The state of American democracy - 1 hour video

[matthewfarmery]

Found this video about the state of American democracy. 4 speakers in slightly different fields talk about American democracy. Brings up Trump, Biden, and more. Also mentions some polls that say that each major party is a threat to democracy. Plus 20% + wants another form of rule, (doesn't say where the polls come from, at least to me)

https://www.chathamhouse.org/events/all ... -democracy

Certainly worth a watch, over an hour, but does bring up a lot of issues.

If your American, do you agree what these experts say? is American democracy at threat? or will it really hold for a bit more time? Considering how divided America is.

My personal opinion, I think a lot needs to change, a lot. Especailly the flag and how it seems to be too much of a symbol. Especailly when there are so many divides. And there been a few reports of bullying towards anyone who doesn't stand up and honour it, (football players, and baseball) and also a school teacher bullied a pupil who didn't say the last few lines, (which mentions god) yet that part of the speech was a fairly recent amendment. (Eisenhower presidency) can't find the link to the article. Other changes, reduce the age that someone becomes president.

But to me, unless there are some major sweeping changes, American democracy may not last, and that threat will come from within, and Americans won't see the dangers until its too late.

Anyway, watch the video, and see what you think.

[mr.WHO]

The divide you point out is to some extend, pretty much the same in almost every country, it's not specifically an American thing.

There is only one common factor: social media + mass media trying to monetize the outrage and divide (there is a statistical data that show societies drift away from center to left-right just when the Social media become booming, while till then people were drifting towards the center since the fall of USSR).


You want to make the world a better place?

Simply delete TikTok, Facebook and Twitter.
Throw out TV and streaming platforms like Netflix as well.
These are like junk food for your mind.


Take a break from the toxic media (it starts to become some kind of doom cult).
I guarantee you that in just a month you start to think normally about all the things.


The democracy has it's ups and downs, mainly due to the present politicians (and very noisy minority of the society) fixated on social media bubble.
However it's nothing, it's REALLY NOTHING comparing to what societies were facing 1,2,3 or more generations in the past.
There is no sign that the current society won't be able to overcome the issue eventually and if someone claim otherwise, it's probably media bubble doomcult that want to keep you depressed (or sell you a crappy book).

[matthewfarmery]

The issue with America, is that it is one of the most powerful countries on the planet. I would say that China is probably second or near that. (and in some way probably a greater threat in some way) But its rule is very different to the US. While there are divides in other countries, like the UK and its 2 party system. (well, there are other parties, but they will never reach that level of power unless there is a coalition with another party) Even then, the UK is small beans to the amount of nuclear warheads and the army size that other countries have. Germany also have problems now, no one single party will really have the power to do damage. So in that regard, America is more dangerous, especially if A, one party has a president in power, and B controls the house and the senate.

If the republicans manage to control all three, the other party will not be able to do a thing. There will be no checks and balances. Trump proved that. And also the republicans has stated if they win the midterms and control both houses, then the jan 6 investigation will be terminated. And what does that suggest to you? they want total power, and will do anything to get it. And I have been watching some of the events of that, and other Trump investigations, and the rot is very real indeed. Including, secret off the book meetings days before Jan 6, as the investigation committee are starting to get first hand reports on what went on in the west wing.

And in some cases, some of the republican senators also were involved.

The real issue is, unless there are any charges made against Trump, the republicans involved, then it will take another brighter, smarter Trump to shatter and split America in two. And if its the republicans are in power, they will look the other way and ALLOW it to happen, and the other party will not have any power to stop it.

Getting rid of social media won't really help, because, the rot and hate between red and blue is so deep, in fact, the closest America came to really dividing would be in the 1960's. (a point raised by one of the experts in the video I posted)

The problem with America, its democracy is that is not fit for purpose. and nothing will really change unless both parties agree to it. And that been really rare. Again Trump proved that. And also one of the reasons why it taking so long to investigate both Trump and his other crimes, is that this is really the first time that a former president has been charged (no charges yet, but hopeful). And a president that has abused his power. Something that the founding fathers of America didn't anticipate. Otherwise they would have put in a lot more checks and balances to prevent the likes of Trump.

So is the real threat of America's democracy crumbing, and one mad man who crowns himself emperor and has access to those nukes, (heck even the joint chiefs of staff was so worried about Trump, they had to prevent Trump from firing that red button and ending things for the rest of us.

This I think, sets America apart, and why it can go badly wrong if democracy fails.

Question is, how close to midnight are we?

Edit
Prosecutors in multiple states are investigating false Electoral College submissions

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/25/10753046 ... ge-submiss

I rest my case

[mr.WHO]

Again, you need to chill out and get out of the bubble.

Seriously I suggest the media detox therapy for one month.

After that time you can slowly get back to the media with following filters:
- if not the media, would I actually notice the issue? Yes/No?
- do I actually care about the issue? Yes/No?
- when I see the news, does it really affect me? Yes/No?

I think there were already several reports and hearings in US Congress last year.
The algorythmic driven outrage is already confirmed by many whistleblowers in social media industry.
Depression and anxiety is natural outcome of this.

Do you see evil Biden/Trump when opening the fridge and can't sleep because evil democrats/republicans will soonTM takeover the country?
You don't need to a doctor, to tell you that you're under influence of media overdose.


As for the state of democracy, it is nihil novi ever since ancient Rome and Greece.
Republic vs Democracy.
You silly Americans even have this encarved into your party names to make it easy.

I can give you a plenty example where too much democracy was actually deadly dangerous and pretty much the same amount of example where republicanism failed as well (like France is what? 5th republic in little over a century?).

The Republic is more likely to be safe and foolproof, that's the reason why most of the countries on Earth are republics, but these can become corrupted.
As for Democracy, it sounds beautiful, but it's actually really hard to make it work. If you're not very careful, sooner or later it will devolve into 51% voting to murder/steal the other 49%.
In reality there in only one democratic or near-democratic country which is Switzerland.

It's a balancing act and people try to figure out the solution for over 2000 years.
Give it another 2000 and maybe we'll figure out the right answer (or really wrong answer, like neural-link hive-mind ).

[matthewfarmery]

I'm not sure if your been insulting or having a laugh? considering how serious Trump became a madman and quite close to been an all powerful dictator. , what has social media really have to do with that? considering Trump has been more or less banned from most platforms. Yet if he does return to power, it will be bad for everyone. I mean everyone. As America will become very unstable. I don't use twitter or facebook, for your information. So again, I not finding your replies very helpful. Because Trump is a clear and present danger if he isn't stopped. Or if another Trump like person gets in, and can do everything Trump did and make it worse.

Again social media isn't the problem, because, this problem existed before there was twitter and facebook.

Why do I care? because if one man has that level of power, then the rest of the planet will suffer no end. But then again, it already suffering due the other problems like waste, rasing tensions and so on. But if one man has the power to fire nukes, which trump could have done, then the future of the world is in very grave jeopardy.

What bubble? the jan 6 committee is against the clock, investigations into Trumps dealings is slow, and may not stop him if he wants another term in the WH, Biden is losing marks, as people had some faith in him, and may or may not win another term, due to covid, the US economy and so on. This is happening. And if Trump isn't stopped, the rest of the world will feel his wrath, make no mistake there. the last 4 years of him has done a lot of damage, another 4 years of his lunacy will hurt everyone as trade, global economy will suffer. Prices are going up, fuel bills are going through the roof. It feels your the one living in a bubble.

Again social media has no effect there. I recently read a report of a single mum who had a UK bill (electricity) was about £200, now its about £600. and prices are expected to raise father.

Things are unstable, having a madman in power will makes things even worse. how is that living in a bubble when these things are happening right now?

[Vertigo 7]

Yep, totally social media's fault that Nixon wanted to "hit the Jews hard on the pot thing". Totally MSM's fault that the Oompa Loompa King riled up his lemmings to attempt to subvert an election and kill members of congress and his own VP. It's totally on twitter for a sitting member of congress blaming wildfires on "Jewish space lasers". It's obviously Facebook's fault for people being persecuted in Poland when they out a Nazi collaborator. And of course, it's clearly CNN's fault for Russia threatening to start a war.

It's never the fascist's fault. Totally all on the media outlets.

[ATTACK_HAMSTER]

It's never the fascist's fault. Totally all on the media outlets.

But that's the problem, social media and their echo chambers really do rile up the idiots - The Genie is now out of the bottle imo.

In years gone by, propaganda tools could only be accessed by the state or wealthy individuals, now any idiot can harness that power to lead the gullible

[mr.WHO]

Once you live through the first few "the end is near / it's the end of world" media induced panics, you will learn to keep healthy distance to all doomsayers.

Unfortunately some people will become addicted to media and just like alcoholics won't see beyond bottle, they will not see beyond all the doom and gloom.
You can spiral yourself into depression or simply stop drinking the toxic trash.

Last, but not least, if you're really concerned about the state of democracy, then why not to try to run for lowest local public office? or just try to join local community in any effort/project?
You will find that democracy is something more beyond current 48h-media cycle headlines.

[Cpt.Jericho]

The problem with social media is not alone the idiots who use. But also the very few - not legitimised by votes or other means - owners of said media. I don't think Zuckerberg et. al. should have the monopoly of what people should think or know. But that's what the platforms like YT or FB do: They provide the algorithms that decide what content you see; they can (and do) remove anything on their sites what they don't want.

[Vertigo 7]

It's never the fascist's fault. Totally all on the media outlets.

But that's the problem, social media and their echo chambers really do rile up the idiots - The Genie is now out of the bottle imo.

In years gone by, propaganda tools could only be accessed by the state or wealthy individuals, now any idiot can harness that power to lead the gullible

yes, well, social media has become a scape goat for fascists and their sympathizers. People are responsible for their own actions and their own words. I'm no fan of facebook and the like and I wouldn't miss em if they were to suddenly disappear into the aether, but people are consciously choosing to do and say the things they are.

[Cpt.Jericho]

The social media have the power to silence any idiot or fascist. They obviously don't, but even give them a ground where to meet and spread their hatred. Even if that doesn't make the social media hate spreaders or fascist per se, it makes them an accomplice.
The sad thing about this is: social media could be a great thing in a perfect world - connecting people; exchange views; or create understanding. Unfortunately the world is far from being perfect which perverts them to a giant heap of misinformation, propaganda and half-truth originated from people who won't be held responsible for their actions.

[Alan Phipps]

Maybe this thread's title should change to 'Social Media Discussion' or did you wish to debate the OP's topic?

[matthewfarmery]

The thing is, I do feel that the state of American democracy as it stands now, it could very well see Trump getting another 4 years. That isn't doom and gloom, but a very good "WHAT IF" It was democracy or the failings of the American democracy system that allowed that man in. It was also the failings of the same democracy that made Jan 6 happen. For those that remember, someone linked a video of the real time countings of each state, and some of those republican senators saying they want to dispute their own state results. I know Vertigo 7 was commenting on that thread. as did several others. Then the tension raised outside of that building, when that mob came and started to attack the building, and some of the police personal opened the barrages to let those people through. Anyone remember that? I sure do.

Have we forgotten that? and how easy it could happen again? This is the problem that America now faces. Sure Trump has thrown some of those groups under the bus, I won't really say which. Even then charges for those individuals seems very hit and miss. And that prompted for a house select committee to find out what happened. And Trump has been trying to fight hard to prevent the presidential archives from been released. And that same committee is against the clock before committee get shut down.

Also don't forget, that the America dollar is used for the value of oil, a lot of trade, etc. If America goes into a huge recession, it will have a massive impact for the rest of the world. We need America, even though America doesn't feel they need the world. Hence Trump tearing up the Paris climate agreement. And others. What will happen if Trump does get into power again? He will tear up everything Biden has done. Again kicking America out of many trade agreements and more. turning America into a isolationist state with Trump's American first coming from his lips every time he speaks. And do you think he will let go of that power once he back in? no. And American democracy will fail.

That is a major what if Scenario, but while Trump hasn't declared he will run, mainly because he doesn't have to abide by spending rules, but as soon as he declares, he will have to account for every nickel and dime. Which is why he not announced that he will run yet. He needs the money,. considering he is fighting many legal battles on many fronts.

But this isn't excursively about Trump, but about a democracy that allowed that kind of man, unfit to be president in the first place. and a huge risk, that man, or someone like him, will take the throne and will not let go.

Trying to turn a blind eye to this isn't going to help. But as America has a huge effect on the rest of the world, if we like it or not. We can't ignore America, even if America can ignore us.

That is the problem. And why American democracy is at serious threat. We are already seeing major prices rases, tensions between east VS west. If Russia or China, doesn't matter. Its happening. Doom and gloom yes, buts it's happening. trying to turn a blind eye to this will not help. We need America to help stabilise those tensions. But we may have a greater threat if America becomes the rest of the world's own worst enemy. And that is because of one man and his quest for absolute power.

Power corrupts
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Edit

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... ce54a3d163

Eric Trump been fact checked, when he boasted that his dad spent 24 hours a day in the WH, in fact, trump barely spent any time in the WH building, and spent more time on the golf course and other Trump.org buildings. (costing US tax payers a lot of money.) Trump wanted the power, but didn't want the job or the responsibility of been a president. So with that, if Trump did win another term, the WH will be in utter chaos, (in fact, I'm wondering who will even work for him? considering many of his former staff has testified against him. (not all, but the list of subpoenas is growing by the day. If that mad man takes the throne, the world will be a very cold and dark place to live in.

Edit 2
Very good piece about Trump's use of the executive branch to withhold vital documents, including his tax returns (to the house and senate ) for those that do remember, he did promise to release those said tax returns before he did become president.

It went to the supreme court and 8 -1 against trump. However, this could make things very murky for current and former presidents. And the whole constitution in general.

and this has open one major can of worms that could very well tear the American constitution in half. while for the time, the vote is against trump to use executive privileges to withhold evidence. It seems to be still skirting around a very fundamental issue that hasn't been resolved fully. Who has executive privileges still? the former president or the current sitting president? More work on this needs to be done, but unless this goes back to the supreme court in other cases, then executive branch could be open up to abuse.

https://www.hoover.org/research/executi ... -seriously

Interesting and thought provoking read if you have the time.

[Chips]

I haven't watched an hour long program and don't really intend to; it's quite a commitment to a topic.

Quick question, in how is democracy crumbling or in danger, according to you and/or the video? How is it a failing of the system that Trump got in?

I'm only asking as while I read bits of comments here I noticed some about the media and/or social media not censoring various individuals. Then I remembered the "Freedom of speech" type threads/claims/critiques in the past; how would they deciding upon whom to censor tally with freedoms held dear and defended by some? (I'm offering no opinion on this, just questioning).

As a starter, if we're on the same from the get go:

Democracy - a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

AFAIK anyone can join the parties, or even create a new one, run for leadership, and try to get voted in by their peers. Afaik anyone over a certain voting age is eligible to vote as long as a national of said nation? Or are there proposed changes to take the vote away from segments?

So democracy failing, or crumbling, in what way?

[CBJ]

The problem is less about how Trump got in, and more about what has been happening since he got out, though the two are obviously related. I've not watched the video either, so I'll just give you my take on what the looming issues are.

Firstly, democracy relies on fair and equal access to voting, and on all the votes cast carrying equal weight. This is being undermined. Efforts are being made to make it harder for certain categories of voters to vote, for example through restrictions on the availability of methods of voting or polling locations. Regarding the equal weight aspect, voting boundaries are being set in a partisan way, to group categories of voters in such a way that the number of districts returned does not accurately reflect the number of voters (see "gerrymandering" for more info).

Secondly, democracy relies on all parties involved accepting and abiding by the results. What's happening in the US is that repeated attempts are being made to undermine confidence in those results, and to find ways to override results that don't go the "right" way. While the latter part of these attempts didn't succeed this time around, the former part is ongoing to try and ensure that it does succeed next time, and it seems to be working all too well. Meanwhile, although some the "low-level" individuals involved in attempts to override the democratic process by the use of force have been brought to justice for their actions, many of those who organised those attempts and/or tried to take advantage of them, have not been, thereby boosting their confidence to try again next time; time is running out to rectify this.

And finally, democracy relies on there being systems in place to ensure that the democratic process is upheld. Some of those seem to be missing entirely, while others are being abused to obstruct the democratic process. Attempts to resolve the issues in the previous paragraphs, for example, are being blocked by the very people who are undermining the democratic process, in some cases using the very systems that were theoretically supposed to protect that process (see "filibuster" for more info on one example of this).

[mr.WHO]

I'm only asking as while I read bits of comments here I noticed some about the media and/or social media not censoring various individuals. Then I remembered the "Freedom of speech" type threads/claims/critiques in the past; how would they deciding upon whom to censor tally with freedoms held dear and defended by some? (I'm offering no opinion on this, just questioning).

I think you do not really see the actual difference between freedom of speech and censorship.


a few years ago at the bus stop from my work I had a dude with a megaphone that was literaly screaming "The end is near, repent, repent!" every day for months.
Him screaming in public place is free speech.
If I'd go and bash his head with his megaphone, that's censorship.
If a policeman would get and bash his head as well, that's censorship.
If a policeman come to me and cover my ears saying "this is misinformation", that would be censorship, also creepy as f***.
Me, putting headphones into my ears, playing some music to retain sanity...is not censorship.

The current state of media is that dude screaming at every corner, 24/7/365 in every medium possible, random mobs of activist bashing random people on the street for simply staying near and police covering your ears instead of catching criminals - literally a toxic insanity that would baffle you in real life.

Addendum - spam filters are not censorship.
Every single anti-phishing training say "message that try to affect your emotions, push sence of urgency and last-chance opportunity is made to abuse your basic human instints".

99% of media noise is simply a spam that try to sell you an imaginary narrative.


It worth to repeat, because there is waaaay to much doom message pumped by media on both sides like no tomorrow:
If someone think evil Biden/Trump is going to get you and democrats/republicans are about to takeover and ruin democracy...the problem might be inside the head.
If your message is "THEY are going to get you and that THEY are everywhere", you might be an unsound person at best and at worst you're starting to grow a moustache (the tiny one, or the big one...there isn't much of a difference at the end).

[Chips]

I'm only asking as while I read bits of comments here I noticed some about the media and/or social media not censoring various individuals. Then I remembered the "Freedom of speech" type threads/claims/critiques in the past; how would they deciding upon whom to censor tally with freedoms held dear and defended by some? (I'm offering no opinion on this, just questioning).

I think you do not really see the actual difference between freedom of speech and censorship.

*snip*

K, not remotely addressed the question posed. The bit you highlight isn't even relevant to the questions asked

[mr.WHO]

K, not remotely addressed the question posed. The bit you highlight isn't even relevant to the questions asked

OK, I'll wrap it up to answer your question and clamp it together with OP initial problem.

The whole "Freedom of Speech" discussion goes in who and how should decide to censor.
Some want big daddy gov/corp to do this for them, but when you look at something so silly as Twitch thots preferential treatment, do you really want those people to decide censorship for you?
Ultimately only you can decide for yourself, no one else.

Saying that someone should tone down on an alcohol, because it's bad for the health is not automaticaly advocating for state wide prohibiliton.

There is already very good practical application of this in digital world - Steam.
A few years ago Steam said they will not censor the games on their platform. This made that now on Steam you can find really disgusting and wicket crap that make Steam look like nuthouse.
Fortunately Steam allow users to hide and block some content by tags and it's working, so Steam actually looks sane without heavy handed censorship.




I started the whole media discussion, because it's now massive and primary medium shaping the politics - people these days would rather leave a like than do something material for their local community. This really takes a dark and toxic turn, giving the impression for many that end of democracy is near.

This is also connected with the media cycle absolute goldfish attention span. If people barelly have an attention to stay for 90 second TikTok video, how can they figure out if things are good or bad? Even OP 1 hour video is but a blip of noise.

Once you live through 3-5 election cycles and read a few dozen history books you will be able to figure it out by yourself, but it takes time and effort.
BTW I mean history books, not political commentary books, these age very badly (e.g. Fukuyama "End of History" - it was very famous back in the days, now it looks like a brainlet of naive child).

[matthewfarmery]

The problem is less about how Trump got in, and more about what has been happening since he got out, though the two are obviously related. I've not watched the video either, so I'll just give you my take on what the looming issues are.

Firstly, democracy relies on fair and equal access to voting, and on all the votes cast carrying equal weight. This is being undermined. Efforts are being made to make it harder for certain categories of voters to vote, for example through restrictions on the availability of methods of voting or polling locations. Regarding the equal weight aspect, voting boundaries are being set in a partisan way, to group categories of voters in such a way that the number of districts returned does not accurately reflect the number of voters (see "gerrymandering" for more info).

Secondly, democracy relies on all parties involved accepting and abiding by the results. What's happening in the US is that repeated attempts are being made to undermine confidence in those results, and to find ways to override results that don't go the "right" way. While the latter part of these attempts didn't succeed this time around, the former part is ongoing to try and ensure that it does succeed next time, and it seems to be working all too well. Meanwhile, although some the "low-level" individuals involved in attempts to override the democratic process by the use of force have been brought to justice for their actions, many of those who organised those attempts and/or tried to take advantage of them, have not been, thereby boosting their confidence to try again next time; time is running out to rectify this.

And finally, democracy relies on there being systems in place to ensure that the democratic process is upheld. Some of those seem to be missing entirely, while others are being abused to obstruct the democratic process. Attempts to resolve the issues in the previous paragraphs, for example, are being blocked by the very people who are undermining the democratic process, in some cases using the very systems that were theoretically supposed to protect that process (see "filibuster" for more info on one example of this).

That is a very good response. I would farther add, that Trump wanted the US military to seize all the voting machines in the USA. That was an unsigned executive order that has recently been found when the Jan 6 committee finally had more access to the US national archives.

If that had been signed, then US democracy would have fallen there and then.

I think the other problem with democracy in America, is the states, that each has their own laws and regulations. That and the election college system, that doesn't really work anymore. As it's a system that was good back when it was first conceived. But, like much of the constitution, needs to be thrown in the bin and start from scratch. Like the Gun laws, the executive branch, etc. Stuff that will never change because nether party will have the courage or the numbers to change anything. And both parties will not want to change them, as the laws suit their own purpose, or fear that they will anger many like the National Rifle Association and other big donors. Money talks right?

These are just parts of the problems, and no easy solution either. It would take a powerful president that will have the courage and honour to change this, but on the flip side, one president could very well end it all. Again there seems very little in checks and balances. We only have to see Trumps impeachments trials to see that.

So the problems are many, and no easy fix. But what Trump has proven, he has been allowed to bend or even break some of those laws. And why I do fear his return.

Edit

One expert on civil wars has commented that the US has fallen from the zone of democracy, thus sliding down towards the anocracy zone.

https://www.rawstory.com/what-is-anocra ... tion_start

The U.S. recently fell out of the rankings of democratic nations, and one expert worries that it will happen again -- and tip the country into civil war.

Barbara Walter, a University of California professor and an expert on civil conflicts, recently wrote about the political volatility in the U.S. since the Jan. 6 insurrection, which dropped the country into the anocracy zone, and she told CNN the riot had made the deadly risks from Donald Trump's lies "impossible to deny and ignore."

"Anocracies are neither fully democratic nor fully autocratic; their citizens enjoy some elements of democratic rule (e.g., elections), while other rights (e.g., due process or freedom of the press) suffer," Walter wrote for the Washington Post. "In the last weeks of Donald Trump’s presidency, the respected Center for Systemic Peace (CSP) calculated that, for the first time in more than two centuries, the United States no longer qualified as a democracy. It had, over the preceding five years, become an anocracy."

So yes, The danger is very real if US democracy slides even farther down.

[Chips]

K, not remotely addressed the question posed. The bit you highlight isn't even relevant to the questions asked

OK, I'll wrap it up to answer your question and clamp it together with OP initial problem.

*Snip*

Okay, but afraid I don't understand what you're posting about relative to the question asked.

CBJ seems to have provided precisely the info/viewpoint on the perception of democracy dying/dead/at threat though (obviously the at threat, not the other two - any indication of those?).
I don't know if that's what the video was about, or whether it was what you're on about. Didn't manage to understand (if you were making a point?) regarding the "tiktok thot attention span" relevance to "death of democracy" though.