are 120 guns for every 100 American civilians. All these mass shooting in America, over 150 this year so far, where was all that gun deterrence for all of those? How did all those so-called defensive deterrents not stop those massacres. How many babies and children have to be shot and killed by guns before you realize that lie, that not one of them was protected by a defensive gun. You want to know what the best defence against guns actually is, not having any guns to start with.
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