OOS Combat Resolution (Was: OOS Missile firing test.)

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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wyvern11
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Post by wyvern11 » Thu, 21. Jun 07, 09:21

i'm pretty sure, that for capitals max loadout *is* at least near the default loadout

but i see your point that it is necessary to set up an exact copy of the ship as opponent for starters
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Post by ttl » Thu, 21. Jun 07, 10:09

I would like to focus on the fact that the M2 inflicted serious damage with just one BFAA installed. In my mind this means that the the OOS damage is largely determined by weapon generator, or just hardcoded by ship type, which is really stupid when Ego claims to support modding. Would be nice to know quantitatively what happens when guns are increased. The problem is likely that the M2 can pretty much wipe out the pirate base in one "OOS shot" with just the BFAA.

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Post by jlehtone » Thu, 21. Jun 07, 10:23

ttl wrote:I would like to focus on the fact that the M2 inflicted serious damage with just one BFAA installed.
I would not put too much weight on bit that without repeating the test. I'm not sure any more how long it took to beat the shield, it just felt quick. Wyvern's lack of two BPPC appeared to make a slight difference too and that would contradict the previous.

I had once Hydra with 8 BPBE (and 1 AHEPT) and for some reason it took a long time to cut the hull of Pirate Nova OOS, while shield remained low easily. 6 BHEPT + 2 BPE performs much better. Too much randomness.
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Post by wyvern11 » Thu, 21. Jun 07, 12:01

@ttl

the BFAA - was it the only weapon *installed* or was it the only weapon *on board*

i thought that there was a discussion in german forum about that it sometimes looks in OOS fights that only one weapon is installed but others are used as well (might have been in correspondence with X2 and AEGIS/MEFOS ?!?!)
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Post by jlehtone » Thu, 21. Jun 07, 12:48

wyvern11 wrote:the BFAA - was it the only weapon *installed* or was it the only weapon *on board*
It was the only weapon installed and on board. Just having it on board was not enough to get the "Attack .." command running, it had to be installed, but once the "Attack .." passed its initial tests, it was possible to uninstall the gun without interrupting the command. AFAIK, uninstalled weapon on board did no damage, but maybe I did not wait long enough.
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Post by wyvern11 » Fri, 22. Jun 07, 08:47

yesterday i ran a homebrewed script to check the outcome of N "identical"
battles of "identical" opponents - startet it as a bar brawl all ships in one location

ten tries - looked much like 50:50 (4 colossus each)

thirty tries - like 40:60 in xenon favor (6 colossus each)

I need to clear up some messy parts and fix some stuff but it looks like you cannot really state outcomes with less than 50 replays. to do this, i have to set up npc-race-ships, because being told, that some 300 carriers of yours are unter attack is really annoying :lol:

man, i lost more than 300 carriers yesterday - but it was fun to see

dunno why test with docked vs. no-docked fighters had such a different outcome !!
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Post by jlehtone » Sun, 24. Jun 07, 09:36

For reason or other, Pirate Base in New Income went hostile. Kind of sad, because I did like its position and I still want to hack the Anarchy Port. Well, another test.

Stripped all guns from K and installed only one AIRE on it. All turrets to 'None'. The Base has four Lasetowers, so told the K to attack one. Neither side makes permanent shield damage. One might see occasionally a small dent, quickly recharged, while watching the OOS, or right after starting to watch OOS (after minute of not watching). Thus, the weapon does indeed matter. The damage rate of weapons must exceed the shield recharge rate of the target.

For next Base, I'll keep the AIRE installed and fill the hold with other weapons. The NPC does not keep more than one weapon installed in turret if no enemies are near. But that is in sector. If the turret scripts are frozen OOS, then NPC ships do not install/uninstall weapons OOS. If they don't and each turret has only minimal guns by default, then the hold contents does count.

Added 2,000 Wasps into the K. No real difference. It seems that there can be several seconds between player ship "making a hit" (while watching OOS), and AIRE or Wasp does less damage than Lasertower/Base shields recharge. And Lasertower does less than 6*1 GJ recharges.

The '!fight.attack.target' script (which I assume to run on 'Attack ..') does indeed check at start if the ship has "laserenergy". Ship has "laserenergy", if it has a gun installed). The same script makes the attack run (at least on Capital ships) by either firing a missile or by firing guns.

Then I replaced the single AIRE with 8 BHEPT on K and targeted the Base. Missed first hit, but had to wait some seconds (watching) before another hit removed 59% of shield (1,8 GJ) and 20% of hull (300k points). Next observable hit (again several seconds later) wiped the minimal recharged shield and about 600k hull points. Third hit killed the Base. 8 BHEPT on M2 ship against a station.

[Edit] That missed first BHEPT hit. It took 1,2 GJ out. By specs, 8 BHEPTS can do that in 10 seconds. [/Edit]

According to specs, 8 BHEPTs could do 1,8 GJ of shield damage or 300k of hull damage in 15 seconds. If the "hit" would occur only once per 30 seconds, then the observed damages would "match". The downside is that almost anything should then kill nearly anything.

Hyperion was moved to same coordinates as hostile Lasertower. Turrets on "Attack all enemies". It looked like the lasertower attacked the M7. Changed the M7 to "Standby" form "None". No reaction. Only the change to "Attack .." activated the M7 and then the LT died quickly.


On guns and missiles the damage values are different. Could it be that their "chance to hit" would differ too?
Last edited by jlehtone on Mon, 25. Jun 07, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OOS Missile firing test.

Post by newdean » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 02:58

jlehtone wrote:OOS combat report:

Other observations:
* Only small fraction of Xenon ships has Missile firing probability other than 0%.
* Strong patrol ships are known to die, but not often.
* Xenon Patrols and Pirates can carry Hammerheads.
* Xenon Patrols and Pirates can quickly destroy even 5--7 GJ of shields.


All that seems suddenly very logical. Missiles.
Thanks for your test jhetone. It's great to get some more visibility into the murky workings of OOS combat. But I think there are some other explanations for why OOS patrol ships sometimes (but don't usually) die beyond hammerheads:

1. Ps can carry a wide variety of weapons, up to GPPCs. What they carry does seem randomized. So sometimes they're much tougher OOS than others.

2. There appears to be some randomness in what targets are attacked by the various ships in the patrol. If they gang up on even a TL (or M7) but the M7 starts knocking off the weaker ships first, the M7 or TL can get wiped out, because if took out the weaker rather than stronger ships in turn-based combat.

3. The combat resolution table has some randomness to it.

4. If you wait long enough, you can have simultaneous attacks by multiple patrols or P patrols plus pirates, or successive attacks, the second occurring while your shields are low from the first encounter.

The missile loadout may also be a big randomizer, but there are also other things at work leading to ocassional OOS patrol losses.
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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 09:00

I did 50 tries with 4 xenon colossi against 4 argon colossi - was near 50:50 - ran quite good offscreen

will add some heavy missiles and change firing probability next - any reasonable-to-hack proposions`?
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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 09:31

The 'fight.attack.target' calls a 'acp.*' subroutine with all ships that are not M1, M2, or TL. Could that lead to difference in OOS for Capital ships? Elephant did beat Hyperion when halo*** tested OOS.

The 8 BHEPT M2 (K) seemed to inflict 30 seconds worth of damage twice in a row on Pirate Base. Average Xenon P does not have full weapon compliment, but if NPC shoots first, then lone TL patrols should drop like flies. Could the rate of fire be different on different ships? Colossus with 12*GPPC+8*BPPC might make 22.2 GJ of shield damage in 30 seconds, if the weapon specs are really used for OOS. One would have to target a Dock to proof that.

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Post by Cith » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 12:39

jlehtone wrote: My hypothesis about the OOS combat resolution is that it resembles D&D combat:
* Roll dice to see if you use a missile
* Roll dice to see if you hit
* Roll dice to see how much damage that hit did
* Recharge your own shields
I've hear many players say that, including myself. Dice are the way to go for OOS.
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Post by misioooo » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 12:43

And dice = save/load dice ;)

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Post by wyvern11 » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 12:45

If a colossus scores an OOS-hit to another colossus i noticed three outcomes more frequent than others :

1. instant kill
2. shields down to about a half
3. shields down to approx 5-8%

will test one-on-one-situations maybe this evening

EDIT: is orientation taken into account?
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Post by ttl » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 13:03

From these reports, my hypothesis is :

Damage per "OOS shot" is a random number from 0 to maximum damage dealt in 30s (OOS time step). This gives typical values as reported by jlehtone.

However, three questions remain :

1) What is the role of ship weapon energy and weapon generator?
2) Is there a hardcoded ship type factor?
3) Is there a difference between RoF and damage/shot? Since there have been reports of decreasing RoF, and correspondingly increasing damage causing OOS unbalance.

Missiles are very much a secondary issue, imo, compared to guns.

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Post by misioooo » Mon, 25. Jun 07, 13:34

I can only speculate on pt. 3.

If in OOS is taken damage/30s and damage is between 0 and 100%... Then if u reduce RoF and increase damage the formula will give different results. Or maybe it is taken like that:
1. Damage of one shot - taken from 0 to 100%.
2. AFTER 1 is calculated damage/30s...

From what i have read ship speed and energy does not matter in OOS. Only big guns really matter (even when you equip all GPPCs agains bunch of M5/M4/M3... IS u will loose (cant hit them with GPPC) in OOS - they will do better than weaker but faster weapons.

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