Chris Roberts new project... Star Citizen

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 19:22

I wanted to revisit something...
Chips wrote:It's also fair to point out that GTA probably had infrastructure to start with,..
Just pulling this out as a general theme when comparing AAA franchise titles to Star Citizen as an example.

GTA knew where it was going.

"It" knew what the theme was going to be, knew the primary sort of gameplay the player was going to engage in, knew how the player would interact with the environment and also had several previous test-beds it could draw on for improvements and additions. It also had a plan for new features and, having the knowledge gained from previous development, already had a handle on how to shoehorn things together.

SC had an "idea."

None of the archaic, but revolutionary at the time, gameplay mechanics of previous games would be remarkable and the "experience" of implementing them would be practically worthless, if even anyone remembered. In short - All they can draw on from previous examples is creating a game that generates the same enthusiasm in players, perhaps marginally capitalizing on some general themes that fans enjoyed.

But... Star Citizen is now nothing at all like "Wing Commander," the original inspiration. It's "Elite" on steroids or much more like "Privateer" in theme. That's not a bad thing, really, since those are also great games.

The point is that they started out with an idea, added a much larger element to it, and are now continuing to "supersize" all the way, much like they did with the original idea.

"Make it biggerer!"

From an outsider, that's what I hear them saying with all the additions. Why? That's the phrase that got them so much attention, so, in their possible minds, that's what has given them some "success." If that is true, why not just "make it biggerer," right? That's what the public wants and they want to make a game people want to play.

But, in the quest to "Make it Biggerer," they seemed to have abandoned the idea that their goal is to actually make a game that is worthy of being released. Why?

People continue to buy into the process and they continue to reward them.

"Look at the cute monkey! It's throwing poo! Give it a peanut, it's so cute! Oh, look, it's throwing poo again! Isn't that just hilarious? Give it another peanut!"

The game will get released when, in the next budget review, they realize that they're going to run out of money and that continued primary development is no longer sustainable. Until then, they will continue to throw poo until people stop rewarding them.

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Post by Chips » Tue, 13. Mar 18, 22:21

Chris Roberts was behind Freelancer, which was (at original launch) an influence on the design of SC. A lot of what Chris wanted for FL was in SC.

Freelancer itself was late, overbudget, and Chris left as Digital Anvil were bought out by Microsoft - who allegedly "pushed" Freelancer out before it was ready and without a lot of the features originally stated.

I like Robert's enthusiasm, but he is too emotionally invested and unable to say where a line gets drawn. That, had it not been for the supposedly EVIL Microsoft, would have killed Freelancer. It very nearly did.

It may kill Star Citizen, but I believe something will get released at some point. I hope it lives up to all promised, but I'm emotionally detached from this :D It's done when it's done. Until then I'll play some Hearts of Iron 4, wait for Mount and Blade 2 - and check out a few other titles of interest in the interim :D

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Post by raess2013 » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 02:53

Tycow wrote:
raess2013 wrote: I can't understand why people are always so emotional about it. It is just a game in development.
I'd flip that statement... I can't understand why people rabidly defend this project...

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea and scope of SC, however the implementation so far leaves something to be desired (and that's an understatement).

Gotta sell those ship jpegs somehow I guess...
There is nothing to defend. They are making ~35 million a year from roughly 1 million backers so it seems the customers are still satisfied.
That they need to make money to sustain the business is a no brainer. 475 employees want to get paid.

There are no mass leavings, no studios closing or reports about people don't get paid like crytek.
There are collaborations with industry leading companies like Intel who even launched their optane SSDs through SC, though. There are Amazon, AMD and many more; companies that did their due diligence before working with CIG for sure.

I don't need to defend an alpha either, it's not a released game and looking at Spellforce 3 and Rebirth at launch I find it a little bit hilarious to attack them over the state of an alpha where massive bugs and glitches are to be expected.

I can only defend something that needs defending, that is in danger but SC isn't in danger. I like discussions though and we are in a forum.

I am a fan and backer, additionally very interested in game development so I educate myself on the topic. It helps a lot to put things into perspective. SC isn't so special regarding their development. Compared to Uncharted 4, Diablo 3, Destiny etc. they are doing well and we are talking about a start up compared to established studios here.
Maybe that's the problem, there is nothing to compare the project too, because 99% of game development happens behind closed doors.

I can only give the advice that someone who wants a finished product should wait for release and people who have doubts should stay away from the project too. There is no one forcing you to get on this long ride.

Speaking of releases: I bought Rebirth and couldn't finish the first mission due to game breaking bugs. Spellforce crashed until the latest patch and Elex doesn't want to start on my desktop anymore.
Glad that I have a beefy laptop where the game runs without a problem so I can continue the story...

That are things that are far more concerning than an ambitious project with a buggy alpha.
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Post by Tycow » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 12:46

My statement regarding "rabidly defending" wasn't aimed at you directly, but thanks for providing that response.
raess2013 wrote: There is nothing to defend. They are making ~35 million a year from roughly 1 million backers so it seems the customers are still satisfied.
That they need to make money to sustain the business is a no brainer. 475 employees want to get paid.

There are no mass leavings, no studios closing or reports about people don't get paid like crytek.
There are collaborations with industry leading companies like Intel who even launched their optane SSDs through SC, though. There are Amazon, AMD and many more; companies that did their due diligence before working with CIG for sure.

I don't need to defend an alpha either, it's not a released game and looking at Spellforce 3 and Rebirth at launch I find it a little bit hilarious to attack them over the state of an alpha where massive bugs and glitches are to be expected.
Customers are satisfied? Sweeping statement is sweeping. I'm a customer... I'm not satisfied with how SC is being developed. Judging from the posts on r/StarCitizen_Refunds, others are not happy to the point of getting their money back. We cannot escape the fact that the game is 3 years overdue (originally due for release in 2014 - date was revised to 2017, and still no release). The alpha, if a true reflection of the current state of the game, shows that a final release is nowhere near ready. As far as I know, there isn't even a revised release date available (although how much weight you could put on it is questionable at this stage).

I'm not even sure how to address your middle point - of course other companies will have done due diligence checks, however I'm sure companies that were associated with Barings Bank or Enron did the same...

I see your point regarding other games, but this isn't the "BUGGY GAMES HERE" thread, it's the Star Citizen discussion - the state of X Rebirth and Spellforce are irrelevant.

Boiling down to it, and because I don't want to get into a long and protracted argument: I am a space game fan, of course I want to see SC succeed. I've backed SC (at a low level that gives me an Aurora and SQ42 access), and I've got one of the limited golden tickets from GDC 2012 but I'm keeping a realistic view of what information is available to Joe Public. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm not expecting the final result to end up anything like the game that was described back then.
I can only give the advice that someone who wants a finished product should wait for release and people who have doubts should stay away from the project too. There is no one forcing you to get on this long ride.
Probably the best bit of advice you can give, really.

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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 12:55

Chips wrote:...It may kill Star Citizen, but I believe something will get released at some point. I hope it lives up to all promised, but I'm emotionally detached from this :D It's done when it's done. Until then I'll play some Hearts of Iron 4, wait for Mount and Blade 2 - and check out a few other titles of interest in the interim :D
A good attitude to have. But, if you're waiting for Bannerlord, you may need to adopt similar stoicism... I've stopped checking and don't bother with their dev updates anymore. It will come when it comes.

PS - Every damn year I see HoI-IV with all the DLC go on sale and think to myself, "Now's the time" only to forget to get it... It goes on sale often enough that I should have it five-times-over, already. But, now, it's the principle of the thing, like hunting some big jabberwocky that I can only feel satisfied in bagging if I catch it in its lair... "HOI-IV, I'm coming for you in the Steam Summer Sale!" :) (I'll probably forget, again...)

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Post by muppetts » Wed, 14. Mar 18, 15:46

raess2013 wrote: That are things that are far more concerning than an ambitious project with a buggy alpha.
It's not ambitious, it is badly planned and out of control. There is only so many excuses you can make saying 'it's game development' as more time ticks by, more ridiculous features are announced, that have nothing to do with the original project.

I signed up off the announcement made on the old Wing Commander boards, I know what CR said he wanted to do and this ain't it. He has let the money go to his head. I did do my due diligence on game design, I have threads in here saying so, 5 years I figured (2 more than CR), well that came and went, the old dev team got put out to pasture and the big money names rolled in.

As for 'it's an Alpha you can't complain', if you still cannot correctly place a ladder in the very FIRST ship you designed, grey boxed and put out 4 years ago, if within the closed environment of that single ship, you still have players falling through the ship floor, then you really really should not be SELLING FRICKEN TANKS.....should you.
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Post by Chips » Thu, 15. Mar 18, 00:13

Morkonan wrote:Every damn year I see HoI-IV with all the DLC go on sale and think to myself, "Now's the time" only to forget to get it...
Honestly, they've just released a new DLC (£15.49) which is hugely overpriced for what it appears to be in all honesty (considering that's about 40% the price of the full game I bought - and that contains a shed load more than the DLC).

I'm NOT a fan of their DLC pricing strategy, but it seems to work. I'd advise waiting until its on sale - base game + any dlc and possibly as a Paradox megapack.

Back to SC - I know some don't get why others aren't happy, but as I said before, the original "interest" (which we invested in, many of us Golden ticket holders from the first days!) has seen the original scope increase hugely, and now fronting centre stage FPS Squad based play. So forgive us if we go "EH?" while it's 3 years late and they do that...

There's nothing wrong with people getting annoyed about it. They've ever right to. If you don't let Mr Roberts know people are unhappy with things, then you may never see the game as it'll be endless. Needs to be kept in check!

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Post by Golden_Gonads » Thu, 15. Mar 18, 01:11

I'll reiterate my past mutterings here: All I backed it for was Squadron 42. That, they should have released years ago as what was originally described, and maybe either added to it via expansions with the ground or tank (and whatever else has been added) gameplay, or simply released multiple games, each focussing mainly on one aspect or another. That would have given us something solid to chew on whilst the main project was delayed, delayed and delayed some more, as well as allowing far greater focus, testing and public feedback.

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Post by Observe » Thu, 15. Mar 18, 04:20

Golden_Gonads wrote:All I backed it for was Squadron 42.
That's all I was interested in, but I my interest has sort of expired after all this time. What's going on with Squadron 42 anyway? It seems to have got lost (for me at least) in the never-ending hype machine.

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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 15. Mar 18, 04:46

Saw the mention and am hunting up my old SC disk. Frankly to boot it up again and and remind myself what it was all about. :gruebel:
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Post by muppetts » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 08:45

muppetts wrote:Anyone can say they will have an Alpha in 12 and game in 18, does not mean they will even come close to those timelines. Given the complex nature of such a game and the claims made I doubt you will see them keep to those dates.

If they do it will be a 1st ever in the games industry that I have seen.
This is my post in this thread from Nov 2012 with CR saying he would have an Alpha in 12 months and a game in 18. Allot of us have been involved from the start, we have heard allot of BS from Roberts, lots of grand promises and then he goes quite for a year, then he comes out with more promises then goes away then comes back etc etc. There is keeping faith and being critical of bad moves and then there is just plain naive.

Scrap Tanks, land buys, face imaging tech, vanity actor hires, criss crossing the globe in business class for 'summits'. Narrow the focus to what matters, the 'space' bit... and get that right with 3 or 4 ships, release and then develop further using feedback from backers.

This game is not 12 months out from release, 24 months would be generous and we can dig this post out on the 8 years mark, when the funding hits 300 million.

I remember when lifetime insurance on one ship for an early backer reward.
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Post by JSDD » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 09:35

the problem here is that too much money has been thrown at this for a long time by many supporters. that accumulated to an incredible amount, which means robert and his devs can sit back and do whatever they want whenever they want, there is no pressure, they've got what they wanted: money!

of course, he keeps making new promises to encourage supporters to throw money at this never ending project, which leads only in more developing time. there is practically no financial risk for robert, thats why he does developing himself a golden nose ...

what i cant believe is that (according to youtube) the game dev is still in alpha stage ...
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Post by muppetts » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 09:47

I don't think he is doing this for money, it's not a con, I think he is misguided and over indulged, I believe he genuinely thinks he is on a mission to release the most amazing thing the world of gaming has ever seen.

Not all publishers are bad, not all restrictions and control on development has a negative impact. CR is in heaven, he can indulge in all this new tech, meet people like Andy Serkis and Gary Oldman to play director, have the crowd chant his name.

He needs to be reined in
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Post by JSDD » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 10:07

muppetts wrote:He needs to be reined in
there is no one who can do that. usually thats the customer's job, but since he already has the necessary money to "play around", he doesnt need the customer(s money in the near future)

no financial risk = no worries/concerns (which means "just keep doing it")

its all about the money, without it there wouldnt be a "robertspaceindustries" (at least not that big). consider yourself as an investor/stakeholder: robert comes to you, makes all his promises, you believe him and buy some shares of his company. then you start realizing that he's fooled you, he's playing around with your money for 6 years ... at some point you will stand up, give him the middlefinger and a "F you" and sell your shares on his company. unfortunately, all thoes "kickstarters" arent able to sell any shares because they never owned anything of the company ... those are the people who are being fooled and cant do anything about it ...
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Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 10:55

muppetts wrote:I don't think he is doing this for money, it's not a con
I don't think it has to be a con for "too much money" to be a problem. Somebody can have the best intentions and still let their ambition outstrip their talent if there are no money or time pressures, and let's face it, there obviously aren't time pressures for Star Citizen when there are still people who can say with a straight face that it being four years late isn't a problem!

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Post by muppetts » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 16:48

JSDD wrote:
muppetts wrote:He needs to be reined in
there is no one who can do that. usually thats the customer's job, but since he already has the necessary money to "play around", he doesnt need the customer(s money in the near future)

no financial risk = no worries/concerns (which means "just keep doing it")

its all about the money, without it there wouldnt be a "robertspaceindustries" (at least not that big). consider yourself as an investor/stakeholder: robert comes to you, makes all his promises, you believe him and buy some shares of his company. then you start realizing that he's fooled you, he's playing around with your money for 6 years ... at some point you will stand up, give him the middlefinger and a "F you" and sell your shares on his company. unfortunately, all thoes "kickstarters" arent able to sell any shares because they never owned anything of the company ... those are the people who are being fooled and cant do anything about it ...
He's not trying to fool anyone, he's not doing this to rip people off for money, he is simply out of control and providing terrible management. I'm sure in his head he thinks everything is ok. i don't think he is a bad person, just very misguided on where to draw the line.
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Post by muppetts » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 16:50

pjknibbs wrote:
muppetts wrote:I don't think he is doing this for money, it's not a con
I don't think it has to be a con for "too much money" to be a problem. Somebody can have the best intentions and still let their ambition outstrip their talent if there are no money or time pressures, and let's face it, there obviously aren't time pressures for Star Citizen when there are still people who can say with a straight face that it being four years late isn't a problem!
I'm not saying that, having too much money is a problem, I don't think he started this with the goal of personnel wealth and this is an elaborate fraud in order to get that money.
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Post by Morkonan » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 19:05

pjknibbs wrote:
muppetts wrote:I don't think he is doing this for money, it's not a con
I don't think it has to be a con for "too much money" to be a problem. Somebody can have the best intentions and still let their ambition outstrip their talent if there are no money or time pressures, and let's face it, there obviously aren't time pressures for Star Citizen when there are still people who can say with a straight face that it being four years late isn't a problem!
People are buying into the project.

"Wow, look, everyone is supporting our project! We've got all these fans and we haven't even finished it, yet. We must be doing something right! Let's keep doing that! Yay!"

And then..

"Well, they just don't understand. All this stuff they approve of, because they're still here and staring at us, handing us money, takes time. They're still enthusiastic and every time we release a video update with cool visuals and neat tech demos, they go crazy with enthusiasm. We must be doing something right! Keep going!"

But...

"This is gonna be so cool! Space-toilets! THAT IS REALISM! OK, move this vert over here... yeah, that looks nice... And, Joe's got that new greeble-generator up and running. SPACE-TOILET-GREEBLES! Gonna be so cool... Wait, who turned off the lights? What? OUT OF MONEY? WTF? How did that happen? Dang... Well, what now? What do you mean "We gotta actually sell something? WTF else have we been doing for the past fifteen years?"

...

"Hey guys! What do you think of this box art? Yes, that's right, we're actually going to release a box version! It's gonna be so cool! You'll be able to actually hold the game in your hands, like a real video-game-experience should be experienced, with a box! What do you guys think about that?"

/moneypoursin

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Post by Observe » Sat, 17. Mar 18, 23:51

Where are things at with Squadron 42? Any word of release?

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Post by felter » Sun, 8. Apr 18, 16:25

If you are a fan boy of SC and don't think CR can do anything wrong you may not want to watch.

A history of Star Citizen from the early days of the Kickstarter and before, right up to current day, well from a few weeks back.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Florida Man Makes Announcement.
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