Random News not worthy of own thread

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:37

Chips wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:54
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
And I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public.
Seriously? Out of interest, are you involved in software dev/engineering/coding etc? I can understand there are arguments for/against, but just straight up "I can't see how it could possibly be..." is odd unless I assume you're not in that particular field.
Not directly. Though I do work with those that are. The point I was trying to make, though, is that whether source code is under lock and key or available to the public doesn't mean one has flaws and the other doesn't. Linux has been open source since it's inception. It's had it's share of CVEs too.
Chips wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:54
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
I don't really care what vulnerabilities existed in a now 18 years old and out of service commercial OS. Windows has evolved and been patched as has Linux, OSX, Unix, on and on. You can preach open source all day long, but the corporate world runs on Windows. If open source platforms provided that much more security and stability, that wouldn't be the case and you would have 3rd party developers falling over themselves to write their products for the opensource platforms instead of Windows.
I'm a bit baffled.
Yeah, I can see why you would be. Missing some context. There was more to dude's post that was likely edited and removed before mine was submitted. Comments along the lines of source code for Windows XP being made public and ensuing predictions of doom.
Chips wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:54
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
I won't deny that open source things have their niche uses. Linux makes a great base for a firewall appliance, as a for instance. But I'd never replace my desktop OS with Linux. There may be some open source equivalencies that I could source to replace my day to day uses, but I find those EU experiences lack luster, to say the least, and lacking in features offered by commercial applications. Not to mention driver support for my hardware is often DIY - no thanks.

Maybe things will change, one day. But, some folks have been saying open source is the way to go for nearly 2 decades and doesn't seem like it's making much headway beyond the hobbyist crowd.
Are you just an end user (as in home user) in this instance?
Nope. I admin a bunch of servers, the majority of them are Windows, and provide end user support for specific things.
jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:09
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
You think MS or Apple or anyone else wouldn't fire any of their developers that get caught sneaking in bad code into their products?
They will. The only difference is that person looking fo a new job might be able keep the reason why "they left" secret, while public ban is public.
Maybe... but depending on the severity, the person could also be facing lawsuits and possibly criminal charges related to espionage. It's all circumstantial.
jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:09
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public.
It isn't. The "more eyes on the code" has diminishing returns, and all eyes do not peruse all code. Scary recent example, the "sudo" had a hole for almost a decade.
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
You can preach open source all day long, but the corporate world runs on Windows. If open source platforms provided that much more security and stability, that wouldn't be the case and you would have 3rd party developers falling over themselves to write their products for the opensource platforms instead of Windows.
VHS vs betamax. Even if open source had valid alternatives for everything, reschooling users would still remain huge "unnecessary" cost. "Cheaper to Keep Her"

RMS started preaching open source almost four decades ago.
True, but I look at Apple, for instance. They've been hard and heavy after k-12 schools since I was a kid. And what'd they do here in the last few years? They stopped producing servers. Outside of graphic design, they have almost no presence in the corporate world despite all of the Mac fans saying how great and wonderful their Macs are. We even have a handful of them deployed to end users, mostly doctors that want to carry around their Macbook as a status symbol, but anyone needing to do more than check their email or tool around on the web for work, they don't make the cut, mostly because there's so little 3rd party support and they can't run the applications needed.
BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:13
Oh dear, what have I done :-)

I deleted two points from my last post because of fear they might turn out to be devisive: that was google's suid sandbox and the disclosure of parts of windows xp code on the web a few years ago. I did it too late and it seems that offended people, sorry 'bout that. Watch your back out there, guys :-)
Not offended, fyi. Just giving my view.

I freely admit, I use some opensource things. There are some rather clever utilities I use to give me a better picture of certain situations that are open source and I run a TrueNAS server that I have integrated with my AD lab. But my desktop is and will most likely forever be Windows and the majority of my software is not opensource. I can't see that changing here or at work any time soon.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Chips » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:40

I realise I just posed questions without adding in anything more - so I was editing it in post-posting. It's revised with extras.

I'm surprised you don't think Open Source is gaining prevalence in the world - whether corporate or otherwise. It's debatable whether it's leading as it'd take too long to dig up endless figures to prove it is, however its farcical to claim it's hobbyist.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by red assassin » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:52

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
You think MS or Apple or anyone else wouldn't fire any of their developers that get caught sneaking in bad code into their products? I don't really see much distinction or reason to credit that action beyond an acknowledgement of that being the expectation. And I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public.

I don't really care what vulnerabilities existed in a now 18 years old and out of service commercial OS. Windows has evolved and been patched as has Linux, OSX, Unix, on and on. You can preach open source all day long, but the corporate world runs on Windows. If open source platforms provided that much more security and stability, that wouldn't be the case and you would have 3rd party developers falling over themselves to write their products for the opensource platforms instead of Windows.

I won't deny that open source things have their niche uses. Linux makes a great base for a firewall appliance, as a for instance. But I'd never replace my desktop OS with Linux. There may be some open source equivalencies that I could source to replace my day to day uses, but I find those EU experiences lack luster, to say the least, and lacking in features offered by commercial applications. Not to mention driver support for my hardware is often DIY - no thanks.

Maybe things will change, one day. But, some folks have been saying open source is the way to go for nearly 2 decades and doesn't seem like it's making much headway beyond the hobbyist crowd.
I think this is a baffling take for a security professional. For the record, there are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both models as far as security goes, and I don't think either is obviously correct. The problem with open source software is the bystander effect where everybody assumes that everybody else is checking the code they're using. The solution to this is the large corporate interests that rely on open source code ponying up and investing properly in it. The problem with closed source software is that it's difficult to perform security research and validate the security claims of the vendors, which means that only very large and well-resourced groups know about security vulnerabilities in said software. The solution to this is bug bounty programs and deliberately enabling - rather than fighting - security research.

This is not an argument that Microsoft aren't a major player, because they clearly are. But the idea that open source is "niche" is simply wrong. Some examples: Firstly, what's the most popular operating system in the world? If you said "Windows", nil points: it's Android, which is open source (though typically shipped with some proprietary components). In the corporate world, Windows is certainly dominant for desktop systems, but the picture is much muddier for the overall market. Windows ships more server OSes by unit than any commercial Linux vendor, but not by that much: MS take about 50% of the market, to Red Hat's 33%. But this doesn't count people who aren't paying for support contracts for open source software. In AWS, the world's largest cloud by a large margin, Linux accounts for about 90% of the market, while even on MS's own cloud Azure, Linux market share is over 50%. Windows accounts for about 25% of web servers. Meanwhile, networking hardware like routers are mostly Linux based these days, with vendors like Cisco moving from their own OS to proprietary components on Linux. It's also notable that most interaction with computers is now via a web browser (whether visibly or with something like Electron), and there are no major closed source web browsers left: with the death of EdgeHTML, they're all open source with, at most, a bit of closed source code for the UI. Also, the rapid growth of IoT things and computer control of nearly everything is another avenue: mostly these run Linux or one of a selection of RTOSes, of which some are proprietary and some are open source, with vendor code on top. This "some proprietary bits, but the bulk of the code, including the core components, is open source" model is now incredibly common.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 16:55

red assassin wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 15:52
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 14:22
You think MS or Apple or anyone else wouldn't fire any of their developers that get caught sneaking in bad code into their products? I don't really see much distinction or reason to credit that action beyond an acknowledgement of that being the expectation. And I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public.

I don't really care what vulnerabilities existed in a now 18 years old and out of service commercial OS. Windows has evolved and been patched as has Linux, OSX, Unix, on and on. You can preach open source all day long, but the corporate world runs on Windows. If open source platforms provided that much more security and stability, that wouldn't be the case and you would have 3rd party developers falling over themselves to write their products for the opensource platforms instead of Windows.

I won't deny that open source things have their niche uses. Linux makes a great base for a firewall appliance, as a for instance. But I'd never replace my desktop OS with Linux. There may be some open source equivalencies that I could source to replace my day to day uses, but I find those EU experiences lack luster, to say the least, and lacking in features offered by commercial applications. Not to mention driver support for my hardware is often DIY - no thanks.

Maybe things will change, one day. But, some folks have been saying open source is the way to go for nearly 2 decades and doesn't seem like it's making much headway beyond the hobbyist crowd.
I think this is a baffling take for a security professional. For the record, there are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both models as far as security goes, and I don't think either is obviously correct. The problem with open source software is the bystander effect where everybody assumes that everybody else is checking the code they're using. The solution to this is the large corporate interests that rely on open source code ponying up and investing properly in it. The problem with closed source software is that it's difficult to perform security research and validate the security claims of the vendors, which means that only very large and well-resourced groups know about security vulnerabilities in said software. The solution to this is bug bounty programs and deliberately enabling - rather than fighting - security research.

This is not an argument that Microsoft aren't a major player, because they clearly are. But the idea that open source is "niche" is simply wrong. Some examples: Firstly, what's the most popular operating system in the world? If you said "Windows", nil points: it's Android, which is open source (though typically shipped with some proprietary components). In the corporate world, Windows is certainly dominant for desktop systems, but the picture is much muddier for the overall market. Windows ships more server OSes by unit than any commercial Linux vendor, but not by that much: MS take about 50% of the market, to Red Hat's 33%. But this doesn't count people who aren't paying for support contracts for open source software. In AWS, the world's largest cloud by a large margin, Linux accounts for about 90% of the market, while even on MS's own cloud Azure, Linux market share is over 50%. Windows accounts for about 25% of web servers. Meanwhile, networking hardware like routers are mostly Linux based these days, with vendors like Cisco moving from their own OS to proprietary components on Linux. It's also notable that most interaction with computers is now via a web browser (whether visibly or with something like Electron), and there are no major closed source web browsers left: with the death of EdgeHTML, they're all open source with, at most, a bit of closed source code for the UI. Also, the rapid growth of IoT things and computer control of nearly everything is another avenue: mostly these run Linux or one of a selection of RTOSes, of which some are proprietary and some are open source, with vendor code on top. This "some proprietary bits, but the bulk of the code, including the core components, is open source" model is now incredibly common.
How's that baffling? You just pretty much said the same things I did, just more wordy. I already said opensource platforms have their niche uses, like Linux on firewalls. I guess I should have used more examples like Android cell phones or IOT devices that clearly have to run some kind of OS. Sorry... I'll detail out other use cases in the future if I can be bothered to do so.

And for the record, among desktops, Windows has 75% of the market share as of March, 2021, with OSX being the next at 16% https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-sh ... /worldwide. It's hardly surprising that Android phones, when all sources are considered, currently have the lead when the Android phones are super cheap or it's installed on a Smart TV (Sony). It's also no surprise that the Android OS has been a frequent target of attacks, despite all of the opensourceness. <-- see my point, "And I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public."

Interesting tidbit, things switch up in the US, and Windows and IOS are neck and neck in overall market share and Android is trailing behind.

Point being, that while Linux may have its place in appliances, which I said, it ain't sitting on desktops. And for something like Windows that has limited portability beyond a laptop or tablet for it to still maintain such a high market share when considering cellphones and IoT devices, that says quite a bit.

I'm not making arguments for or against opensource. I do have arguments for closed source stuff, if for no other reason than vendor and 3rd party support.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by red assassin » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 17:31

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 16:55
How's that baffling? You just pretty much said the same things I did, just more wordy. I already said opensource platforms have their niche uses, like Linux on firewalls. I guess I should have used more examples like Android cell phones or IOT devices that clearly have to run some kind of OS. Sorry... I'll detail out other use cases in the future if I can be bothered to do so.

And for the record, among desktops, Windows has 75% of the market share as of March, 2021, with OSX being the next at 16% https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-sh ... /worldwide. It's hardly surprising that Android phones, when all sources are considered, currently have the lead when the Android phones are super cheap or it's installed on a Smart TV (Sony). It's also no surprise that the Android OS has been a frequent target of attacks, despite all of the opensourceness. <-- see my point, "And I still fail to see how having source code available for everyone to see makes something more secure than something that isn't available to the public."

Interesting tidbit, things switch up in the US, and Windows and IOS are neck and neck in overall market share and Android is trailing behind.

Point being, that while Linux may have its place in appliances, which I said, it ain't sitting on desktops. And for something like Windows that has limited portability beyond a laptop or tablet for it to still maintain such a high market share when considering cellphones and IoT devices, that says quite a bit.

I'm not making arguments for or against opensource. I do have arguments for closed source stuff, if for no other reason than vendor and 3rd party support.
You described open source software - the paradigm which is anywhere from neck-and-neck to absolutely dominant in literally every operating system market except desktop computing - as "niche" and "doesn't seem like it's making much headway beyond the hobbyist crowd". That's what I find baffling. If anything, desktop computing is the niche at this point.

Also, re vendor support, that's literally what companies like Red Hat and Canonical do for open source software in the corporate world. As I pointed out, Red Hat alone isn't far off MS' market share for servers.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 24. Apr 21, 19:24

red assassin wrote:
Sat, 24. Apr 21, 17:31
If anything, desktop computing is the niche at this point.
Yes, a feasible scenario is that desktop will vanish and die completely rather than Linux take over.


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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 6. May 21, 10:19

Africa's so far oldest burial has been unburied. It dates to ~78,000 BP, a ~3 year old modern human child. Other intentional burials in Europe and Asia data back 120,000 BP, modern humans and Neandertals.

Paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03457-8

Pop science:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00805-6
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05 ... -years-ago

Method of dating:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence_dating

Burial rites are seen as part of what's somewhat generically called modern behavior, or behavioral modernity (attention, the wikipedia article is outdated), though the term should be used with caution because it carries some implications. Is currently thought that it gradually and variably arose between 800,000 and 40,000 before now, across different human species. Artwork like paintings and carvings, personal adornement, composite tools, advanced stone tool technology and burial rites are among the indicators.
Last edited by BaronVerde on Thu, 6. May 21, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by CBJ » Thu, 6. May 21, 10:27

BaronVerde wrote:
Thu, 6. May 21, 10:19
Until before, no intentional burial hac been found in Africa...
This news article doesn't give much info about it, but it does suggest there is another:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56986457

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by BaronVerde » Thu, 6. May 21, 10:50

Yep, Border Cave: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
as well as Taramsa Hill in Egypt. I have corrected my post.

Edit: other sites with 'earliest personal adornement' in and around Africa, partly discussed, are for instance and incompletely listed without any order: Forbes Quarry in Gibraltar (Neandertal), Shkul in the Levant (modern humans and Neandertals), and a site in Morocco whose name I forgot. :gruebel:

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 9. May 21, 00:41

That guy constructs incredible wind driven kinetic contraptions he named Strandbeest (beach beast or animal):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gaK2KmVcA

Beautiful :-)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 21. May 21, 20:11

Finally - goodbye Internet Explorer. You were a pain in the ... other side. Good riddance!

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by burger1 » Mon, 24. May 21, 18:50

21 out of 172 Marathon runners killed in China by weather.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/22/china/ch ... index.html

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by felter » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 22:50

So Yesterday was the start of the latest meeting of the G7 and Bozo Johnson opened it up by saying he wanted to put an end to inequality. I have to say what the **** does he know about inequality when he was born raised and lived not wanting for anything. What does he known about inequality when he recently spent £39K renovating his temporary accommodation and didn't even use his own money for doing so. What does he know about inequality as Just last year he was denying the children of the UK's poorest free school meals, saying that they didn't need them as they could afford to pay for them themselves. What does he know about inequality when he stops all UK foreign charity putting a stop to the feeding and education of the needy. What does he know about inequality as he continually breaks the law and gets away with it because of who he is.

There are hypocrites and then there are the Boris Johnson's of this world, he knows nothing about inequality or the suffering that inequality brings about. I don't see him bringing himself down to the level of anyone else and he most certainly is not going to help them out either. as he doesn't care about anyone other then himself.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 13. Jun 21, 09:47

My full agreement, @felter. A whole caste of politicians grab all they can and give a shit about others.

This fits right in:
A reconstruction of the events that led to a 7 Feb 2021 debris flow and rock/ice avalanche. Among others, unsustainable development is identified as a key factor.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/ ... 4455?rss=1

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 13. Jun 21, 10:00

@ felter: I'm just curious, so would you rather that Boris did not take a stance on inequality at the G7 Summit? :?
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 13. Jun 21, 10:26

As far as I am concerned, I would of course rather Boris and consorts would stop producing their ego and stashing wealth and do their jobs for a sustainable future. "I want to put an end to something" is just verbiage, he already had years to accomplish something and the outcome (not only but also because of the incompetence of likes of him) is to the contrary of their saying. Inequality is on the rise and nobody stops it. This has become constant news, so it goes without proof but ofc I will produce if called for. And I am not even talking about their divisive behaviour in general.

------------------------
But we digress from the random news :-)

A funny random news item, Linus at his best:
But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information
from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your
idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me.
... and so he goes on in response to an excretor of anti-vaccination nonsense who claimed that someone is trying to create a new human 'race'. What an utter ... you get it :-) Taken from the https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957. Context is that now that they are vaccinated they can meet again in person.

And no, I have nothing to with Linux dev, I'm just an interested tinkerer.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by red assassin » Sun, 13. Jun 21, 11:02

My big problem with Johnson in this context is that he just can't help rubbing people's faces in how insincere he's being. Case in point: climate change is a major topic on the agenda for these meetings. Naturally, he chose to fly by private jet from London to Cornwall for the meeting, and then pose for press photos on the stairs of his jet to make it really, really clear that it had happened. Argh.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 17:10

BaronVerde wrote:
Sun, 13. Jun 21, 10:26
Linus ... and so he goes on ...
I'd say the "outbursts" are relatively limited and controlled. Majority of the post is educational. More than a moderator needs to say.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by burger1 » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:15

Win 10 losing support in 2025. Win 11 coming.

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows- ... w-imminent

Nvidia stopping support for 700 and 600 series cards pretty soon. August 31st 2021 might be the last supported driver date.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/its-of ... om-october.

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