OOS Combat Resolution (Was: OOS Missile firing test.)

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wyvern11
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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 13:54

for clearance sake my observations stem from watching sector map
i take it that your observations stem from watching properties list?

btw:
where do the update-rate-information for
sector map
properties list
originally come from?

@misioooo :

concerning your part 1: imho it does not look that way in sector map. one almost always sees same fractions of shield/hull vanish - like it is calculated which battery scores a hit and then the full damage of the battery is dealt to the opponent - the more batteries score the better

@ttl : point 3: you speak about PPC and XTM, i presume ?
Did not really test XTM until now, but i heard that they lowered PPC firing rate to better performance an increased damage - i understand that from this OOS-issues arose?
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Post by ttl » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 14:23

@misioo: You are right that this sequence is not the same for a general probability distribtuion. It is for a uniform distribution, however. That is 1/a*f(a*x)=f(x) for a uniform prob. distribution f.

@wyvern11: PPCs with XTM definedly, but I recall seeing statements like that sometime before at these forums, too. And you're right, it would actually make sense to do the logic turret-by-turret, since every turret runs independent scripts on their own tasks. And maybe the math is just that the full power of the turret is applied or then nothing (a miss). Don't know, but experimenting with ships with only main guns would tell (they should always deal constant damage then).

In terms of modding the lasers to make for better performance and gameplay, the three guestions above are still the ones I would like to know. The details of the randomization procedure are not something we can influcence, and almost impossible to prove by experimentation anyway.

Oh, and the only difference between sector map and property list is likely the time step length. (5s when sector map open, 30s otherwise)

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Post by zazie » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 14:30

jlehtone wrote on page 1 wrote:(...) But if command of the ship is ignored, then any Freighter with installed turret gun will cause damage on enemies OOS, even if player forgets to set any turret command.
Very interesting !
(slightly of topic:) I have written it many times in the German section (and of course it has been discussed in the English section too) that player should refrain from putting missiles onto their UniTraders for missile defence because there is a risk that the UTs start fighting/defending themselves instead of jumping away. But my advice was based on observation (and some very basical hand written statistics about death-ratio of UTs with and without missiles in the same sector).
It looks like you have found a objective explanation (or the hypothesis of an obj.expl.)

On topic:
What do you think about this reflection ?
In my (vanilla-)games I have never bought a ship of M2 or M1-class though I had by far the ranks I needed. My sector patrols were in 97% (or more) able to stop Xenon Patrols without loss, even after the LX appeared (we talk about OOS here). They had different set-ups (mainly Hydras, but Elephants, Centaurs and Nemesis as well; different number and type of wingmen).
But wyvern11 and others gave several examples that THEIR comparable patrols were no longer able to resist the LX-patrols. They lost more than I did in my game. One of the explanations on the German forums were: missiles.
But I had a theory that the overall power of the Xenon patrols increases not (only) corresponding to the player's rank but to the type of potential enemy, i. e. M2 or M1. The lack of this ship-class in my games seem to have an effect on NPC-behavior.
Comments on this theory ?

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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 14:34

@ttl:
the 5s and the 30s i already heard - do you perchance know a source?
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Post by ttl » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 15:18

@wyvern11: The globals.txt file and http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=178881 . Of course there is no way to tell that is the only difference, but I would guess so.

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Post by B-O'F » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 15:28

Hi,

This is quoted under the command 'get current galaxy flight timestep in ms' - top of page 55.

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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 15:34

@ttl
thanks for the link to a thread i actually took part in - aarrrghhh memory lack

@zazie - could you please post your "standard" patrol setup for p-sectors
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Post by zazie » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 16:06

P-Sectors (Xenon patrols): "Standard" Setup
Hydra: all b-HEPTs, a-HEPT in turret (if I remember correctly). EDIT: The Hydras of my actual game have 2 beta Pulse Cannons too. Never used them in my first game.
4 LX as wingmen: 2 beta Pulse Cannons, 6 a-HEPTs, 2 b-HEPTs (turrets)(formerly: Nova Raider and/or Pirate Nova Raider with all a-HEPTs)

Formation: X or claw (both work)
Orders: Hydra on Sector patrol, LX1 - 3: protect Hydra; LX4: protect LX 1

Pirate Sectors:
the same but b-IRE in back-turret

Missile fire probability: 5 % (default) but rarely missiles on board
Last edited by zazie on Tue, 26. Jun 07, 10:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 17:46

Is the 'galaxy flight timestep' used for both combat and movement? It apparently is used in update of ship positions.

I "watch" OOS by having the sector map open and actually having the data of Pirate Base open, as you cannot see the shield status of station from the map. "nonwatch" is waiting on galaxy map with watch and then shifting to "watch" to see what has happened. Observations may be skewed, as the target is a station rather than a ship.

When I "watch", the shield of Base recharges frequently, by small amounts. I'd say once per second. That is against the timestep being 5 seconds for shield recharge.

If the combat resolution does use the fire rate of the weapon and the damage of weapon, then

Code: Select all

max damage = damage/shot * shots/minute * timestep
Assuming 600,000 hull points was 100% of max damage of 8 BHEPT, then timestep is 30 seconds. But I was watching, so 'galaxy flight timestep' was 5 seconds. So what is the real timestep, and does it depend on ships?

A dice is a dice, but I think we can figure out something about the nature of the dice. If I had a braincell, I would write a script:

Code: Select all

10 spawn ship A and ship B
20 while exists A and B
30   write timestamp, A.shield, A.hull, B.shield, B.hull to logfile
40   wait 1 sec

Almost invariably (post-2.0.02) when I have heard "Your ship (M1) is under attack (p-sector)" and I have checked, the Carrier has lost about 2 GJ of shield and has still about 6 Xenon fighters to kill. Thus, it has killed P and couple fighters already, but sustained good damage doing so. At 30 second timestep three kills need more than a minute. Those Carriers patrol alone (except I doubled Menelaus after "close shave", so there are two Raptors).

Most missiles do less damage than guns, and enemy missiles are rare. Thus, they are not so important. But player patrols can have plenty of missiles, big missiles. X2 threads claimed that Wasps can make a Dragon kill Khaak M5's of a Cluster very quickly. The gunpower of X2 Dragon was superior to damage of X2 Wasp, so there must have been a significant difference between OOS probabilities of X2 guns and X2 missiles. X3 is a different game, but there is much legacy code around ...
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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 17:53

@zazie
i see. given the fact that the other day a xenon-patrol (or two?) shot down a centaur and shredded 70% of M7's shields my xenon might laugh their brains out

your theory of a hidden factor calculated from player fleet strength definitely would explain that - and the statistical differences between player-colossus and argon colossus mentioned earlier up

EDIT by the way, how many corvettes do you own

if i get the time (and am smart enough to script it) i'll try to check it up this evening and onwards

1st test: differences between player and argon colossus vs xenon (colossus)
2nd test: script more or less capitals - differences
3rd test: add some heavy missiles and heighten fire probability, maybe different weapons loadout as well

@ttl : i see no way to check different generator power other of using another ship - it is thus difficult to discern the effect of generator compared to rest of ship. do you?
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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 21:12

wyvern11 wrote:@ttl : i see no way to check different generator power other of using another ship - it is thus difficult to discern the effect of generator compared to rest of ship. do you?
Make a copy of the ship entry (for example Colossus) in the TShips and change only the ID (and name, perhaps) and the generator. Ie, create new, almost identical ship.

But I think we can get weapon differences and maybe ship class differences first (without modding).

M6 dying more easily just because there exists M2 elsewhere, while possible, feels a bit akward.
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Post by ttl » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 21:47

The obvious way the generator should come to play is as a limit for the firepower. So the max damage would be capped by the weapon generator.

My first idea to check this would have been to put the energy cost AHEPTs to zero (or one per shot), mount 8 AHEPTs on an M3 an M6 and M2, and check the damage per shot. If the OOS combat works as one would expect, they should have the same damage.

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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 22:38

Once again, a K meets Pirate Base:

1 AIRE installed in down turret
24 GPPC in hold
16 BFAA in hold
All turrets 'None'
K-> 'Move to position P.Base'
K-> 'Attack P.Base'
Immediately after that I started watching the Base. Its shield got a small dent, never more than 5 MJ, every 30 seconds. I guess the first hit occurred 10 seconds after I gave the command. I watched this 3-4 minutes and then left it unwatched for couple more. No change. Guns in hold do not matter.

K-> 'None'
Remove AIRE; Install 24 GPPC, 16 BFAA
All turrets 'Attack enemies'
Five minutes not watching and not a scratch on the Base.

K-> 'Attack P.Base'
Here I fumbled and closed the Galaxy map. By the time I got back to the sector map, the Pirate Base vanished. That was 8 seconds after giving the command. Single hit kill.
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Post by ttl » Tue, 26. Jun 07, 01:14

So how much damage can an AIRE deal in 30secs? 5MJ? And what about that AIRE in an M3, which should also have enough generator to continuously fire it? Should be the same damage, hopefully ...

Sorry if I seem like a pester ... I'm just anxious to know, and don't own anything big in my XTM0.7 restart.. :)

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Post by wyvern11 » Tue, 26. Jun 07, 08:38

results on first test :

single player colossus : 6 wins
single xenon colossus : 24 wins

and

single argon colossus : 6 wins
single xenon colossus : 24 wins

my opinion on that

- there is only a slim chance left, that in my actual game chances of
"good race" against "bad race" are 50:50
-> to check: player vs. "good race"

- if player fleet changes (i own about 20 M2) probability it is possibly only in a factor strengthening the bad guys


in next step i will repeat my last night's test and see if it returns the same result and then change player fleet (cheat some M2 / destroy some m2)for test - i'll see if i can turn up shield/hull info as well
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